JAZZ and 757

[JW]

Folks, the ink is just barely dry on this agreement. Only a select few know the details of it.

The rumours of SSV problems have been swirling for over a year now. Did Jazz have anything to do with it, not a chance.

A lot of responses have alluded to Jazz pilots doing this contract at current pay rates, not going to happen folks. Our current contract (which expired June '09 btw) was rammed down our throats during CCAA 7 years ago. Negotiations are ongoing, this new agreement will likely form an LOU that will be included with any TA, and that will need to be ratified by the pilot group. There needs to be significant improvements made for that to happen.

CH

There seems to be a lot of dissing of ACPA here; yet ACPA hasn't made any formal position statement, other than a consideration of the situation on this deal, to my knowledge, and up to this point in time.

So Let's consider the ALPA position.

countryhick poses "Did Jazz have anything to do with it..." That, combined with his prior comment made me wonder, how long has the deal to cover the Thomas Cook flying been before Jazz-ALPA regarding crewing of the 757s?

Would the discussions have been prior to the forced demise of Skyservice by Thomas Cook? By the appearance of the advanced construction of the agreement when announced, as I read the releases on this, likely talks had been under way for a while. Probably quite some time, very likely. So, how far in advance had ALPA been planning to take over Skyservice work?

[John S.]

. . . as I read the releases on this, likely talks had been under way for a while. Probably quite some time, very likely. So, how far in advance had ALPA been planning to take over Skyservice work?

A week, a month, several months... What difference would knowing this make to the discussion?

Are you suggestion that ACPA's response might be different depending on how long these talks incubated before the announcement?

[wrench]

I guess I was wrong (not like that hasn't happened before)

One question I have is ...Why the 757? is it because it is a type that AC doesn't operate?

Good Guess...... My take is that they can give any type to Jazz engineers and they will be willing to learn fast and make it work. Such is their culture: Make it happen and don't complain !!

[AME]

Good Guess...... My take is that they can give any type to Jazz engineers and they will be willing to learn fast and make it work. Such is their culture: Make it happen and don't complain !!

I sent you a PM

[Specs]

Out of curiosity - When compared against the perks of flying a Jazz DHC-8 or a CRJ, why would a Jazz pilot want to fly the 757. No extra pay and wouldn't you be away from home and the family more?

[rudder]

Out of curiosity - When compared against the perks of flying a Jazz DHC-8 or a CRJ, why would a Jazz pilot want to fly the 757. No extra pay and wouldn't you be away from home and the family more?

At Jazz, pilots do not have to chase aircraft for economic gain. Aircraft come (CRJ/D8400) and aircraft go (BAe146/F28). Other than a possible base change for an upgrade or other more individual reasons, a Jazz pilot can remain at the base of their choosing and enjoy the same T4 as their counterparts that may be flying larger or smaller equipment.

Some commuters bid equipment that permits layovers at their domicile. Some pilots prefer routes or destinations that are only flown by one piece of equipment. Some pilots prefer 450KTS over 250KTS......

At the end of the day, Jazz pilots are paid based on the number of bars on their sleeve and the number of years they have on payroll. There are of course perqs to seniority (vacation bidding/monthly schedule) but payday is payday regardless of base or aircraft. A pilot generally on a reserve block will make nominally less that a pilot that regularly holds a line of flying. Estimating whether you will be on reserve or not could influence equipment bidding.

p.s. the company saves millions in training and moving costs, as well as minimal impact on crew efficiency to time lost as pilots are not perpetually on equipment upgrade training. These savings can be redirected into pay rate, pension, and benefit enhancements.

[Super 80]

I have been back in the US for a while and extremely strong opinions are being expressed by guys whom the extent of their knowledge is having taxied behind a Jazz CRJ at some point. Really apocalyptic language as though if ACPA doesn't fight this to the death inside of a decade Mesa and Colgan will be flying everything and if ACPA doesn't fight for the spirit of their scope clause nobody else will be able to preserve theirs. All over America mainline narrow bodies will be flown into the side of mountains as their former crews live under bridges.

I defended the virtue of Jazz pilots,

[rudder]

I have been back in the US for a while and extremely strong opinions are being expressed by guys whom the extent of their knowledge is having taxied behind a Jazz CRJ at some point. Really apocalyptic language as though if ACPA doesn't fight this to the death inside of a decade Mesa and Colgan will be flying everything and if ACPA doesn't fight for the spirit of their scope clause nobody else will be able to preserve theirs. All over America mainline narrow bodies will be flown into the side of mountains as their former crews live under bridges.

I defended the virtue of Jazz pilots,

Ever heard of Republic Airways Holdings? Did a single US legacy scope clause preclude RAH from acquiring Frontier and Midwest? This illusion that scope clauses can control the industry is the same one that pushes the legacy carriers to the brink of oblivion. And as for the local situation, I guess that the 'real' airline pilots would be happier if contracts like Thomas Cook went to the Cargojets of the world - no union/no rules/no pension and top pay of about $10K per month.

[Super 80]

Oh yeah, their ecstatic about that too.

Although 3rd party scope clauses have been a problem for Republic in the past, when Chautauqua began flying the Embraer 170 for United they crossed the ALPA and their scope clause at American. A pissing contest if there ever was one.

[rudder]

Lots of crap out there on the US web boards as well on scope. But here is the deal - the legacy employers cannot afford to take the subbed out work back. They cannot afford to finance the balance sheet debt for fleets of 100/200/300 'regional' aircraft. And assuming that mainline labour (pilots/flight attendants/AME's/etc) are all lined up and willing to accept the compensation package that will support a second tier operation, which legacy carrier will go first? How will they compete while their counterparts maintain lower costs with subcontracted partners? And while all this is going on, the SWA's, JetBlue's, airTran's, VA's, and Westjets of the world are chewing your a$$ off.

The domestic marketplace has changed and good luck trying to use scope to try to dictate market forces. Interestingly enough, none of this has anything to do with Jazz or Thomas Cook. But it makes for an interesting distraction for those that are unwilling or unable to deal with the real structural problems that are creatiing liquidity issues for their employer. And unlike the US, there are no more legacy merger alternatives left in Canada.

[Super 80]

I wouldn't expect any real reasoned discussion down here - the Jazz 757's are just the ultimate manifestation of regional airlines encroaching on "their" flying.

The fact it wasn't even Air Canada flying didn't seem to modify the argument or that the Jazz crews will have closer to their hours than any US regional crew didn't really modify their thinking.

But... "if Air Canada pilots want to be respected in this industry they need to shut the f--king airline down"

[ninoc]

I wouldn't expect any real reasoned discussion down here - the Jazz 757's are just the ultimate manifestation of regional airlines encroaching on "their" flying.

The fact it wasn't even Air Canada flying didn't seem to modify the argument or that the Jazz crews will have closer to their hours than any US regional crew didn't really modify their thinking.

But... "if Air Canada pilots want to be respected in this industry they need to shut the f--king airline down"

[ninoc]

They should just concentrate on flying their aircraft and paying attention in their cockpits....

[John S.]

They should just concentrate on flying their aircraft and paying attention in their cockpits....

And just what the heck do you mean by this post?

[ninoc]

And just what the heck do you mean by this post?

[ninoc]

I mean that instead of being negative certain people should be happy that an airline is creating work and growing. It doesn't seem to be at the expense of any of the complainers. I was referring to the plane that over flew its destination due to "heated discussion" in cockpit

[ninoc]

I mean that instead of being negative certain people should be happy that an airline is creating work and growing. It doesn't seem to be at the expense of any of the complainers. I was referring to the plane that over flew its destination due to "heated discussion" in cockpit

[Mitch Cronin]

I mean that instead of being negative certain people should be happy that an airline is creating work and growing.

An airline has created squat without it's employees, who've been continually battered down, in both wages and working conditions, for the last decade or more.

You're expressing what appears to be a commonly held perception... that the lowly employees should feel grateful to their employer for allowing them to work for them, but that's a viewpoint that ignores the gratitude owed the employee for his contributions, while rewarding only management and investors. It's an attitude that will cause the demise of many organizations before a decent balance of rewards for each of the three legs of the stool is established.

[AME]

but that's a viewpoint that ignores the gratitude owed the employee for his contributions,

Could you imagine the uproar from the unions if they even tried to reward an employee for going the extra mile?????

[Mitch Cronin]

I still see some of that going on from lower levels of management, with only a whimper from the odd 'unionist'... But that's not what I meant... I mean the employees should be seeing a third of the total returns... Without employees, an airline is nothing more than a useless idea... without dedicated employees an airline is nothing more than a bad idea.

[moeman]

I thought wages and benefits made up one of the largest "cost" items on AC's balance sheet?

[Mitch Cronin]

Air Canada hasn't been making money eh? Well, the execs have been making out handsomely, as have certain 'investors'... I mean one third of ALL the flippin' returns.

You know, we're wayyyyy off topic, and I'm just an ignorant putz with dirty work clothes who doesn't have the slightest clue.... I'm just getting tired of hearing another brand of ignorance with the line, "be thankful you have a job"... while the lowly grunts watch their debt grow, their wages decrease and their working conditions worsen, while millions are siphoned off the top for the select few 'investors' and execs.

I reckon my responsibilities -- things I'm legally and morally responsible and accountable for -- are far greater than most of those virtually unaccountable sods that make out like bandits...and while our relative earnings continue their steady decline, folks like you and Dagger tell me how it's so all fired important that those who have f___ all accountability, or responsibilty, get their rewards.

It's all rotten Malcolm. All of us are virtual slaves to a system designed to increase the wealth of the filthy rich, from the blood sweat and tears of those of us trapped within this crap.

Solution? ... since I don't expect to see anything change until the whole world, debt based economy melts down, I can only look for distractions enough to not care.... and vent once in a while. ...which I've just done, Thanks.

Cheers!

[Mitch Cronin]

No, I know you don't see things the way I do... that's ok Malcolm. We're different people. ....all of this stuff, wealth, investment, airline fortunes, flying to and fro to see grandma or uncle Fred, having a vacation or getting to a meeting... business, commerce, finances, ... it's all meaningless smog that obscures what's really valuable. If the human race is still around in a thousand years I'll bet they'll be a lot closer to throwing that thing off the edge of the earth... or sleeping late, playing with their children, catching a few fish, taking a siesta with their spouses and spending their evenings drinking and enjoying their friends...

[topjetboy]

So have Jazz started training you guys up onto the 757 yet? Or do you think they're going to want to get temp contract pilots in for the 1st winter to avoid heavy amounts of training during the summer?

[wrench]

Any idea where the aircraft are coming from? I would bet there will be no summer holidays for those involved.

All from their European deployment. Technical training and Flight Crew training starting very soon.