AMEfirst Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Yes price is important, confidence in Bombardier is important, P&W pure power engines, etc. The deal has many interrelated parts. ACPPA is one hell of a dark cloud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Definitely political. A liberal government has always been good to AC. However, this will be a win-win situation for all parties. Congrats to all those involved and I think a far better product than currently in use by AC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrlupin Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Quote ...a pledge from Air Canada to do all heavy maintenance work related to the new planes at a facility in Quebec for at least 20 years. I wonder if that statement means they would do the work themselves or have it done by a third party? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 18 minutes ago, mrlupin said: I wonder if that statement means they would do the work themselves or have it done by a third party? Premier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudder Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 BBD/AC did not (and will not) release actual pricing details. But I suspect that there would have been a significant discount applied (20%+) in order to facilitate such a timely and voluminous customer expression of intent to purchase. I suspect that UAL and JetBlue may have been offered similar inducements. it would be interesting to see what 'conditions' are attached to the LOI that will permit conversion to a firm contract. Possibly included are: - availability of EDC financing subsidies (not sure that EETC will work for C series) - AC reaching acceptable agreements with labour (where applicable i.e. pilot equipment based pay rates) - disposition of E190 aircraft (trade in or sale to third party) What won't be on the list is anything to do with Billy Bishop Airport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudder Posted February 17, 2016 Share Posted February 17, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango Foxtrot Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Sweet Rudder ! What a beautiful airplane ! Especialy in those colors ! Sounds like a a winning deal for everybody. The proof will be in the pudding,. Let's hope it will be like the Dash 8, if you don't have one you are not in the game! Sounds a lot like settling a soft wood dispute, by buying C17s and F35s, and a whole lot better than picking your national airlines next airplane to make you and your buddies rich! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 TRANSPORTATION Bombardier eyes secret weapon in quest to sell C Series Add to ... Nicolas Van Praet MONTREAL — The Globe and Mail Published Monday, May 11, 2015 4:14PM EDT Last updated Tuesday, May 12, 2015 10:13AM EDT Bombardier Inc.’s marketing materials for its new C Series jet trumpet the airliner’s comfy 19-inch seat width, class-leading fuel-burn numbers and unmatched noise reduction. But as the company tries to build a critical base of orders before the 100-to-150-seat plane enters commercial service, Bombardier will soon unveil details of another key feature largely shrouded in secrecy so far: The jet’s aircraft health-management system (HMS). Canada's newest plane took a test flight Friday in Mirabel, Quebec. The Bombardier CS300 is slated to enter into service in mid-2016. HMS is a diagnostic tool that lets airlines monitor their airplanes’ systems and engines in real time and prepare any troubleshooting required while the jets are still flying. The reason why Bombardier has so far hesitated to talk about its take on the technology in any detail has much to do with the fact it’s still a work in progress. While the system has been on board C Series test planes since last September collecting what Bombardier officials call a “gigantic” amount of data, the company has yet to announce the data-service provider it will partner with to transmit the information from cruising altitude. And it is still figuring out how to set up the ground support to go with it. The logic for keeping the system under wraps is also tied to selling the aircraft. Bombardier doesn’t want to go public with technological promises it can’t deliver. And it wants to build buzz for the C Series heading into the important Paris air show in June. It is betting that unveiling a potentially pivotal piece of technology then, while the whole industry is watching, could give it a leg up on its rivals and fuel more orders. Industry observers say it will be the first single-aisle aircraft to have a diagnostic system with this level of sophistication. “Bombardier has a real competitive advantage here” with the C Series health-management system, said Ernie Arvai, an analyst with commercial aviation consultancy AirInsight. “It is head and shoulders above any existing HMS on narrow-body aircraft. What they’re doing is exciting cutting-edge IT stuff – even down to the sensors on the windshield.” At the heart of the system is the aircraft health-monitoring unit. Roughly the size of a shoe box and weighing more than three and a half kilograms, it’s the piece of hardware connected to the plane’s avionics that collects data from all the various electronic sensors throughout the aircraft. The data is then relayed to the ground. Bombardier announced Tuesday that Pratt & Whitney, which makes the engines for the C Series, will also supply the equipment used to transmit data from the health monitoring unit to the earth’s surface. Bombardier documents suggest the health-management equipment on each C Series plane will have storage capacity to track 5,000 parameters, or data points, for 100 flights. The system also promises bidirectional communication, an Internet-based user interface and customizable reports. By comparison, Boeing has only a rudimentary user monitoring system on its rival 737 Next Generation and Max planes, Mr. Arvai said. Ultimately, the diagnostic data will belong to the C Series operators, some of whom may opt for a self-service option without Bombardier’s continued involvement. But Bombardier is betting it can entice many of those customers into a post-sale service agreement, whereby the carrier will share the information with Bombardier and receive maintenance alerts and advice in return. The company declined to provide an estimate of potential revenue from the service. Boeing’s HMS, available as a standard feature on its newest 787 Dreamliner wide-body jets, provides a glimpse as to how Bombardier’s system could work. Boeing set up a command centre in Everett, Wash., to track the performance of the dozens of 787s airborne around the world. As the company explains it, data from onboard systems is routinely captured inflight and transmitted to the command centre as well as to the plane operator using software on the ground to translate digital data into real-time reports. When any anomaly surfaces, both Boeing and airline personnel receive alerts delivered through e-mail or other communications tools. Officials with the airline and Boeing can then access and act on the information using a secure Internet portal for that purpose. Boeing says its health-management system is used by 58 airlines globally on more than 2,000 planes. The goal goes well beyond traditional aircraft maintenance, using analytic modelling to verify how efficient the jet is performing and to spot any potential issues before they become real problems. Not having to ground aircraft is a crucial issue for airlines because they incur significant costs whenever they have to cancel flights unexpectedly. “You’re going to have basically the airplane being in a more available state to the customer and minimize the downtime,” said Stéphane Hébert, the Bombardier executive in charge of the program as director of C Series customer services. “That’s really what [this system] is all about.” Bombardier believes it is going to have a hit on its hands and wants to make a “big bang” with the system, Mr. Hébert said. “We know what the system is capable of. It’s just a matter for us now to package it together.” Others play down the importance of the HMS. Richard Aboulafia of U.S. consultancy Teal Group said the kind of usage monitoring system Bombardier is introducing with its C Series is the basic price of admission to compete against industry giants Boeing and Airbus, both of whom have a significant pricing-power advantage given the superior production rates of their single-aisle planes. “All of this falls into the heading of stuff you have to have” with a new airliner, Mr. Aboulafia said. “It doesn’t alter the competitive situation. You’re kind of just running to stay in place.” Bombardier’s C Series program is two years behind schedule and $2-billion overbudget. Orders for the aircraft, which will compete with the smallest planes built by Boeing and Airbus, currently stand at 243 – a number critics say is worryingly low, but Bombardier says is right on track for the 300 it expects by the time the first plane enters passenger service in early 2016. “We’re quite satisfied with the level of traction we’re getting in the market right now,” C Series program director Sébastien Mullot said. “With the current progress we’re seeing in terms of the performance numbers, we’re gaining renewed interest from customers.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lakelad Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 11 hours ago, dagger said: Undoubtedly. Remember the $20 million the Harper government wouldn't pay for air marshals? Maybe a little change to the ACPPA? Emirates stays at three frequencies until Dubai freezes over? Ottawa to ease competition rules for Air Canada after CSeries purchase Wed Feb 17, 2016 - Financial Post Josh Wingrove and Scott Deveau The government will ease rules that constrain Air Canada’s ability to compete, after the country’s largest air carrier settled a dispute with Quebec and agreed to buy jets from Bombardier Inc. Transport Minister Marc Garneau told reporters in Ottawa Wednesday the government will seek to “clarify” the Air Canada Public Participation Act to allow the airline “to respond more effectively to changing market conditions.” The air carrier resolved a legal dispute with the Quebec government, which had been suing the company under the act for closing a Montreal maintenance unit. Garneau announced the changes on the same day Air Canada unveiled its agreement to purchase 45 C Series jets from Bombardier with a list value of about US$3.8 billion. Garneau said the federal government didn’t pressure Air Canada to purchase the jets. Changes to the act won’t affect requirements to keep Air Canada’s headquarters in Montreal or comply with the country’s language laws, said Marc Roy, a spokesman for Garneau. Air Canada has long been asking for the legislation, which was enacted in 1988 at the time of the company’s privatization, to be repealed. In a submission to government last February, it said repealing the act would level the playing field for all Canadian airlines. The act requires, among other measures, the airline to keep its headquarters in Montreal, submit to the Official Languages Act and keep maintenance facilities in Vancouver, Winnipeg, Toronto and Montreal. “The Act was written at a time when the market for the air industry lacked a competitive environment” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudder Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 One article in the Globe and Mail quotes industry sources as estimating that AC received up to a 60% discount off the list price. If true, that would be an amazing deal for AC. The CS300 is effectively a Bombardier A319. Imagine getting a brand new A319 for $30 million (that uses 25% less fuel). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Innuendo Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 Quote Bombardier Inc.’s marketing materials for its new C Series jet trumpet the airliner’s comfy 19-inch seat width, That may be so but the seating config usually ends up as a spec by the purchasing airline. 'frinstance, the AC "Slaveship" 777 , pretty snug in the back, but folks want low fares I guess. Anyway apart from the realities of politics and economics it looks like a beautiful airplane to operate. i'm envious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GDR Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 AC expanding. http://www.thestar.com/business/2016/02/17/air-canada-says-cseries-fits-into-expansion-plans.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted February 18, 2016 Share Posted February 18, 2016 19" seats on a short range aircraft, but only 17" on the ultra long haul equipment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Still think this is great for all parties involved, however, the timing is interesting. 1. New liberal government 2. Island airport runway extension cancelled. 3. Porter's pending Cseries order fades away. 4. AC announces orders for 75 aircraft. 5. 2017? Toronto city council reviews runway extension. 6. AC/SkyRegional to operate CS300's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Bigger things afoot here, two issues to bring to the table. 1) AC is repatriating work? May I submit the following article.... http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/business/manitoba-air-canada-in-talks-369225601.html 2) With the C Series purchase, AC is renewing the fleet at a time when many are holding off buying new aircraft because the fuel price is low. It won't stay this low forever, and AC will be taking delivery of these more fuel efficient machines at the time when the others will be scrambling to catch up. Smart or ??? Sure would be nice to see if working with our current government brings jobs back to Canada, unlike the past regime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Blues, you might not want to stir the SkyRegional pot in the absence of something definitive, as no model of this aircraft is even close to the boundary, and the trick of recertifying the aircraft to play limbo with scope ( aka the 900/705 variant) was a one timer. FWIW Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudder Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 15 minutes ago, Vsplat said: Blues, you might not want to stir the SkyRegional pot in the absence of something definitive, as no model of this aircraft is even close to the boundary, and the trick of recertifying the aircraft to play limbo with scope ( aka the 900/705 variant) was a one timer. FWIW Vs Will Express carriers be operating CS100/300's? No. But there is nothing stopping BBD from designing and building as CS90 (a CS series variant with max certified seating of 90 seats). If that were the case, there is nothing in the current scope that stops AC from operating such an aircraft at the Express level so long as actual seating configuration on board were 76 seats or less). Will this happen? Unlikely. CR made a comment that the remaining E190's will reach the end of their useful life in the 2021 time frame. One would assume the same assesment would apply to the E175's of similar manufacturing vintage. AC (or SkyRegional or whoever) will need to be looking at the replacements. Perhaps it will simply be converted options on CS100's. If it is CS100's they will be flown by mainline pilots. Absent an E2 order placed sometime in 2019/2020, it may be the end of the line for the EMB product in Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 There is context to the 'end of useful life' comment. The aircraft are, I understand, due for a significant check around that timeframe (they all arrived in a relatively short span of time, so all with timex accordingly). While it sounds like this work is uneconomical for AC, the impending maintenance may make them a bargain for someone else. Whether that someone else is Canadian or not, 3 years is a long time, lots will change. Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 1 hour ago, Vsplat said: Blues, you might not want to stir the SkyRegional pot in the absence of something definitive, as no model of this aircraft is even close to the boundary, and the trick of recertifying the aircraft to play limbo with scope ( aka the 900/705 variant) was a one timer. FWIW Vs No real pot stir here but thanks for the heads up. I don't have a clue about AC's collective agreement with its pilots. Sorry if you missed it but my post was more a comment of how things sometimes evolve in this country when it comes to airlines, airplanes and the government du Canada. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudder Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 8 minutes ago, Rich Pulman said: Well, as we've seen in the past few years, "scope" is a fairly fluid term at AC. Seems to me it's more about what type of flying ACPA feels is beneath it members (Q400, EMJ175, CRJ, etc.) and leveraging the "crappy" flying to get better benefits for some pilots at the expense of others, rather than the number of seats in any particular make & model of aircraft. If ACPA was bold and brave, they'd find a way to include the outliers under their leadership to the benefit of all pilots working under the Air Canada banner. In that way, "scope" would become an obsolete term. I would not characterize it that way. In point of fact, ACPA tried to maintain a scope threshold that far exceeded the industry norm and left AC at a competitive disadvantage. The CRJ's and the E175's were only removed from AC as part of third party processes (CCAA circa 2003 and the government intervention in collective bargaining in 2009). Having said that, I would agree that it is time for the pilots who fly AC passengers - no matter who signs your pay cheque - to start to work collectively for both their professional and industrial benefit and potentially for the benefit of AC. A good start would be representation under the same Union banner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 Labour's party is rapidly coming to an end. By the time AC's ten year labour agreements are even at half-life 'all' the mainline fighters of the past will be gone and with their absence the notion of scope will die. Business interests will necessitate there being a level playing field across the board which will eliminate labour's opportunity to demand the inclusion of unnatural restrictions on the development and growth of an individual carrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 6 hours ago, Rich Pulman said: If ACPA was bold and brave, they'd find a way to include the outliers under their leadership to the benefit of all pilots working under the Air Canada banner. In that way, "scope" would become an obsolete term. Hah! That's funny - are you new around here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD2 Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 8 hours ago, blues deville said: No real pot stir here but thanks for the heads up. I don't have a clue about AC's collective agreement with its pilots. Sorry if you missed it but my post was more a comment of how things sometimes evolve in this country when it comes to airlines, airplanes and the government du Canada. Certainly this is good news for Bombardier and also nice to see Air Canada support Canadian-built aircraft. And as it was with the Q400, good to see Porter become an instrument of more sales for Bombardier aircraft and maybe even WestJet will follow suit as it did with Q400. At the same time, you are correct about politics and the role of the government, and indeed airlines around the world will watch with interest to see if the Canadian government will give the C series aircraft its seal of approval and support for urban operations which is the real strength of this game-changing aircraft. If not Canada, who else can be expected to showcase this strength. The potential for sales are great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted February 19, 2016 Share Posted February 19, 2016 The C does not need to fly from YTZ to show it's strengths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MD2 Posted February 20, 2016 Share Posted February 20, 2016 3 hours ago, seeker said: The C does not need to fly from YTZ to show it's strengths. Those that built the airplane may disagree with you. Bombardier has been selling the real strength of this airplane as being quiet and environmentally friendly perfectly suited for urban airports, and Toronto City airport is the best place in Canada to showcase this strength. No amount of magic show and politicking will mask it if the Canadian government does not endorse this strength and allow this aircraft to fly from an urban airport in its own largest city, especially with local and provincial support. Summarily closing the case of Toronto City airport expansion without due process that the previous government had wisely started is not only tantamount to dictatorship but also impedes the progress of the C series program and its future sales in urban airports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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