JAZZ and 757

[wrench]

Air Canada hasn't been making money eh? Well, the execs have been making out handsomely, as have certain 'investors'... I mean one third of ALL the flippin' returns.

You know, we're wayyyyy off topic, and I'm just an ignorant putz with dirty work clothes who doesn't have the slightest clue.... I'm just getting tired of hearing another brand of ignorance with the line, "be thankful you have a job"... while the lowly grunts watch their debt grow, their wages decrease and their working conditions worsen, while millions are siphoned off the top for the select few 'investors' and execs.

I reckon my responsibilities -- things I'm legally and morally responsible and accountable for -- are far greater than most of those virtually unaccountable sods that make out like bandits...and while our relative earnings continue their steady decline, folks like you and Dagger tell me how it's so all fired important that those who have f___ all accountability, or responsibilty, get their rewards.

It's all rotten Malcolm. All of us are virtual slaves to a system designed to increase the wealth of the filthy rich, from the blood sweat and tears of those of us trapped within this crap.

Solution? ... since I don't expect to see anything change until the whole world, debt based economy melts down, I can only look for distractions enough to not care.... and vent once in a while. ...which I've just done, Thanks.

Cheers!

I know you have been around as long as me, and we are all tired of it but in reality

I do know a couple of people that are unemployed and as such would be happy to go to a job and get a paycheque which I can not imagine not doing. I am thankful that I have a job and if I was really upset at the people that ran my company I guess I could look elsewhere.....in fact, so could you. I watch my debt grow and life goes on but the time to do something about all this was when we were 19 or 20 when we chose the field we are in. On another note.. If you were a senior exec at this company and your company was making money, don't you think you deserve some financial credit? I would bet that you would not turn it down. So my friend... be happy in your life. Complain a bit, celebrate a bit, and worry about yourself and your family. Do your job to the best of your ability and sleep well....as long as you can breathe in and oput and blood is flowing through your circulatory system, It's all good!!

"be thankful you have a job"... while the lowly grunts watch their debt grow, their wages decrease and their working conditions worsen, while millions are siphoned off the top for the select few 'investors' and execs.

[wrench]

Hello all,

First time poster long time reader.

My take on this is that I am not too concerned that this move by Jazz to grab new flying from another source of revenue will bring any negative response from Air Canada. First Jazz has shown over the past 4-5 years of it's indepenance to be extremely cautious about taking on any new work. I would be willing to bet that the Jazz management has had their lawyers look over the CPA and ensure that nothing would violate the contract as they can't afford to rock the gravy boat that is the CPA with Air Canada. Secondly, we can't know what perks were thrown into the "new CPA" signed last summer to help Air Canada overcome it's cash crunch. It may be that to help Jazz agree to the deal, Air Canada relaxed some of the non compete clauses which may have impeaded Jazz from getting any outside work. That is for the lawyers and CEO's to know. Thirdly Jazz isn't the company directly competing with Air Canada, the company which is competing is actually Thomas Cook Travel, operating mainly under their Canadian operating name, Sunquest. Jazz is basically taking over the flying which Skyservice (RIP) was doing. Jazz isn't directly pricing, scheduling or even marketing the flights that they'll be flying, in fact they'll be doing for Thomas Cook what they currently do for Air Canada, providing uplift. Therefore I feel that Jazz isn't competing against Air Canada or Air Canada Vacations.

I could be wrong and I really hope I'm not but I don't think there is any violation of the CPA and that Air Canada can't invoke non compete clauses that allow it to cut flying that it currently contracts to Jazz. Only time will tell if this in fact turns out to be a problem. I hope for Air Canada and Jazz's sake that the two companies can still work together as I believe they mutually benefit from each other's presence.

That's my 2 cents though. I'll get off my soap box... lol.

Cheers guys have a great day.

"FIRST TIME POSTER" Wish you had been posting before because you hit every nail solidly on the head. There is nothing in the CPA that will preclude Jazz for operating for anyone else, in fact, if a US carrier wanted a capacity purchase agreement with Jazz, it could be done too. As far a s Air Canada starting their own "connector"... well lets just say that the mentality just isn't there and never could be... Westjet on the other hand has the mentality, knowlege and the key ingredient "people that want to work for a living" to make the company a success. Again. GOOD POST !!

[topjetboy]

Wrench, do you think Jazz wil be able to train 140ish pilots in 7 months? In a busy summer, with no 757 trainers, and no 757 simulator in Canada. $40,000(ish) a pilot = $5.6 million is a lot of money.

[rudder]

Wrench, do you think Jazz wil be able to train 140ish pilots in 7 months? In a busy summer, with no 757 trainers, and no 757 simulator in Canada. $40,000(ish) a pilot = $5.6 million is a lot of money.

140ish pilots? Not even close (by a factor of 40%).

no trainers, no 757 simulators in Canada? It's a great big planet out there with lots of 757 training resources (for a price).

busy summer? First TC flight not planned til mid-November and all 6 aircraft not fully scheduled til December.

$5.6 million is a lot of money? One can only assume that start up cost recovery was built in to the bid.

[skyline]

140sh pilots? More like 60 total. I understand that Jazz has already hired ex-skyservice people for training.

[topjetboy]

'Thomas Cook will lease no fewer than six, and potentially up to 11 jets, to Jazz to operate through gateways across Canada. Destinations will include the Caribbean, Mexico and Central America through Sunquest Vacations, Thomas Cook's tour operator. '

It's my understanding that the total number of a/c is 11. Jazz will own 6 and they'll be supplemented by 5 TCX a/c in the winter. That makes 140ish pilots by my reckoning.

By 'busy summer season' I mean that the Jazz scheduled flights are mostly in the summer - is that not correct? As far as sending pilots abroad, yes, of course that's a possibility. Actually it's a certainty but it starts to look like a real hurdle - more cost and more duty away from the flight deck.

If 5 of the a/c will be seasonal, is it even worth training crews when TCX crews can be wet-leased with the airframes?

I realise I must seem to be rather a naysayer here but I just can't get my head around what Jazz plans to do in order to make this work from a crewing perspective and would like someone to enlighten me.

[Moon The Loon]

Wrench, do you think Jazz wil be able to train 140ish pilots in 7 months? In a busy summer, with no 757 trainers, and no 757 simulator in Canada. $40,000(ish) a pilot = $5.6 million is a lot of money.

There are lots of 767 trainers and simulators in Canada and North America. 767 + Differences Training = 757 endorsement. Level D simulator = zero time airplane training. Post training + 3 touch and goes in real airplane = Ready For Line Indoc.

As far as time lines go? Very good question

[rudder]

'Thomas Cook will lease no fewer than six, and potentially up to 11 jets, to Jazz to operate through gateways across Canada. Destinations will include the Caribbean, Mexico and Central America through Sunquest Vacations, Thomas Cook's tour operator. '

It's my understanding that the total number of a/c is 11. Jazz will own 6 and they'll be supplemented by 5 TCX a/c in the winter. That makes 140ish pilots by my reckoning.

By 'busy summer season' I mean that the Jazz scheduled flights are mostly in the summer - is that not correct? As far as sending pilots abroad, yes, of course that's a possibility. Actually it's a certainty but it starts to look like a real hurdle - more cost and more duty away from the flight deck.

If 5 of the a/c will be seasonal, is it even worth training crews when TCX crews can be wet-leased with the airframes?

I realise I must seem to be rather a naysayer here but I just can't get my head around what Jazz plans to do in order to make this work from a crewing perspective and would like someone to enlighten me.

Nope. For winter 2010/2011 it will be 6 subleased aircraft from Thomas Cook. The agreement between the parties allows for the fleet to be increased up to 11 aircraft total (this does not appear to be part of the winter 2010/2011 plan) and for the term to be extended from the current expiry of spring 2012.

Jazz sees a seasonal reduction in block hours in the AC CPA that will roughly coincide with the block hours and months of operation of the B757 for Thomas Cook so the impact on crewing (except for initial type training) is negligible.

The Jazz pilot contract allows for non-seniority list pilots for new equipment type start up purposes only. The provision is time limited. In order to operate the routings required the aircraft muct be C registered and attached to a Canadian Operating Certificate.

[boestar]

Jazz has this all well in hand and although the timelines are very tight, the schedule for training is, to say the least, busy.

There will be 6 aircraft subleased form Thomas Cook and all will bear C Registrations as it is a legal requirement.

[Guest floatrrr]

Jazz has this all well in hand and although the timelines are very tight, the schedule for training is, to say the least, busy.

There will be 6 aircraft subleased form Thomas Cook and all will bear C Registrations as it is a legal requirement.

Then Joe better start negotiating in earnest if he doesn't want to sewer the whole deal. Tick,tock, tick, tock.

[blues deville]

'Thomas Cook will lease no fewer than six, and potentially up to 11 jets, to Jazz to operate through gateways across Canada. Destinations will include the Caribbean, Mexico and Central America through Sunquest Vacations, Thomas Cook's tour operator. '

It's my understanding that the total number of a/c is 11. Jazz will own 6 and they'll be supplemented by 5 TCX a/c in the winter. That makes 140ish pilots by my reckoning.

By 'busy summer season' I mean that the Jazz scheduled flights are mostly in the summer - is that not correct? As far as sending pilots abroad, yes, of course that's a possibility. Actually it's a certainty but it starts to look like a real hurdle - more cost and more duty away from the flight deck.

If 5 of the a/c will be seasonal, is it even worth training crews when TCX crews can be wet-leased with the airframes?

I realise I must seem to be rather a naysayer here but I just can't get my head around what Jazz plans to do in order to make this work from a crewing perspective and would like someone to enlighten me.

All of the Thomas Cook aircraft operated in Canada for Winter 2010/11 will be returned to the UK and the Jazz pilots will return to their previous aircraft for the summer season. Its basically the same commercial agreement that Skyservice had during their first year with Air Tours.

bd

[Moon The Loon]

The 757 is no CRJ...

[topjetboy]

Ok, I see a bit better now.

Thank-you.

[blues deville]

The 757 is no CRJ...

You are correct Moon. It will be quite a challenge jumping back and forth from the CRJ to a 757 but fortunately for the Jazz pilots Boeing never makes airplanes that are hard to fly.

bd

[Moon The Loon]

You are correct Moon. It will be quite a challenge jumping back and forth from the CRJ to a 757 but fortunately for the Jazz pilots Boeing never makes airplanes that are hard to fly.

bd

I have no doubt they will do a great job with their new venture.

[topjetboy]

Have you guys started training yet?

Thomas Cook Airlines (UK) is struggling to find trainers to go out to train you. Rumour has it they have approached Delta to provide training.

[boestar]

Not sure about the pilots but the maintenance Training is well under way.

[rudder]

Have you guys started training yet?

Thomas Cook Airlines (UK) is struggling to find trainers to go out to train you. Rumour has it they have approached Delta to provide training.

Delta was selected as the pilot training supplier. Groundschool is at the CAE facility in Toronto and simulator using the Delta facilities in Atlants. First course in September. Thomas Cook posted positions for pilots to come over for the line indoc phase of training. Perhaps they have not found many volunteers. Short term line trainers can be sourced in North America if necessary.

[topjetboy]

Ok, many thanks. I think they had a enough line-pilot volunteers but the training captains weren't interested.

[rudder]

Ok, many thanks. I think they had a enough line-pilot volunteers but the training captains weren't interested.

I saw the TC internal job postings. I guess not alot of pilots wanted to spend Xmas in Canada

Approximately 1/3rd of the Jazz 757 pilots will be PPC'd prior to first scheduled TC flight in November. First trainees are mostly Supervisors and planned line indoc Captains. Jazz line indoc Captains will have to hit certain minimums on type before they can begin to take over the line indoc in-house in January. Last contract pilot should be gone by March. Last TC flight for first season will be April.

[blues deville]

How many hours of line training will each pilot receive before being signed out?

You will hopefully finish before the aircraft are returned to the UK.

bd

[rudder]

How many hours of line training will each pilot receive before being signed out?

You will hopefully finish before the aircraft are returned to the UK.

bd

The expectation is that all Jazz 757 pilots will have completed line indoc by the time the last 757 returns to the UK in April. There are consolidation requirements in the CAR's that typically form the basis for the line indoc requirements, and Jazz typically exceeds those numbers by a comfortable margin. My guess? 100 hrs of line indoc per pilot plus certain airport specific route qualifications for line Captains.

[AME]

Air Canada hasn't been making money eh? Well, the execs have been making out handsomely, as have certain 'investors'... I mean one third of ALL the flippin' returns.

You know, we're wayyyyy off topic, and I'm just an ignorant putz with dirty work clothes who doesn't have the slightest clue.... I'm just getting tired of hearing another brand of ignorance with the line, "be thankful you have a job"... while the lowly grunts watch their debt grow, their wages decrease and their working conditions worsen, while millions are siphoned off the top for the select few 'investors' and execs.

I reckon my responsibilities -- things I'm legally and morally responsible and accountable for -- are far greater than most of those virtually unaccountable sods that make out like bandits...and while our relative earnings continue their steady decline, folks like you and Dagger tell me how it's so all fired important that those who have f___ all accountability, or responsibilty, get their rewards.

It's all rotten Malcolm. All of us are virtual slaves to a system designed to increase the wealth of the filthy rich, from the blood sweat and tears of those of us trapped within this crap.

Solution? ... since I don't expect to see anything change until the whole world, debt based economy melts down, I can only look for distractions enough to not care.... and vent once in a while. ...which I've just done, Thanks.

Cheers!

Mitch

The sad reality is that no one is willing to stand up and say they will not do it anymore, the only way things will ever change is when no one shows up for work and I mean no one, but as you know especially in maintenance (re:AMFA) we're all a bunch of spineless, whinny wimps.

hows that for a rant?

Brett

p.s. Life after AC is actually quite good

[rudder]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/40168621@N07/5096108055/

[boestar]

Photoshopped. that aircraft is curently undergoing inspection in Manchester. If you look at the EXIF data supplied by Flickr you can see it was modified by Photoshop.

Delivery will be november 5th after its acceptance flight from Manchester.