Diluted Benefit of Pass Travel

[FA@AC]

32 minutes ago, Turbofan said:

Who said anything about travel benefits no one else gets?

This thread is about travel benefits.  It was suggested upthread that pilots who choose to commute should be given positive space passes to do so.

There's plenty of pay discussion on other threads.

[Turbofan]

I took your comments as directed at me.  

As a side note you really can tell this forum is an older generation.

I have a story for you.  EWR hotel shuttle.  I just listened to the conversation.  Our FA's were talking to a very young EWR based FA from a regional.  The young new hire FA was on reserve and heading back to the hotel and talking about how she didn't think her meal money was sufficient. The conversation went something like this.

AC FA. Where are you based.

US Regional FA.  EWR.

AC FA.  Well you don't get meal money at home base.

US Regional FA.  I get a hotel room as well.

AC FA.  No you don't get any of that at home base.  That's not how it works.

US Regional FA.  I was interviewed for the job in Baltimore.  Why would I pay for hotel and food in EWR?

AC FA.  Still insisting this young FA didn't know the ropes properly yet.  Basically said sweetie that's not how this works.

US Regional.  Look they fly me in for a 4 day stint every week.  I sit in the hotel waiting to be called.  If they call I go to work.  If they don't I sit around the pool.  Then they fly me home.

Why would I pay to be at work?

AC FA silence.

Times have changed folks. 

Airlines in the US have adapted.  If they want people to work in high cost cities they need to do one of two things.  Pay them a living wage or bring them in from elsewhere and house them.

If you do neither you will have high turnover or a revolt. 

 

 

[FA@AC]

24 minutes ago, Turbofan said:

Airlines in the US have adapted.  If they want people to work in high cost cities they need to do one of two things.  Pay them a living wage or bring them in from elsewhere and house them.

If you do neither you will have high turnover or a revolt. 

I think most airlines are thrilled to pieces by high turnover of FAs.  When it comes to pilots, not so much, although AC probably benefits somewhat at the moment from high turnover at other carriers in Canada.

From your story it seems that there's at least one US regional carrier with an enlightened personnel policy, but I don't think such practices are widespread at least so far.  UA bases a lot of its new hire FAs at SFO.  Nearly all of them commute to SFO crash pads on their own dime.  Spirit has a large FA base at FLL which I don't think of as all that an expensive place to live if one is away from the beach, yet scads of their FAs live around MCO where it's cheaper and crash pad it at their base.  

I take your point about current salaries vs. the current cost of living and still high inflation, but it seems to be a problem across most industries currently.

 

[Turbofan]

17 hours ago, FA@AC said:

 

I take your point about current salaries vs. the current cost of living and still high inflation, but it seems to be a problem across most industries currently.

 

Exactly.  Industry either adapts, gets a revolt or they fail.

The first one up was Westjet.  The company chose revolt.  
 

Air Canada is on deck.  Westjet wages, particularly their starting wages, just made Air Canada far far less attractive.

People forced to commute because of discounted wages will not put up with travelling last in line on top of the low wage.  A commuting policy and everything that goes with it will be front and centre as we enter negotiations.

It will happen because the next generation has control.  The next generation is fed up.  
 

As someone in my last few years before retirement.   This is going to be a turbulent and changing period.

[FA@AC]

2 hours ago, Turbofan said:

This is going to be a turbulent and changing period.

It's a cyclical industry.  Might as well make hay while the sun shines.

[neverminds]

A couple of things from someone like myself(albeit senior) from Jazz :

WestJet had a very stagnant career progression to the left seat because of a more Junior demographic, so in order to attract anyone, they had to increase FO pay . Current time to a left seat at WestJet vs AC is 10 years vs 3

[neverminds]

4 minutes ago, neverminds said:

A couple of things from someone like myself(albeit senior) from Jazz :

WestJet had a very stagnant career progression to the left seat because of a more Junior demographic, so in order to attract anyone, they had to increase FO pay . Current time to a left seat at WestJet vs AC is 10 years vs 3

So theoretically, AC could continue to offer **bleep** starting pay because one would be a Captain so much sooner

[Specs]

19 hours ago, neverminds said:

So theoretically, AC could continue to offer **bleep** starting pay because one would be a Captain so much sooner

The Union didn't have to accept that did they?  They could have negotiated better starting pay couldn't they?

[J.O.]

21 hours ago, Specs said:

The Union didn't have to accept that did they?  They could have negotiated better starting pay couldn't they?

Exactly. It’s common knowledge that the union’s approach was always “we don’t negotiate for people who aren’t here yet.”

The company came to the negotiating table with an available bucket of money. Maybe they should have, but given the history, they didn’t care about how is distributed. If anyone should carry the can for the low starting pay, it’s the union. 

[Turbofan]

5 hours ago, J.O. said:

Exactly. It’s common knowledge that the union’s approach was always “we don’t negotiate for people who aren’t here yet.”

 

You are correct that is the thought process that brought us reduced new hire pay, loss of a DB pension and pay cuts for FO’s and RP’s.  
 

However that union no longer exists. It no longer exists because eventually the “people not here yet” gain the majority.

It wasn’t long ago the motto was leave it better than you found it.  It wasn’t always who cares about who comes next.

The company did not come to the union with a bucket of money.  We agreed to cost neutral bargaining.  That left us taking from Peter to pay Paul to get a raise.  We took from the next generation and gave it to ourselves.

[Tango Foxtrot]

Holy thread creep!                                                                                                                                                                            Perhaps the diluted benefit of pass privileges, is mostly the result of all the aircraft being full all the time ? 

 Turbofan, your union is not alone in screwing the people not yet onsite. We all seem to prove that we are willing to eat our children for a few thousand dollars every time we go into contract negotiations.  Allowing new hired to work for less than you make, is admitting that you are overpaid. 

 Just to clarify, my previous suggestion was never intended to suggest that flight crew commute for free. The suggestion was that they have a very reasonable positive space fair.  Not for going on vacation, for going to work. 

 Try working for Jazz for 35 years and having Air Canada employees demand that you not have pass privileges at all.  

Edited May 22, 2023 by Tango Foxtrot

[IFG]

 

On 5/21/2023 at 6:13 PM, J.O. said:

Exactly. It’s common knowledge that the union’s approach was always “we don’t negotiate for people who aren’t here yet.” ....

21 hours ago, Turbofan said:

.... It wasn’t long ago the motto was leave it better than you found it.  It wasn’t always who cares about who comes nex ....

That attitude is fairly widespread, J.O., & not just at AC either, but it's not universal (see above). IMHO, it isn't just short-sighted in the practical sense, it's simply unethical. Those who are fortunate enough to have collective bargaining owe it to anybody who would be bound by the contract to fairly represent their interests. Unfortunately, that standard doesn't always prevail. And inevitably there are consequences.

Concessionary bargaining is always tough. The sad thing here is there are honest arguments for preserving longer-term payscales as much as possible - for the benefit of everybody including the yet-to-join cohort, but avowedly selling out your future members is predictably toxic.

In the end, though, you get the representation you elect, and there the responsibility lies.

Cheers, IFG 

[UpperDeck]

On 5/18/2023 at 10:41 PM, Turbofan said:

Who said anything about travel benefits no one else gets?  If you are referring to B1's.  We couldn't care less.

I am talking about pay.  These pilots are not 20 year olds living with parents.  They are 30 something's feeding their children.  They have already worked in the industry for a decade or more.

It about pay

......

An young FA has other options.  A pilot who just invested 130k and 10 years not so much.

...

 

Everything is perspective, isn't it?

I just spoke to a young....very young....regional pilot who did her training at Willow Run near Detroit. She was on her way to an interview with Delta. She WILL be hired. Do you know how much she'll be earning? And in 5 years or less, she'll be in the left seat. There goes that 130 k and 10 year story.

Any idea how many FA's are single mothers? There are a LOT and this is definitely not a high-paying profession as you must know. How do they manage?

Commuting vs YYZ costs? My wife drives 2 1/2 hours to work. Within that radius, there are many affordable communities. One must pursue options.

In the winter, getting to and from a southern winter residence for work can be a stressful struggle but that's a consequence of the exercise of free will.

Back to AC pilot wages briefly. I cannot say what any occupation is "worth".

I will say that there are many competent lawyers who invested in 4 years of university and 4 1/2 years obtaining admission to the Bar ( paid minimum wages for 1 year articles) and thereafter chose to practise in a small town struggling to net $100k a year.

Family physicians? Same length schooling but in our small town, an ER doctor is guaranteed $360,000 for a 40 hour week. No overhead.

So...should the pilot who worked his way "up" aircraft types and from right to left; right to left.....should that pilot be disgruntled about now "only" getting $275-$315k per year?

Who's to say?

 

 

 

[Turbofan]

11 hours ago, UpperDeck said:

 

Everything is perspective, isn't it?

I just spoke to a young....very young....regional pilot who did her training at Willow Run near Detroit. She was on her way to an interview with Delta. She WILL be hired. Do you know how much she'll be earning? And in 5 years or less, she'll be in the left seat. There goes that 130 k and 10 year story.

 

 

 

 

Excellent.  As soon as that happens in Canada the complaining will end.   You are actually highlighting the vast difference between the US reality and Canada’s.  Hence the agitation from young Canadians vs the young lady you refer to.

For now though it’s a 30k job and 130K in debt to start.  7-10 years later, after gathering 4-5000 hours, you get hired at AC for 60K and 4 years of flat pay.  At AC many pilots are hired in their mid thirties.  Think about it.  40 before they make a decent wage.  Why would someone spend 130k for a decent job 15-20 years down the road? This is exactly why there is a pilot shortage.  It hasn’t made sense to become one.
 

I wrote earlier.  If the company won’t pay a living wage in the city you are based.  They then need to find a way to get you to where they need you.

That was not a statement pertaining to just pilots.  
 

[Kip Powick]

The times are really changing.

Left DND flying for 55K a year (after 28 years)

WD 1st year on probation at 38K (age 45)

2nd year full salary at about 78K

Over to CP..at about 95K

Retired out of AC 2002 at 115K (age 60)

Thank goodness for RRSP and other good investments.

[Rich Pulman]

10 hours ago, Kip Powick said:

The times are really changing.

Left DND flying for 55K a year (after 28 years)

WD 1st year on probation at 38K (age 45)

2nd year full salary at about 78K

Over to CP..at about 95K

Retired out of AC 2002 at 115K (age 60)

Thank goodness for RRSP and other good investments.

Do you know what this all means? Yes, indeed, you are older than my mom!

[Turbofan]

19 hours ago, Kip Powick said:

The times are really changing.

Left DND flying for 55K a year (after 28 years)      

WD 1st year on probation at 38K (age 45)              87.5k 1987 assumed

2nd year full salary at about 78K                             172.8K 1988 assumed

Over to CP..at about 95K                                          191.7K 1990 assumed

Retired out of AC 2002 at 115K (age 60)

Thank goodness for RRSP and other good investments.

Kip,

I inflation adjusted your numbers to today.  I show the assumed year.  I may or may not have got it exact but hopefully close.

Todays new hire numbers using 78hours.  

Year 1 - 60.8k    They make 69% of your salary

Year 2 - 66.5k   They make 38% of your salary

Year 3 - 75.8k    

Year 4 - 84.9K   They make 44% of your salary

 

Its a common misconception that things are the same as the past. Times have actually changed drastically.  The cost of licensing has far outpaced inflation. This combined with reduced compensation makes a career in aviation far less desirable than when you or I started.  

Presto.  Pilot Shortage