Can Ac Ever Overcome It's Negative Image?

[boestar]

Boxes marked FRAGILE are to be thrown underhand only.

[Zan Vetter]

I don't think they should be fired. Quite frankly, that's ridiculous and a giant overreaction. Dropping bags is lazy, disrespectful to the passengers, causes damage, costs the airline money, makes the entire company look bad, and when caught on film is indefensible. However, stupid as it is, you can probably get those guys onside with a reprimand of some sort. People make mistakes.

Honestly I wish the airline would fire the unprepared, unmotivated, surly, sloppy, and the unhelpful. Stupid as this is, they appear guilty of little more than trying to save time. Obviously they went too far.

[Thebean]

It may be a case of setting up a scenario for failure.

It's easy to point fingers here, but what are the core reasons for this occurring?

A switch to hyper dense seating without allowances being made for normal per person carry on baggage stowage?

Systems and procedures not designed or implemented to deal with the above?

Airports greedily collecting AIF's but not providing simple bag chute infrastructure at gates THEY, and NOT the airline, own and control?

Turn times not sufficiently adjusted to allow for loading and unloading of the additional 100 people on the high density aircraft?

Management demanding OTP regardless of the above issues?

It's easy to go after the little guy who's essentially been set up to fail, but what about Poindexter in the head shed who came up with the scheme in the first place without rolling through a comprehensive analysis of what would probably occur in the real world if it were implemented.

Too many of those guys have no understanding of what the term "unintended consequences" means.

It's easy to calculate the revenue stream of charging for the first bag, it's a little tougher to quantify the direct and indirect costs of the policy. The devil is in the detail.

Getting it right might actually mean Poindexter has to head down to the airport, meet, and get input from those on the frontlines who actually have to make the system work day in and day out. That might entail Poindexter having to buy a pair of steel toed work boots and spending a few mornings on the ramp getting his or her hands dirty.

They don't teach that at MBA school.....

They say management gets the union they deserve. Though you'll rarely see me defend unions, in this case, it may very well be a case where they actually have a pot to wizz in.

[conehead]

"The employees involved have been suspended and advised that their employment will be terminated pending the outcome of our investigation," said Air Canada spokeswoman Angela Mah in an email statement to CBC News.

So why bother with an investigation? See Bean's post above, that's where the fault lies...

[Bryon Mask]

If you want to be terrorized by excessive carry on baggage fly Allegiant Airways. They are great. From check in to boarding don't even think of carrying anything oversize or overweight. On the positive side ,flights are cheap, they board in record time without the great unwashed bringing bags that probably surpass the excessive weight category as a carry on.

Oh as an anecdote: they enforce it

[UpperDeck]

See Bean's post?

All he did was repeat what had already been written by Moeman a few posts earlier in the thread.

Sorry---not throwing stones at Bean (this time!) but it drives me nuts sometimes when I read a post and barely a few paragraphs later, seem the same comments repeated as though someone has had an epiphany.

One can go through the Malaysia thread and see the same trend---every few pages!

Early on, someone referenced the Payne Stewart incident suggesting the deprivation of oxygen as a possible explanation for the aircraft's flight to nowhere ; a suggestion quickly dismissed. How long thereafter until hypoxia became the "flavor of the day"?

Rant over. Carry on.

[Thebean]

See Bean's post?

All he did was repeat what had already been written by Moeman a few posts earlier in the thread.

Sorry---not throwing stones at Bean (this time!) but it drives me nuts sometimes when I read a post and barely a few paragraphs later, seem the same comments repeated as though someone has had an epiphany.

One can go through the Malaysia thread and see the same trend---every few pages!

Early on, someone referenced the Payne Stewart incident suggesting the deprivation of oxygen as a possible explanation for the aircraft's flight to nowhere ; a suggestion quickly dismissed. How long thereafter until hypoxia became the "flavor of the day"?

Rant over. Carry on.

You made the erroneous assumption that I actually read anything posted more than one post previous to mine.

[Johnny]

This guy will get fired and he will be back to work in no time. This passenger should have grabbed the attention of a F/A and they should have informed the Captain.

I promise you I would have been on the bridge in a split second. It is heart warming the compassion here, however there is no excuse for treating passenger belongings with this disrespect.

Find me (one) job in customer service that would tolerate this behavior?

[props2you]

Both Bean and Moeman made good points. Why does the ordinary joe get the sack and not the exec who came up with T7's with "steerage" class?

[Kip Powick]

It was about my second overseas flight on the A310 with WD and we arrived back in YYZ. Crew baggage was always kept in a separate baggage area near the tail and we could actually go outside and wait for our bag and then walk it in ...instead of waiting for it at a carousal . I went out to wait for my bag and notice a baggage guy was drop-kicking, (like a third down in football), our bags from the tail compartment onto a conveyer belt that didn't reach the aircraft.

I went over to the belt, just as another bag was kicked, missed the conveyer belt and tumbled to the tarmac.

I yelled up to the guy playing football and said "Hey, a$4oll what the hell do you think you're doing?"...He wouldn't answer and went about lowering the bags the proper way, to a guy who scurried up the belt, stood on the end of the conveyer belt, and hand bombed the bags to the belt

I got my bag and went home....was home about an hour when the Chief Pilot said he wanted to see me in his office about a baggage incident where the baggage handler, (contract guy), had filed a grievances against me and I was to see him before I left on my next pairing, about two days hence.

I worried a lot, never had worked with a Union and like all "newbies" was on probation for 6 months so felt my foray into the airline industry might be short lived.

The day came when I appeared in the Chief Pilot's office. He asked me what I wanted. I mentioned that he was the one that called me.....about a baggage incident. He thought for a moment and then remembered.

He said , "Is it true you called a baggage handler an a$4oll while he was working?"

I said it was and explained what I saw...he held his hand up and stopped me and said, "You know I had to call the head of this guys Union over this."

Well here it comes, I thought...so I said what happened.....

The Chief Pilot said, " The head of the union said he would talk to this a$4oll and tell him his grievance was a load of $Kit and if he was ever reported again, he would probably be out of a job".....Without pausing the Chief Pilot looked at me and asked, "You enjoying the 310?"

Two hours later I was on my way to Gatwick.

[inchman]

Your missing the point Dave. It doesn't matter whether had 1, 4 or 44 bags to carry. That was not his fault. Blame the agent and FA's who let him board that way in the first place at his departure station.

The point is this Agent was assigned a job to assist which was most probably a J-class passenger and he basically told a guy in a wheel chair to go stuff it half way through to completion.

It's employees and attitudes like this that give AC a black eye every time they show up for work. Fire the idiot and make an example of him. We all know the union would no doubt grieve it and get him back ( and thats a whole other bag of BS but I digress) but at least AC will have made its point the next time someone thinks of trying this kind of stunt.

We seem to agree on the root cause... the first person who had a chance to stop him from carrying on too many bags either was in awe, felt sorry for, or was bullied into allowing him to bust the rules. And every person thereafter.... security, gate agents, flight attendants... who had a chance went through the same thing, probably faced, in addition, with "Lufthansa lets me do it" or "The agent upstairs said it was ok".

The agent who finally said "No way" was the scapegoat for everyone else's impotence. Unfortunately, it was after the gentleman had been well trained to think that carrying 4 bags on an aircraft, when he couldn't even handle them himself, was ok.

I heard that that aircraft was so full of excess baggage and the ramp guys had to carry a heavy scooter down the stairs and were so sore from doing so, they resorted to dropping bags off the bridge.

[UpperDeck]

You made the erroneous assumption that I actually read anything posted more than one post previous to mine.

Well actually---I didn't make that assumption! You assume I didn't give you credit for "originality". Far be it for me to accuse you of plagiarism. Much more reasonable to believe that you share a characteristic in common with many others----participate to post not to read and learn!

Insert smiley face.

[Thebean]

• Quote

  Well actually---I didn't make that assumption! You assume I didn't give you credit for "originality". Far be it for me to accuse you of plagiarism. Much more reasonable to believe that you share a characteristic in common with many others----participate to post not to read and learn!

  Insert smiley face.

  I read enough earlier in the thread to learn that the 777-300W's are referred to as "Slaveships" which I thought was pretty funny. I could care less about "originality". If someone posted a similar idea earlier, I'd be happy to mail them a gold star. Lets focus on the message, regardless where it came from.

[Johnny]

Both Bean and Moeman made good points. Why does the ordinary joe get the sack and not the exec who came up with T7's with "steerage" class?

Would you feel that way if it was your belongings? This guy's job is to hump the bags, if that means you do it one at a time down the bridge stairs...then hop to it.

Nobody asked his opinion on the HD T7, just do the job you are paid to do.

Or....Tee Ho's is hiring in the terminal, your choice.

[moeman]

Sure, I'd be more than annoyed if it was my bag getting dropped like that, especially if I had no inside knowledge about how something like this would even be contemplated. But I do, so I have a little more compassion for the guys as I know they are faced with so much pressure to not delay a flight for any reason. Under that kind of pressure, and for all of the reasons bean so eloquently stated, common sense might not always prevail. Discipline? Absolutely. But getting fired isn't called for unless these guys have a history of dumb moves.

[st27]

So why desn't AC demand the GTAA install chutes on the sides on the Jetways instead of firing the guy...there is obviously a huge negative public reaction to AC listening to talk radio yesterday. This co. maintains its bad pr by heavy handed actions like this.

And if the carry on baggage issue is to be solved, Transport Canada could expand CATSA's mandate to enforce the sizing regulations. The airline CSA's wouldn't have to take the flack for oversize carryon... it could be done by a gov't agency [which is responsible for cabin safety in the first place]..don't want to check the bag???fine, you don't get through security. This would reduce the # of bags going through the pax screening process, in effect speeding up the process. Trying to deal with excess bags at the gate is just asking for problems and delays. When load factors were lower and seating densities lower, carry on was ok. Now with the load factors and pax attitudes, the industry has to change the process.

[Guest longtimer]

So why desn't AC demand the GTAA install chutes on the sides on the Jetways instead of firing the guy...there is obviously a huge negative public reaction to AC listening to talk radio yesterday. This co. maintains its bad pr by heavy handed actions like this.

And if the carry on baggage issue is to be solved, Transport Canada could expand CATSA's mandate to enforce the sizing regulations. The airline CSA's wouldn't have to take the flack for oversize carryon... it could be done by a gov't agency [which is responsible for cabin safety in the first place]..don't want to check the bag???fine, you don't get through security. This would reduce the # of bags going through the pax screening process, in effect speeding up the process. Trying to deal with excess bags at the gate is just asking for problems and delays. When load factors were lower and seating densities lower, carry on was ok. Now with the load factors and pax attitudes, the industry has to change the process.

Having security screen the bags for size and weight will do nothing to speed up the process, rather it will create another roadblock in the whole screening process and of course require additional staff / scales etc at the screening points. Then of course there is the question of connecting passengers from other countries that would / could be connecting through sterile areas. The airlines must take responsibility to overcome the problem that they have created with increased seating density and checked bag charges.

[st27]

"Having security screen the bags for size and weight will do nothing to speed up the process, rather it will create another roadblock in the whole screening process and of course require additional staff"

Which is a greater roadblock?? Dealing with the bags at security where the customer can return to check in and get rid of his over sized bag or at the gate where arguments and delays occur?

As I said, its time to deal with this problem and start coming up with solutions....like 2 lines at security.. one for people with over sized bags and an express line for pax with single purses/business articles. Maybe customers will get the idea that there is a limit to carry on and people will stop abusing the rules. Reduce the bags and reduce the wait at security.

As for additional staff, there are enough Catsa people right now that check boarding passes at the beginning of the line up..they can deal with the sizing issue and direct passengers into the appropriate line. Station a police officer at this position to cut down on the verbal objections. These guys are on duty anyway at the airport. There are also gate managers that AC has hired. These guys can get their hands dirty and help the process rather than just walking around with a clipboard taking stats. They could deal with the connecting passengers at the gate before boarding starts.

As I mentioned previously, all the stakeholders need to get involved,, GTAA, Transport Canada, not just the airlines. The passenger has to realize there is a limit to carry on and if they want to bring excess baggage, it will cost them.

[Johnny]

CATSA let's see, that is the group that gave a p*pe b@mb back to a passenger and said; "have a nice day" and you want to give them more duties? They are the poster boyz for raging incompetence.

Carry on is up to the individual Airline, not to mention we diffentiate between the "classes" of passenger. Giving the high yield passenger more latitude on the amount of carry-on.

[st27]

Catsa....raging incompetence???? How difficult could it be for them..either the bag would fit in the sizer rig or it wouldn't. The underlying result of reducing carry on bags also benefits aircraft security...less bags to hide stuff in...less bags for Catsa to search [and possibly miss dangerous articles] and less bags going through the screening process reducing wait times. This would make their jobs easier and help the airline.

So far no solutions put forth on this forum...just negativity.

[J.O.]

Airlines have varying standards for the size and number of carry-ons and as Johnny has pointed out, the numbers also vary within an airline depending on the class of seat the passenger has been assigned. Like it or not, this is not a TC / CATSA problem, it belongs with the carriers and it is up to them to come up with an effective fix. Flight crew members make decisions all the time as to what is and is not acceptable from a safety or regulatory standpoint. I fail to see why check-in and gate staff can't do the same. It's part of the job and the sizing templates are at every gate for them to use.

The fact is that if every passenger carries the maximum permitted by Canadian carriers today, there will not be enough room to store all of them. It is time that the carriers deal with this, because their current policies are leading to the baggage dropping incident we saw the other day. On my rouge flight from MCO to YYZ last weekend, they sent at least a dozen bags down to the ramp. At $25 a bag per sector, this should not come as a surprise but a good number of the bags that were brought to the gate wouldn't even fit in the template.

[Innuendo]

Carry on baggage has long since gotten out of hand. People are bringing everything they can as carry on to try to avoid the baggage charges. If they cannot get it on they hope for a free gate check.

The stampede at boarding time to get on to have a chance to use the overhead bins and preserve the foot space is out of control. People seated in the back filling bins in the middle of the aircraft and so on.

It is not Catsa’s responsibility to monitor carry on baggage limits, they can vary by airline and they have enough to do as it is.

The airlines should be controlling the carry on limits but they obviously do not have the staff at the gate to do that.

The Flight Attendants should not have to be baggage humpers and if they are surly after multiple legs per day of dealing with this I don't blame them.

The airlines have to address the issue and not leave it to the frontline troops to work out. It is having an in impact on schedules which is big money not to mention the impact on the traveller.

Obviously I would not like my valuable/delicate gear to take a 20 foot drop but it is more to it than just a simple case of a lazy rampie. I know from experience that some of the stairways on gates are not easy to get up and down with baggage in hand.

(Apologies if I am repeating what has already been said, I wrote this last night and wanted to see it in the morning before posting).

[props2you]

Would you feel that way if it was your belongings? This guy's job is to hump the bags, if that means you do it one at a time down the bridge stairs...then hop to it.

Nobody asked his opinion on the HD T7, just do the job you are paid to do.

Or....Tee Ho's is hiring in the terminal, your choice.

What's the pressure on everybody involved to get the slaveship out on time when it's packed to the gunnels, with everyone straining at the oars? Maybe management has to learn their "bright ideas" don't work without tossing out the niceties. And I'd suggest anyone that expects a baggage smasher to run up and down those stairs with bags in hand needs a visit from an occupational health & safety specialist.

[CanadaEH]

Like it or not, this is not a TC / CATSA problem, it belongs with the carriers and it is up to them to come up with an effective fix. Flight crew members make decisions all the time as to what is and is not acceptable from a safety or regulatory standpoint. I fail to see why check-in and gate staff can't do the same. It's part of the job and the sizing templates are at every gate for them to use.

I agree. The Airports (CSA's) need to do a better job of managing what people are bringing onboard before they get onboard. It's easier said than done as more and more people check in at the kiosks, online, or on their mobile devices and bypass check-in altogether.

When AC and WJ start charging for first bag the increased revenue should more than pay for increased staffing to police baggage limits BEFORE anyone even steps onto the plane. US Airlines have been doing this for years, you'd think we could learn a thing or two and be prepared...

[HOOT]

Not sure why some people are defending these guy's, they were negligent in their duties, end of story. Sorry but that means there will be consequences. Union can spout all they want but sticking up for these guy's belittles the rest of the employees who do their jobs professionally and with pride, which when I last looked was the norm..........