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JAZZ and 757


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This really isn't a huge development other than new/more flying for Jazz that isn't for Air Canada

What are you all waiting for ACPA to say? Rally the troops for some Jazz-hating??

It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall of the ACPA forumwhistling.gif

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It's actually quite simple - Thomas Cook has selected Jazz to fly their aircraft. They will then select ground handlers at each station they will fly to - but the fact that Jazz is flying the aircraft will have little bearing - other than a little goodwill - on whom Thomas Cook selects. And if I'm correct, they only fly into major Canadian cities - meaning the Jazz handling there is done by Air Canada. Historically, they have selected Servisair, but that is historically.

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It's actually quite simple - Thomas Cook has selected Jazz to fly their aircraft. They will then select ground handlers at each station they will fly to - but the fact that Jazz is flying the aircraft will have little bearing - other than a little goodwill - on whom Thomas Cook selects. And if I'm correct, they only fly into major Canadian cities - meaning the Jazz handling there is done by Air Canada. Historically, they have selected Servisair, but that is historically.

TCCI (Sunquest) is not in the business of arranging ground handling and passenger services. They will provide the aircraft, publish the schedule and sell the seats. That's it. The rest will be up to the operator to sort out.

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There is ALOT of speculation here from many who do not know the details. Some are correct many are not. I can assure you that Jazz is well aware of what they are getting into and the timelines involved. There are many challenges ahead but we will overcome them to make this a success.

I am not able to go into detail of the agreements but suffice it to say Jazz will be looking for the support companies etc. Not Thomas Cook.

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I can assure you that Jazz is well aware of what they are getting into

Boestar, don't forget you're talking to people who've been "assured" of exactly that by many a failed airline. ...though as the numbers mount and skepticism creeps into the ranks, they may append "this time!" to that.

Personally, I think the truth is that very few of those involved in the running of an airline are ever "well aware" of the totality of what they're getting into. End results are very often unforeseen.

It seems almost criminal to me, what happens to aviation employees in this country... all so some fat cats can get a little fatter.

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:rolleyes: This oughta be good.

Like a kid walking by the sandbox and noticing a smaller kid has a nice new shovel, even though the bigger kid has lots of shovels, he just has to try and take the little kid's shovel away, because he feels entitled to it.

Sorry, but if ACPA decides that this is somehow "unfair" to them and tries to sewer it, then that is one of the more pathetic childish manoeuvres in Canadian Aviation History...

p.s. I don't work for AC, Jazz or SSV (RIP) so this means absolutely nothing to me, other than it tugs at my sense of fair play and decency.

imho

ACPA on the move

Fellow Pilots:

On Monday April 5, 2010 Jazz announced that they had entered into a flight services agreement with Thomas Cook Canada Inc. to operate no less than six B757-200 aircraft to sun destinations from several Canadian airports starting in November 2010. Under the agreement, Jazz will lease, operate and maintain the aircraft. The agreement is for a two-year period but could extend up to five years providing the two companies can agree on pricing for the additional three years. It's no coincidence that this announcement comes on the heels of the recent failure of charter operator Skyservice. Skyservice had an agreement with Thomas Cook to operate sun charters at the time of their shutdown.

Our collective agreement contains provisions governing the relationship between Air Canada and Jazz and although the structure of the relationship has changed since the provisions were negotiated, they are still in effect. There is a section in the Capacity Purchase Agreement (CPA) between the two airlines that requires Jazz to conform to the provisions of our collective agreement.

Our Labour Relations Department and legal professionals are reviewing the specific provisions of the collective agreement and will be submitting a report and recommendations to the MEC this week. We will keep you posted of any developments.

Thank you for your feedback and support.

Captain Bruce White (MEC Chair)

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I can assume that items with respect to ACPA that postings that "appear" to be lifted from the ACPA Private forum have the authors permission to be posted on a public forum...

re terms of use (ACPA Private Forum)..............

7) Users agree not to collect or disclose information posted on the Forum without first obtaining the consent of the individual who posted the material

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ACPA on the move

Fellow Pilots:

On Monday April 5, 2010 Jazz announced that they had entered into a flight services agreement with Thomas Cook Canada Inc. to operate no less than six B757-200 aircraft to sun destinations from several Canadian airports starting in November 2010. Under the agreement, Jazz will lease, operate and maintain the aircraft. The agreement is for a two-year period but could extend up to five years providing the two companies can agree on pricing for the additional three years. It's no coincidence that this announcement comes on the heels of the recent failure of charter operator Skyservice. Skyservice had an agreement with Thomas Cook to operate sun charters at the time of their shutdown.

Our collective agreement contains provisions governing the relationship between Air Canada and Jazz and although the structure of the relationship has changed since the provisions were negotiated, they are still in effect. There is a section in the Capacity Purchase Agreement (CPA) between the two airlines that requires Jazz to conform to the provisions of our collective agreement.

Our Labour Relations Department and legal professionals are reviewing the specific provisions of the collective agreement and will be submitting a report and recommendations to the MEC this week. We will keep you posted of any developments.

Thank you for your feedback and support.

Captain Bruce White (MEC Chair)

Not sure you should be posting confidential ACPA emails on a public forum. Not that there is anything here to hide, just don't think it's good practice.

IMHO of course.....

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Rookie, I agree completely, emails should not be posted here.

BTW, why shouldn't ACPA look at this ?? Why shouldnt questions be asked ??

Perhaps this flying would be better off at the mainline ??

The B767/B757 differences course took me a grand total of two hours to complete, I imagine the maintenance folks wouldn't be much different.

Prudence suggests questions be asked and answers given.

Doesn't it ??

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Rookie, I agree completely, emails should not be posted here.

BTW, why shouldn't ACPA look at this ?? Why shouldnt questions be asked ??

Perhaps this flying would be better off at the mainline ??

The B767/B757 differences course took me a grand total of two hours to complete, I imagine the maintenance folks wouldn't be much different.

Prudence suggests questions be asked and answers given.

Doesn't it ??

Except that Jazz is a seperate company. You don't ask any other operator to let you operate their planes. Why would Jazz be any different? Just curious.

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Except that Jazz is a seperate company. You don't ask any other operator to let you operate their planes. Why would Jazz be any different? Just curious.

It just keeps getting dumber and dumber :Scratch-Head:

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:rolleyes: This oughta be good.

Like a kid walking by the sandbox and noticing a smaller kid has a nice new shovel, even though the bigger kid has lots of shovels, he just has to try and take the little kid's shovel away, because he feels entitled to it.

Sorry, but if ACPA decides that this is somehow "unfair" to them and tries to sewer it, then that is one of the more pathetic childish manoeuvres in Canadian Aviation History...

p.s. I don't work for AC, Jazz or SSV (RIP) so this means absolutely nothing to me, other than it tugs at my sense of fair play and decency.

imho

Part of Air Canada's problem over the years is their sense of entitlement. They have been so focused on putting others out of business (ex: Tango/C3) they sometimes forgot to properly manage their own airline. Not surprising the AC pilot group feels this work should be theirs too. However, they seem to be selective. I don't see them blocking Jazz pilots from flying to YFB in the near future.

Just my opinion....I could be wrong.

bd :cool:

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Part of Air Canada's problem over the years is their sense of entitlement. They have been so focused on putting others out of business (ex: Tango/C3) that they sometimes forgot to properly manage their own airline. Not surprising that the pilot group feels this work should be theirs too. However, they seem to be selective. I don't see them blocking Jazz pilots from flying to YFB in the near future.

Just my opinion....I could be wrong.

bd :cool:

Ummmmmm. Tango was Air Canada.

where do you think the RJ's that Jazz is operating to YFB came from ??

My comments were directed more to suitability of the B757 flying, no entitlement.

btw, if you think Jazz is a separate company and that AC had no idea this was coming. All I can say is WOW

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Ummmmmm. Tango was Air Canada.

where do you think the RJ's that Jazz is operating to YFB came from ??

My comments were directed more to suitability of the B757 flying, no entitlement.

btw, if you think Jazz is a separate company and that AC had no idea this was coming. All I can say is WOW

I was not responding to your post but I appreciate your comments.

I am fully aware of who Tango was....believe me! And also where Jazz got their RJs.

bd :cool:

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I'm curious what gives anybody any "entitlement" to the flying. What about the SSV pilots who were doing this exact same flying less than a week ago? What's their "entitlement"? It's offensive in the extreme to read about pilots bickering over their "entitlement" to fly the same aircraft that their peers were flying just last week and who are now struggling to figure out how they will make ends meet. Here's a thought.... instead of claiming any "entitlement" to the flying, how about insisting that only laid off SSV pilots be allowed to operate those aircraft. Support your peers/friends/colleagues. What a novel idea!!!

Rich,

I don't think the word "entitlement" is being used in the context you might think.

I believe that the problem lies in the SCOPE clauses of different airlines and as we all know there is quite a tangled web between Jazz and AC.

I think some of the pro-AC posters feel that if the work went to Jazz they are "entitled" to it due to variances in contract language. Best to let the lawyers work this thing out.

I understand your position of the SSV pilots but that is a non -issue. No company is going to offer employment in their company just because another company failed .... no matter who is qualified to fly what.

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Let the ACPA bashing begin.

AIP, better do a little research. Jazz has no ownership ties to AC or ACE.

Jazz is required to comply with the AC pilots scope clause as a condition of the CPA. The 757 deal may be in contravention of that scope clause. The AC pilots cannot grieve this on the labor front due to the ownership structure. It's up to AC to enforce the language of the CPA and I'm sure they would like nothing better than to cancel it and replace it with terms that aren't 40% of market rates. Jazz may have dug their own grave. Time will tell. imo

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The one positive thing Skyservice pilots have in their favour is the amount of hiring now at some Canadian operations with the exception of Air Canada. Also off shore contractors are seeking crews for both Airbus and Boeing aircraft. Morningstar and even Jazz will have to look at some of these 757/767 qualified pilots to get their respective programs up and running. I know of some who have been head-hunted already by both.

Not nearly as bad as when C3 imploded in November 2001 just weeks a after an industry killing 9-11 disaster.

Best of luck to all the SSV pilots.

bd :cool:

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Ummmmmm. Tango was Air Canada.

where do you think the RJ's that Jazz is operating to YFB came from ??

My comments were directed more to suitability of the B757 flying, no entitlement.

btw, if you think Jazz is a separate company and that AC had no idea this was coming. All I can say is WOW

I thought that Air Nova ordered the original RJ's but Hollis took them away when he signed off on the first scope clause?

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I'm curious what gives anybody any "entitlement" to the flying. What about the SSV pilots who were doing this exact same flying less than a week ago? What's their "entitlement"? It's offensive in the extreme to read about pilots bickering over their "entitlement" to fly the same aircraft that their peers were flying just last week and who are now struggling to figure out how they will make ends meet. Here's a thought.... instead of claiming any "entitlement" to the flying, how about insisting that only laid off SSV pilots be allowed to operate those aircraft. Support your peers/friends/colleagues. What a novel idea!!!

Great post, Rich!!!

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Gents,

I think a closer look at this thread might show that no one has claimed to hold any sort of entitlement.

It's been a bit of a case where one accusation led to another.... etc.

Amen. I can understand and see the concerns from both sides here. I know ACPA is doing its job in order to protect their jobs and do what they think is best for their company. As a Jazz pilot, I of course want to see the company grow and succeed. I cannot imagine that our managers would do anything to compromise the CPA. It accounts for 98% of Jazz' revenues, so it just boggles my mind that Jazz would risk this much revenue and a long history of relations with AC in order to go after 6 a/c on a short-term contract. Plus, Jazz and AC just renegotiated the terms of the CPA- if Jazz management was so deadset on severing the ties from AC completely, than why re-sign and extend the CPA?

It's sad to see increasing division between the two pilot groups though. We should be fighting together, as opposed to fighting each other. I know, both sides are just trying to do what's best for their respective company and what they believe is better for the industry as a whole. It's unfortunate that not everyone is on the same page with this. If we want things to change for the better, we need to put pressure on management. But when there is so much animosity between the pilot groups, we tend to lose focus of what we are really fighting for, and instead, we seem to focus more on keeping the fight going.

I have +35 years until I retire. I really love my job, and I really hope one day there will be more unity between everyone, because I really want to enjoy those last 35 years ;)

Anyways, time for bed. Good night all.

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Rookie, I agree completely, emails should not be posted here.

BTW, why shouldn't ACPA look at this ?? Why shouldnt questions be asked ??

Perhaps this flying would be better off at the mainline ??

The B767/B757 differences course took me a grand total of two hours to complete, I imagine the maintenance folks wouldn't be much different.

Prudence suggests questions be asked and answers given.

Doesn't it ??

I suspect ACPA is going to waste more of your dues paying its lawyers on this one. Since the customer is not Air Canada, but a third party, and Jazz is not constrained by its licence or the CPA from offering third party services of this kind, and since Jazz pilots are represented by another union, I have a strong hunch the extension of ACPA scope is going to be laughed at by a judge or arbitrator. And it wouldn't be the first time a judge or arbitrator laughs at ACPA. If any entity has grounds to challenge this legally, it would be Air Canada, and that would presume a difference of opinion over the wording of the CPA. However, if I was in Calin's shoes and believed Randall was running amok with this, I'd sue his åss and accept further price reductions in the CPA as part of a settlement.

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