JAZZ and 757

[Homerun]

Dagger, I agree. It will be up to AC to enforce the scope on this one as it's a condition of the CPA. I would hope that Calin is planning to do just as you suggest.

[Guest rozar s'macco]

The reason I as an ACPA pilot am concerned about this, and **bleep** (justifiably, I think) at Jazz pilots for it, is that they seem to know only one direction- down. Flying a similar type to us at a much, much lower rate puts pressure on our wages. Fly a bloody A380 if you want, just don't do it for RJ pay. Simple enough, really.

Furthermore, as an AC employee and not just a pilot, I see our regional partner whose entire infrastructure nay, entire company, is funded (98% as chris stated above) by revenue provided by its agreement with my employer now using that infrastructure not only to generate comically high profitability, but now expansion? Into heavy, and potentially transatlantic vacation flying? Directly in our front yard?

This goes beyond scope. It is the parasite in the early stages of reproduction in an eventual path to cripple the host. Time for some antibiotics...

[CanadaEH]

The reason I as an ACPA pilot am concerned about this, and **bleep** (justifiably, I think) at Jazz pilots for it, is that they seem to know only one direction- down. Flying a similar type to us at a much, much lower rate puts pressure on our wages. Fly a bloody A380 if you want, just don't do it for RJ pay. Simple enough, really.

Furthermore, as an AC employee and not just a pilot, I see our regional partner whose entire infrastructure nay, entire company, is funded (98% as chris stated above) by revenue provided by its agreement with my employer now using that infrastructure not only to generate comically high profitability, but now expansion? Into heavy, and potentially transatlantic vacation flying? Directly in our front yard?

This goes beyond scope. It is the parasite in the early stages of reproduction in an eventual path to cripple the host. Time for some antibiotics...

This has to be the most venomous post I've read in a while.

[dagger]

The reason I as an ACPA pilot am concerned about this, and **bleep** (justifiably, I think) at Jazz pilots for it, is that they seem to know only one direction- down. Flying a similar type to us at a much, much lower rate puts pressure on our wages.

Except this downward pressure can be applied by any number of non-union carriers. So I don't see your point. What if Sunwing, for sake of argument, took on larger aircraft to fulfill a contract? Or Enerjet? Does that not apply the same downward pressure? If anything, Jazz is unionized and its financial success would propel ALPA and the other unions to seek wage increases. Like I said, ACPA is pissing in the wind. Unless AC has legal grounds to oppose this deal, it's going to happen.

[Homerun]

Dagger, ACPA hasn't done anything. There hasn't even been a public statement issued.

[ChicoChico]

On behalf of all the Canadian ex-pat pilots around the world, would you mind stopping that please?

This is a sarcastic remark right? How is it that ACPA is "dumping" 60 plus pilots?

Chico

[blues deville]

I believe he is refering to "age 60+" retiring AC pilots.

bd

[props2you]

The reason I as an ACPA pilot am concerned about this, and **bleep** (justifiably, I think) at Jazz pilots for it, is that they seem to know only one direction- down. Flying a similar type to us at a much, much lower rate puts pressure on our wages. Fly a bloody A380 if you want, just don't do it for RJ pay. Simple enough, really.

Furthermore, as an AC employee and not just a pilot, I see our regional partner whose entire infrastructure nay, entire company, is funded (98% as chris stated above) by revenue provided by its agreement with my employer now using that infrastructure not only to generate comically high profitability, but now expansion? Into heavy, and potentially transatlantic vacation flying? Directly in our front yard?

This goes beyond scope. It is the parasite in the early stages of reproduction in an eventual path to cripple the host. Time for some antibiotics...

It took this sad post to goad me into making my first, after lurking for a long time. Is there anything more emblematic of what the public sees as AC's toxic corporate culture of entitlement than the above?

I assume the OP was equally outraged when AC flew RJ's, which around the world are traditionally flown by regional carriers? The fact is AC could not have bid on the Thomas Cook flying with their wage structure. You've made your bed, now sleep in it. Far better that this flying went to QK than have it go to a direct competitor such as Westjet.

Fact is the management and board at QK have one financial responsibiltiy and its to their unitholders, not QK employees, or AC, or AC employees. No business, whether its widgets or airplanes should rely on one customer for 98% of their revenue. Following your argument, there would be NO opportuntiy for Jazz to diversify their revenue base.

[J.O.]

Before you go getting all righteous, imagine for a minute that another operator's pilots came along and offered to fly feeder routes for Air Canada at 60% of what you make at Jazz. I'd like to see how you would feel about that. If you can't see how flying a B757 for your current wage rate is bad for every career pilot in Canada, you're not really looking at the bigger picture. And if you think TCCI will sign a longer contract if you go after more money, particularly now that they have an agreement at your current rates, you're dreaming.

[props2you]

Before you go getting all righteous, imagine for a minute that another operator's pilots came along and offered to fly feeder routes for Air Canada at 60% of what you make at Jazz. I'd like to see how you would feel about that. If you can't see how flying a B757 for your current wage rate is bad for every career pilot in Canada, you're not really looking at the bigger picture. And if you think TCCI will sign a longer contract if you go after more money, particularly now that they have an agreement at your current rates, you're dreaming.

Righteous, no. Realistic, yes. Lets not kid ourselves that some other outfit wouldn't have stepped in to do this flying at a lower cost. Some seem to be advocating that QK's wage structure rise to reflect AC's. All that would do is ensure that there was an opening wide enough for Westjet, Porter and new entrants to bulldoze right through and demolish AC's business model.

Its pretty disheartening to see this kind of pettiness when everyone knows there's a dartboard in an airline boardroom in Calgary with the Maple Leaf painted in the bullseye.

[John S.]

Before you go getting all righteous, imagine for a minute that another operator's pilots came along and offered to fly feeder routes for Air Canada at 60% of what you make at Jazz. I'd like to see how you would feel about that. If you can't see how flying a B757 for your current wage rate is bad for every career pilot in Canada, you're not really looking at the bigger picture. And if you think TCCI will sign a longer contract if you go after more money, particularly now that they have an agreement at your current rates, you're dreaming.

J.O. There are some advantages to the Jazz pay system and some disadvantages as well. But if it (a) brings more flying to the Jazz pilot group and (b ) the overall pay increases then it can be argued that the advantages outweigh the negatives.

Jazz pilots had to debate long and hard before deciding to adopt the status pay system. At the time it was hoped that it would encourage management to utilize the lower overall cost structure to capture more flying. It was also hoped that bigger aircraft (as in 737's) might been seen in Jazz livery. As you may know there were many had thought the results would never come, at least not before they retired. This past week was the first bit of 'good news' in many years and now we hear our mainline buddies starting to put up a stink.

Well, if your best argument why this deal should be scuttled is that it might affect your next round of negotiations then you had better start preparing for the future. Start thinking outside the box and stop fighting the colour wars.

Finally - a question: how do you know for certain that the agreement is at the "current rates"? Are you positive that wage increases have not been included in the draft proposals?

[J.O.]

Righteous, no. Realistic, yes. Lets not kid ourselves that some other outfit wouldn't have stepped in to do this flying at a lower cost. Some seem to be advocating that QK's wage structure rise to reflect AC's. All that would do is ensure that there was an opening wide enough for Westjet, Porter and new entrants to bulldoze right through and demolish AC's business model.

Its pretty disheartening to see this kind of pettiness when everyone knows there's a dartboard in an airline boardroom in Calgary with the Maple Leaf painted in the bullseye.

You didn't answer my question. How would you feel if the scenario I presented were to play out. Because in fact, that is what just happened to myself and all of my colleagues. Being suddenly unemployed is far more disheartening than hearing that you may be negatively affecting the terms and conditions of career pilots in Canada by your actions as a group. Sorry if you don't like to hear it, but it's how many of your peers are feeling at this moment.

[J.O.]

J.O. There are some advantages to the Jazz pay system and some disadvantages as well. But if it (a) brings more flying to the Jazz pilot group and (b ) the overall pay increases then it can be argued that the advantages outweigh the negatives.

Jazz pilots had to debate long and hard before deciding to adopt the status pay system. At the time it was hoped that it would encourage management to utilize the lower overall cost structure to capture more flying. It was also hoped that bigger aircraft (as in 737's) might been seen in Jazz livery. As you may know there were many had thought the results would never come, at least not before they retired. This past week was the first bit of 'good news' in many years and now we hear our mainline buddies starting to put up a stink.

Well, if your best argument why this deal should be scuttled is that it might affect your next round of negotiations then you had better start preparing for the future. Start thinking outside the box and stop fighting the colour wars.

Finally - a question: how do you know for certain that the agreement is at the "current rates"? Are you positive that wage increases have not been included in the draft proposals?

Hi John, I never suggested the deal be scuttled. And this is not about colour wars, this is about depleting working conditions in our industry. To your question, no I am not certain. I just know how TCCI has recently done business with their last airline. It's understating the facts to say that airline pay increases that affected their costs were not "well received".

[props2you]

You didn't answer my question. How would you feel if the scenario I presented were to play out. Because in fact, that is what just happened to myself and all of my colleagues. Being suddenly unemployed is far more disheartening than hearing that you may be negatively affecting the terms and conditions of career pilots in Canada by your actions as a group. Sorry if you don't like to hear it, but it's how many of your peers are feeling at this moment.

That's because your posing a flawed question. One could just as easily argue that allowing Colgan to operate transborder flights threatens the wages of career pilots in Canada. Where does it end? As to being "suddenly unemployed" are you honestly arguing that this small piece of charter work will threaten current employment levels at AC, or future contact negotiations, in a rebounding economy?

Even if your argument were sound, lets all be honest and admit ACPA is trying to foment trouble based on very different grounds, and that there is no logical reason to try and frame this as a violation of the CPA. And while this ridiculous, never-ending feuding unfolds, the folks in Calgary are laughing themselves silly.

[Guest rozar s'macco]

Firstly, I take back the parasite comment, it was uncalled for and I apologize. Other than that, I stand by my post.

The wage levels at every company affect every other company. I cheered when the WJ pilots negotiated their raises 2 years ago. I love that Lufthansa pilots went on strike to protect their scope. I get angry when I read about deals like this! And it's not because I think the flying belongs to anyone. It is because Thomas Cook just bankrupted SSV, because they couldn't do it cheap enough. They should have been forced to beat a hasty retreat, but instead it took all of 2 days to find another somebody willing to do it cheaper.

Time was when unions like ACPA bargained along the theory that you take care of the top guy, and everything else underneath falls into place. Sometime after 9/11 during the bankruptcies of the early decade, pilot unions began to realize that they had to take a different approach. Raising the bottom, not the top is the only way to halt the downward spiral. This deal flies completely in the face of that, and is insulting to the now former SSV employees. 2 days!

Oh, and dagger, you're not paying attention if you think that what happens at Jazz is viewed and treated with the same magnitude as what happens at Enerjet.

[blues deville]

Returning to the main topic of this thread, I will be watching this $100 million business plan unfold with great interest. How Jazz plans to spool up crews for 6 aircraft for a winter season start by December 15th will interesting to say the least.

bd

[Tango Foxtrot]

At the begining of world war one, pilots of opposing sides waved as they flew past each other. One day one of them shot at another. Things have never been the same.

[Leading Edge]

At the begining of world war one, pilots of opposing sides waved as they flew past each other. One day one of them shot at another. Things have never been the same.

In both World Wars, Pilots had great respect for each other, even on opposing sides. The problem with Pilots today, that they do not respect each other or the "profession". Because of this, all Pilots are now in a downward spiral of reduced living standards. The college is the only answer.

As an ACPA member, I am curious to see what the Jazz guys will negotiate. Hopefully, they negotiate industry standard or better for the 757, I wish them luck! I will not presume that they are going to add to the spiral...

It is unfortunate that Sky Service shutdown, I had heard that they were in trouble some time ago, so I don't think that it was quite the "surprise" that everyone thinks.

[Kip Powick]

The problem with Pilots today, that they do not respect each other or the "profession".

Why? In a few cases the answer is obvious but I'll let others go there.

[countryhick]

Folks, the ink is just barely dry on this agreement. Only a select few know the details of it.

The rumours of SSV problems have been swirling for over a year now. Did Jazz have anything to do with it, not a chance.

A lot of responses have alluded to Jazz pilots doing this contract at current pay rates, not going to happen folks. Our current contract (which expired June '09 btw) was rammed down our throats during CCAA 7 years ago. Negotiations are ongoing, this new agreement will likely form an LOU that will be included with any TA, and that will need to be ratified by the pilot group. There needs to be significant improvements made for that to happen.

CH

[AME]

Something else to think about... If SSV failed because all of their eggs were in one basket, doesn't it make sense that Jazz starts to diversify lest they suffer the same fate?

just a thought

[John S.]

. . . . Time was when unions like ACPA bargained along the theory that you take care of the top guy, and everything else underneath falls into place. Sometime after 9/11 during the bankruptcies of the early decade, pilot unions began to realize that they had to take a different approach. Raising the bottom, not the top is the only way to halt the downward spiral. This deal flies completely in the face of that, and is insulting to the now former SSV employees.

Well, you know, Air Canada pilots would be the ones bidding on the 757 flying if Picher had been accepted. But best not go back into that debate.

As for 'raising the bottom' - well, that is exactly what the Jazz MEC is trying to do, and has been trying to do for years for Jazz pilots. After Picher the Jazz pilots have been well served by a group of individuals who have been looking at options and opportunities that some might say are 'out of the box'.

As to pay: I do not expect to see the Jazz pilots who do 757 flying earn one penny more than the Dash 8 pilots with the same years of service and status. It may be hard for you formulae pay earners to wrap your head around that fact, but it is the life at Jazz.

[boestar]

Having sat in the room in the meeting that released the project plan for startup of the TCCI contract I saw that there are challenges ahead but, if all the cards fall into place, it is doable. Hiring, Training, RFP, etc all acounted for. There are some minor issues that may or may not cause issue but that is to be expected.

As for all this crap about ACPA and scuttling the contract.... BS...Pure BS. They have no legs to stand on. Any scope clauses and the like pertain ONLY to aircraft operated under the aircanada CPA. Air canada purchases CAPACITY from Jazz not aircraft. Jazz could have a 500 aircraft fleet with 100 operating for AC and 200 operating for WJ and the rest for other carriers. Jazz supplies Capacity and only Capacity. Same for TCCI just bigger planes. All aircraft flown under the AC CPA meet the restrictions set out under the collective agreement of ACPA so no issue.

And while I really can say no more than this the speculation around here as to what has transpired is WAY OFF. There is alot of mis information on this forum on this subject that is getting people all riled up and angry. All I can say is GROW UP. If you don't have FACTS then shut up. One day WE can sit down over a beer and I can explain it all.

[rudder]

I suspect ACPA is going to waste more of your dues paying its lawyers on this one. Since the customer is not Air Canada, but a third party, and Jazz is not constrained by its licence or the CPA from offering third party services of this kind, and since Jazz pilots are represented by another union, I have a strong hunch the extension of ACPA scope is going to be laughed at by a judge or arbitrator. And it wouldn't be the first time a judge or arbitrator laughs at ACPA. If any entity has grounds to challenge this legally, it would be Air Canada, and that would presume a difference of opinion over the wording of the CPA. However, if I was in Calin's shoes and believed Randall was running amok with this, I'd sue his åss and accept further price reductions in the CPA as part of a settlement.

Apparently you are correct about ACPA's next move, and FYI - Calin does not see Jazz as running amok.

I won't bother to post the newsletter.

[GTFA]

Having sat in the room in the meeting that released the project plan for startup of the TCCI contract I saw that there are challenges ahead but, if all the cards fall into place, it is doable. Hiring, Training, RFP, etc all acounted for. There are some minor issues that may or may not cause issue but that is to be expected.

As for all this crap about ACPA and scuttling the contract.... BS...Pure BS. They have no legs to stand on. Any scope clauses and the like pertain ONLY to aircraft operated under the aircanada CPA. Air canada purchases CAPACITY from Jazz not aircraft. Jazz could have a 500 aircraft fleet with 100 operating for AC and 200 operating for WJ and the rest for other carriers. Jazz supplies Capacity and only Capacity. Same for TCCI just bigger planes. All aircraft flown under the AC CPA meet the restrictions set out under the collective agreement of ACPA so no issue.

And while I really can say no more than this the speculation around here as to what has transpired is WAY OFF. There is alot of mis information on this forum on this subject that is getting people all riled up and angry. All I can say is GROW UP. If you don't have FACTS then shut up. One day WE can sit down over a beer and I can explain it all.

Thank you Boestar. Hopefully this will cause people to pause and reflect. There could definitely be a LOT of good come from this development. Jazz is a mature carrier with an advanced flight ops department with a significantly experienced and educated pilot group which may very well serve the whole industry well.

GTFA