Diluted Benefit of Pass Travel

[UpperDeck]

Wondering how many on this forum give much consideration to the "benefit" of standby pass travel privileges.

As most know, when AC bestowed upon the pilot group the benefit of priority with the B1, there was some negative reaction ( even within the pilot group) amongst those who worked holidays etc just to get a C1 now bumped by a B1 regardless of seniority.

The issue now is the brilliant idea by "someone" to use the B1 pass as a reward to "partner employees", for example...employees of a hotel group and car rental agency.

There are increasing reports of "issues" relating to these non-AC employees seated in "J" failing to understand and respect the protocols of pass travel. And, of course, a LOT of resentment from that FA with 30 years who worked Xmas for a C1 "thank you" who is bumped by a "wet behind the ear" linen manager from the local Sheraton.

In another thread, there is discussion about the perceived inadequacies of the current pilot bargaining agent. I wonder to what extent the blame can better be attributed to a "culture of compliance"; employees are not being respected because they permit themselves to be disrespected.

At what point does collective action by aligned employees regardless of function become compelled?

A few years ago, I posted my belief that employers that resented "seniority rights" would seek to undermine the principle of seniority incrementally; small steps to isolate employee groups and pit one against the other.

In my opinion, there is ample evidence that is occurring.....and the slope is slippery!

[Turbofan]

Commuters are the only ones left using C2 passes nowadays.  Most other employees have enough B1’s and C1’s that they never revert to a C2.

One of the reasons they have done this is to attract new applicants.  Instead of paying them they simply handed them someone else’s pass benefit.

The majority of the time commuters, 25-30 years of service in cases, travel behind the last person hired.  Now I just learned some aren’t even employees.

It’s an absolute slap in the face.  But the company couldn’t care less.  They might start to care if it impacts pilot attraction and retention though.  People are starting to get wise to no commuter policy and bottom of the pass travel.  The main bases are too expensive for new hires.

How do you know they are handing out higher priority passes to “partner companies”?  Any proof?

 

[UpperDeck]

Turbo.....

A new forum appeared in Facebook for input on the use of B1 passes. The in-charge has the PIL with the listing of contingent pax and priority. There is more than one report of non-AC employees disclosing publicly that they were travelling on a pass.  Obviously, there is a justified reluctance to be critical of one's employer and to divulge confidential information. I can reasonably say that I confirmed the info I received from another source.

I have a Delta pilot neighbour. He's Atlanta based. He was discussing the arrangements for confirmed travel for commuters ( ending soon) and their ability to "book" a jump seat. Seemed like a major difference from the approach of AC.

You probably know that recently, it was decided that cabin crew could access the spare cabin jump-seat when available for domestic ; cross-border ; and, int'll flights. An FA presented herself to the gate agent requesting the cabin jumpseat. The agent stated that jump seats were only for pilots. Wisely, the FA chose not to argue BUT.....why should she have been put in that position?

Respectfully.....I urge others to "get on board". These trifling matters that seemingly have such little individual impact are but stepping stones and must be recognized. The chipping away at "your" foundation will ultimately undermine  your home.

[deicer]

When you retire, your seniority disappears.  It happens to retired pilots too.

https://aircanada-sos.com/

[UpperDeck]

53 minutes ago, deicer said:

When you retire, your seniority disappears.  It happens to retired pilots too.

https://aircanada-sos.com/

I was of the understanding that AC retirees also received a certain number of C1 passes and their years of service were recognized in boarding priority.

If you retired with 30 years you boarded ahead of an active employee with 28 years if boarding with the same pass ie; C2.

Canadian treated retirees differently.

Am I wrong?

[Falken]

I hate the standby so much now I just buy a ticket! (NO frustration worrying about getting on)

[Kip Powick]

1 hour ago, Falken said:

I hate the standby so much now I just buy a ticket! (NO frustration worrying about getting on)

Ditto.....

[Seeker]

Well, it's fine if you only travel once or twice per year but if you're a commuter travelling 4-6 times per month the calculation becomes a little harder to justify.

[Kip Powick]

20 minutes ago, Seeker said:

Well, it's fine if you only travel once or twice per year but if you're a commuter travelling 4-6 times per month the calculation becomes a little harder to justify.

Two trips so far and number three  coming up near the end of this month.  Fourth will be  mid-March. Two scheduled for September /October and another two in December 2023. I know it is not like a monthly commute  but my reasoning is that I want to get "there" at a specific time, and don't want to be sitting in a terminal praying I get on a flight.

While employed, my wife and I used passes once on Canadian...YYZ to YOW....and they lost our luggage 

[UpperDeck]

I confess....the older I get...etc.

However, pre-Covid I flew almost every other month on pairings with my wife. On one occasion, I was waving goodbye to a full flight when my name was called because of a "lost pax". Great experiences!

On a brief vacation, we packed 2 bags each....one to use if we were getting on a SB flight; the other if we did not!!

We got pleasure from the journey itself never quite certain where we'd end up.

I remember recently (pre-Covid) being in the Int'll Priority lounge and we met up with a pilot and his wife heading to ZRH for a skiing holiday. We were listed on the same flight. When it closed, they were in PY and we were in Y. We asked the agent to de-plane us and we switched to Munich and got seats in J.

It's not the destination....and it's passes that made that all possible; passes and employment by AC.

 

[deicer]

15 hours ago, UpperDeck said:

I was of the understanding that AC retirees also received a certain number of C1 passes and their years of service were recognized in boarding priority.

If you retired with 30 years you boarded ahead of an active employee with 28 years if boarding with the same pass ie; C2.

Canadian treated retirees differently.

Am I wrong?

You are correct with regards to seniority if all are using C2.  Even with the C1, your chances of boarding are greatly reduced because of the vast number of B passes out there.

So even if your seniority is well above 3 decades, your seniority is effectively negated.

All retirees are in the same boat.  You dedicate your life to a career, and one of the best 'benefits' of the job are pulled from under you when you can finally make use of it.

[Jaydee]

17 hours ago, Falken said:

I hate the standby so much now I just buy a ticket! (NO frustration worrying about getting on)

Same here…I just buy a full fare ticket and haven’t used a pass in years as they are basically useless.

[Maverick]

37 minutes ago, Jaydee said:

Same here…I just buy a full fare ticket and haven’t used a pass in years as they are basically useless.

Same here, I've been at WJ for almost 25 years. I've done standby maybe 10 times in all that time. Not worth the stress to me.

[st27]

Just as a heads up on pass travel… this situation maybe known to others but caught me by surprise …. I was operating a flight YUL-GVE (the flight originated in YZ with the same flight number) My wife, an f/a with about 40 yrs seniority was joining me.

During boarding, the IC came to the flight deck and mentioned that my wife wasn’t in J but more junior cons were. I went up to the desk to find out what was going on. As it turned out, since the flight was a through flight and the cons (a ramp attendant with about 18 months seniority and his partner) had been boarded in Toronto with seats for YZ-GVE and the agent couldn’t move them out of J in YUL to make room for a more senior employee. He even phoned a supervisor to clarify. He wasn’t happy with the policy (neither was I!) but there was nothing he could do about it.

HHHMMM

 

[Guest1]

47 minutes ago, Jaydee said:

Same here…I just buy a full fare ticket and haven’t used a pass in years as they are basically useless.

Ditto...

[moeman]

19 hours ago, UpperDeck said:

I was of the understanding that AC retirees also received a certain number of C1 passes and their years of service were recognized in boarding priority.

If you retired with 30 years you boarded ahead of an active employee with 28 years if boarding with the same pass ie; C2.

Yes. It was 4 until this January. Bumped up to 6 C1's annually now. Active employees get 12.

[UpperDeck]

2 hours ago, st27 said:

Just as a heads up on pass travel… this situation maybe known to others but caught me by surprise …. I was operating a flight YUL-GVE (the flight originated in YZ with the same flight number) My wife, an f/a with about 40 yrs seniority was joining me.

During boarding, the IC came to the flight deck and mentioned that my wife wasn’t in J but more junior cons were. I went up to the desk to find out what was going on. As it turned out, since the flight was a through flight and the cons (a ramp attendant with about 18 months seniority and his partner) had been boarded in Toronto with seats for YZ-GVE and the agent couldn’t move them out of J in YUL to make room for a more senior employee. He even phoned a supervisor to clarify. He wasn’t happy with the policy (neither was I!) but there was nothing he could do about it.

HHHMMM

 I was with my wife(working) starting in YYZ through YUL to GVA and I was concerned about losing my seat in YUL to anyone other than revenue. I received re-assurance and was able to assist the Captain's wife ( he was brand new to the 330) by speaking to the agent in YUL who wasn't familiar with the rules regarding thru-flights. It sure helped on the way back as well.

[Airband]

On 2/10/2023 at 9:22 AM, UpperDeck said:

A few years ago, I posted my belief that employers that resented "seniority rights" would seek to undermine the principle of seniority incrementally; small steps to isolate employee groups and pit one against the other.

In my opinion, there is ample evidence that is occurring.....and the slope is slippery!

Appears there's been some grit laid down...

[FA@AC]

23 minutes ago, Airband said:

Appears there's been some grit laid down...

Yes, some changes were announced this week.

[Turbofan]

And the pilot B1's will end in a few weeks.

This still doesn't address that commuters are for the most part traveling bottom of the list regardless of YOS.

 

[Tango Foxtrot]

It shouldn't even be legal for pilots to commute on standby passes. Given the nature of their jobs,  travel should be positive space and included in their duty day. Airlines sell pos tickets for less than an employee traveling on a pass, dead head crews all over the place,  what would it hurt to plan flight crew's travel to work . 

  A lot of stress would be averted.  

 

[J.O.]

This will probably make me unpopular but I see it like this. Is (insert airline name here) also going to be responsible to provide me a clear highway for my commute from Abbotsford to YVR, or Guelph to YYZ? Where does it all end? When one chooses their place to live, one is responsible to get themselves to work. And also, commuting is a choice - deadheading isn't. 

Edited May 18, 2023 by J.O.

[Turbofan]

For me commuting is a choice.  And from that perspective I agree with you.

With the caveat that Air Canada unilaterally made all commuters life more difficult when they changed pass travel priority.

With that said that doesn't apply IMO to the pilots hired since 2012.  It goes to some of the identified factors of the Colgan crash.  No one can afford to live in Air Canada's 2 largest bases as a new hire.  Flat pay is 4 years long.  When it was 2 people used debt to get to other side.  4 years is too long for that option.  

You could just respond.  You took the job that is your problem.  The problem with that argument is AC knows it does not pay enough for their new hires to live on base.  They know full well most can't.  They know full well one of the consequences of taking away new hire pay is it forces commuting.  

Poor ( as in broke) commuters at that.  Broke enough to need to cut corners.

The lack of any kind of empathy for the problem we created.  I'm including myself.  Is partly why ACPA no longer exists.  Why the bottom half of the seniority list is so angry, not at just my demographic, but the company as well.

I note the four positive responses to the post above.  That attitude is why we as a generation are not well liked.

We created a problem for the next generation.  And yet we lack the insight to see it.

 

 

[FA@AC]

And yet employees other than pilots and FAs somehow live on low pay while based at YVR and YYZ.  I hope that soon changes, but pilots and FAs are the only employees for whom it's at all realistic to commute.  I don't think that should entitle us to travel benefits that other employees don't get. 

[Turbofan]

Who said anything about travel benefits no one else gets?  If you are referring to B1's.  We couldn't care less.

I am talking about pay.  These pilots are not 20 year olds living with parents.  They are 30 something's feeding their children.  They have already worked in the industry for a decade or more.

It about pay

The diluted C2 just adds insult to injury. The pile on impact is too much.  I suspect this applies to FA's as well.  

An young FA has other options.  A pilot who just invested 130k and 10 years not so much.

What I am saying is the anger at WestJet is within AC.  Labor strife is heading our way very rapidly. Its industry wide within the profession