Westjet Pilots Reject Tentative Agreement

[FA@AC]

Why does WJ pilot total compensation have to be less than industry standard?

But is it? Many of our pilots at AC have long insisted that WS provides a better compensation package than AC does. So have many of our FAs, although I'm sure that most of the pilots and FAs at AC who complain nonstop would consider themselves far too precious to pitch in at things like cabin grooming as you guys do

One thing I have gathered from this thread is that the WS and AC workforces have one thing in common, I.e. that as a rule of thumb, those who spend the most time complaining about the injustice of their existence tend to do the least on the job and are generally unpleasant to be around. At least at WS you have a chance of getting rid of such people. In our unionized environment we get to enjoy them for decades and decades.

[Guest]

Why does WJ pilot total compensation have to be less than industry standard?

I grew up around a lot of pilots. For years, all I heard about was how great the job was, 2 day layovers in Europe, don't know what to do with all the time off because the schedule was so cushy, pay like a king, etc... Then when it came to negotiate a contract, the job was horrible, miserable trips to Euorpe across numerous time zones, can't get proper sleep patterns, pay is terrible for the associated risks, etc... Once the agreement was ratified, it was back to the best job on earth.

All I've heard from WS pilots over the last 4 years is how the last agreement made them the envy of the industry with some of the best pay and conditions in the business for the equipment. Now that it's time to negotiate, the comp is less than industry standard? What is the real story? Envy of industry or less than industry standard? And what is industry standard? Do you mean industry average, or is there such a thing as standard?

[FA@AC]

I grew up around a lot of pilots. For years, all I heard about was how great the job was, 2 day layovers in Europe, don't know what to do with all the time off because the schedule was so cushy, pay like a king, etc.

You heard all of this growing up, so I wonder if the cushy layovers, easy schedules, great pay etc were before 9/11 or after.

[hammerhead]

I grew up around a lot of pilots. For years, all I heard about was how great the job was, 2 day layovers in Europe, don't know what to do with all the time off because the schedule was so cushy, pay like a king, etc... Then when it came to negotiate a contract, the job was horrible, miserable trips to Euorpe across numerous time zones, can't get proper sleep patterns, pay is terrible for the associated risks, etc... Once the agreement was ratified, it was back to the best job on earth.

All I've heard from WS pilots over the last 4 years is how the last agreement made them the envy of the industry with some of the best pay and conditions in the business for the equipment. Now that it's time to negotiate, the comp is less than industry standard? What is the real story? Envy of industry or less than industry standard? And what is industry standard? Do you mean industry average, or is there such a thing as standard?

The TA was a pay freeze at best. Told we're above standard. True if you only look at per hour rates for captains (no yos for fos) and ignore the fact there is no synthetic time and not compared to our main competitors.

[rudder]

The TA was a pay freeze at best. Told we're above standard. True if you only look at per hour rates for captains (no yos for fos) and ignore the fact there is no synthetic time and not compared to our main competitors.

You need to make it apples to apples.

Take wage expense, pension expense (nil), and benefit expense and then calculate efficiency (no rigs) and then you will have an accurate comparison of pilot costs at WJ vs pilot costs elsewhere. There is no reason that it cannot be broken down in to an exact CASM component.

[Ex 9A Guy]

Me too. However, they certainly do not have a majority support from the "NO" pilot group. It's brutal sharing the cockpit with these proselytites some of whom have the highest sick days. Is it a threat? A distant maybe. Is the company watching? Yes. Are we going to get a better TA. I believe so... in time. Do we have it good at WestJet? Absolutely!

And you have access to this supposedly confidential employee information exactly how?????

This is a tried and true 2nd floor tactic to discredit the messenger on a personal level when you can't discredit the message on a professional level.

[dr1]

So DR1is a management pilot with WJ, he,s on public forum discussing the failure of the TA with the pilots outside of the association negots team. HHHmmm, I,m no labour expert, but I do believe you are in contravention of the labour code.

CAT3DUAL,

Chill dude. There is no proposal before the pilots, no vote pending so nothing to “unduly influence”. This a dialog, a post mortem if you will. I’m really trying to understand what happened.

I believe our biggest threat is the erosion of our culture brought upon us during the last few years. Our senior leaders are doing very well with the numbers but not as good with the morale. The wppa threat is real and not one that I look forward to, it will certainly take us down a road we cannot return from. I didn't come here for the money, I came because WJ put employee's first and in turn the employee's looked after the bottom line. Do you feel that sentiment is still as strong? I don't.

BH

Bonhomme,

Do I still feel WestJet puts employees first? Unequivocally, yes. I see examples of it regularly.

I will come back to your point about erosion of culture.

I am completely removed from this situation and am not privy to any details of the TA or anything else. What I do see here is a very short sighted view. Specifically the highlights piece above "AT THIS TIME".

As far as I can see "At This Time" Westjet is doing pretty good. I see nothing on the horizon that will change that and there in lies the rub. While I cannot see it I am sure there are many more that cannot see it but in some office somewhere there are people planning the strategy and looking at all the forecasts that CAN see it. We do not negotiate contracts for "At This Time" We negotiate contracts for "In The Future" to make things better. Sometimes that is concessionary and it hurts sometimes it is a raise and that feels good. In the end we should be looking ahead into the future not in the here and now.

If you look at the here and now you will likely be disappointed in the future.

boestar,

Uncommon common sense.

I think it's inappropriate for Westjet pilots to be discussing our current difficulties on this public forum. I was going to suggest the WJPA forum is better for some honest dialog but as of this evening all WPPA executive and committee members have been locked out of the WJPA forum . So, for real dialog I suggest going to WPPA.ca and joining the forum there.

Duster,

Some of us are not welcome there.

Why does WJ pilot total compensation have to be less than industry standard? Why are comparisons made including highly speculative options and eesp?

hammerhead,

Here is the crux of the issue in my view and if we want to talk about the erosion of culture that Bonhomme brought up, let’s start right here. Since our inception, WestJet pilot compensation has been different. Our salaries are supposed to be less that the “median” or “industry standard” or whatever you want to call it and make it up with ESPP, options and profit share. The idea being that the basic salary would be a livable wage and would get us through tough times and would help keep he company competitive. During the good times we would more than make up for it, and we are supposed to have “skin in the game”. You knew that, we all knew that coming in but somewhere along the way we lost it. As FA@AC pointed out, depending on whose numbers you use we are already industry leading, but that doesn’t seem to be enough. So before anyone starts pointing fingers, maybe we should take a long hard look in the mirror.

So 10-20% of the RADICAL pilots managed to sway the opinions of another 40% of the pilot group to their radical point of view. That is impressive. This TA was a POS and almost 60% of the pilots saw that and voted accordingly.

News Flash Chicken Little.......The sky is NOT falling!!!!!

Ex 9A Guy,

POS was it? I can’t imagine what you would find acceptable.

Nobody said the sky is falling, at least I didn’t and haven’t heard it from anyone but you. I said we are facing some significant challenges, I didn’t even say they were all bad, but good or bad we all need to focus and pull together because there is a lot of work to be done and all of this is an unneeded distraction.

This is a tried and true 2nd floor tactic to discredit the messenger on a personal level when you can't discredit the message on a professional level.

I defy you to show me one piece of evidence to support this claim. I inhabit the "second floor" and I’m thinking that even if anyone wanted to do as you claim they wouldn’t need to, you seem to be doing a fine job of it all by yourself.

[hammerhead]

Paying less than median is flawed because eventually your competition clears there lists of the old guys and starts paying fractions of your salaries. It's a startup strategy. The jig is up. Undercut them and they us. Embrace change.

[spreadsheet]

I'm curious, are WestJet Pilots actually paid less than median? If so and you want to increase base salaries are you willing to see decreases to the extremely generous ESP program or options? Something tells me you wouldn't embrace that change.

[mrlupin]

Maybe someone can answer this:

I thought Westjet originally aimed to pay salaries that are at 90% of industry average wage. Am I mistaken, has this changed?

With WJ encore, I understood it aimed to pay 80% of comparable industry median wage.

Now maybe the policies are different for WJ and Encore but there is a huge difference between median and average. If in the past they were aiming at, say 90 percent of industry average and now they are going for 90% of industry median wages, that's a huge change isn't it?

Then to push things one step further, is the value of benefits or pension included in the cost comparison? Or it it strickly direct wages?

[Bunk Dweller]

I'm curious, are WestJet Pilots actually paid less than median? If so and you want to increase base salaries are you willing to see decreases to the extremely generous ESP program or options? Something tells me you wouldn't embrace that change.

The big difference in compensation is the lack of years of service at Westjet. A Westjet FO who upgrades to captain at 10 year goes to year 1 captain pay ($130/hr according to Canadianpilotpay.com) whereas an AC FO with 10 years of service who upgrades on the A320 gets year 10 Captain pay ($172/hr according to Canadianpilotpay.com). So the AC guy is making 32% more.

[mrlupin]

Shouldn't opportunity be considered?

If the site is accurate, the junior A320 captain is a Nov 2000 at AC while at WJ it's Apr 2005. So while the WJ FO going capt doesn't have the same advantage as the AC FO going left seat, the WJ employee gets there 5 years prior to his AC counterpart...

Seems to me the FO top salary might be the area that most needs addressing but then again, I have so little info on the complete picture that I am probably not seeing the big picture...

[ModerateChop]

I'm curious dr1, as management, are you taking a pay cut in support of this $100 million in cost savings ? A big part of the problem as I see it is the disconnect between the executive compensation which is increasing while at the same time the front line employees are being offered concessions. In my mind this is not the definition of leadership or a good example to foster team building. Until perhaps those in management start leading by example, instead of receiving windfall gains at the direct expense of the front line employees, I unfortunately don't see a very "Westjetty" story book ending here.

Then there is the fable of "who killed the golden goose". In the last 3 years the company has spent $400 million dollars in the form of share buy-backs and continually increasing dividends. This is money that should have been put back into the company for capital expenditures and to pay down debt, to make it stronger for that rainy day as you say. Instead of being **bleep** away to goose the stock price for the benefit of executive compensation. It's this mentality of short term corporate greed that will ultimately be the downfall of this once great Canadian icon, not a bunch of dumb pilots fighting over a few nickels.

Unless of course you believe all that hokum about treating your front line employees with respect and they in turn will look after the guests who will in turn look after the shareholders was all just one big lie all these years !? Then enjoy your juicy dividends and ROI. In the immortal words of Gordon Gekko, "Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right, greed works."

It's sad to watch.

[CanadaEH]

I'm curious dr1, as management, are you taking a pay cut in support of this $100 million in cost savings ? A big part of the problem as I see it is the disconnect between the executive compensation which is increasing while at the same time the front line employees are being offered concessions. In my mind this is not the definition of leadership or a good example to foster team building. Until perhaps those in management start leading by example, instead of receiving windfall gains at the direct expense of the front line employees, I unfortunately don't see a very "Westjetty" story book ending here.

You talk like the financial disconnect between Executive pay and [insert employee group here] is unique to WestJet. It's not.

I am but one employee of many thousand. I've had a GREAT year thanks in part to the appreciation in our share price. May's profit share was pretty damn good too. That didn't happen in isolation; every other employee enjoyed the same appreciation and the same profit share. Pilots get "options" that I don't get. I'm not upset about that, the same way I'm not upset about Gregg or any other Executive getting their share of the pie. I do my job and they do theirs.

I don't get why you think the Executives should give "concessions" when they've done a pretty damn good job of managing the financial side of WestJet. I don't think they've done a good job of managing the culture or WestJet employees but that's just my opinion. The "team building" you speak of doesn't happen with dollars and cents it happens with breaking down the comparmentalized barriers that are preventing us from running an airline efficiently and working collaboratively.

Then there is the fable of "who killed the golden goose". In the last 3 years the company has spent $400 million dollars in the form of share buy-backs and continually increasing dividends. This is money that should have been put back into the company for capital expenditures and to pay down debt, to make it stronger for that rainy day as you say. Instead of being **bleep** away to goose the stock price for the benefit of executive compensation. It's this mentality of short term corporate greed that will ultimately be the downfall of this once great Canadian icon, not a bunch of dumb pilots fighting over a few nickels.

What is a rainy day fund going to do when your costs are too high? Postpone the inevitable? As an employees I've benefited from the same same share price as the Executives, pilots, VP's, FA's, mechanics, IT peeps, etc. etc. etc. I don't view that as corporate greed I view that as running a good business. Cost cutting is something we need to do. I don't want to spend the next 5, 10, or 20 years of my airline career constantly looking over my shoulder at the next round of concessions or the next round of layoffs or the next downsizing. We have become TOO EXPENSIVE in a business that is driven by "he who has the lowest costs". Our reputation or service isn't worth sh!t if someone can offer the same flight for half the price.

The single biggest challenge for the Executive group is how they proceed with the annual salary review and/or agreements going forward. There are already 4 groups that are "overpaid" relative to the market median. That puts us at a competitive disadvantage. I am not suggesting there be pay cuts but as our workforce matures and other airlines reign in costs (i.e. pay cuts) we become the overpaid. How do we deal with that?

[props2you]

It was bound to happen. If this hurdle isnt cleared you will miss the next one for sure. It is all down hill from there. Some call it the Big Leagues.

Yup. Every airline starts small with a great esprit de corps, some are just too shrouded back in the mists of time and/or didn't exploit it as a PR tool.

Edited to add: it's mighty strange Bean hasn't wighed in on this when he's posting elsewhere.

[DEFCON]

Never ending growth is a son-of-a-B. While 'Founders' like dr1 enjoyed a huge windfall gain in return for his effort, expecting the present day newer FO to sacrifice his productive working years to support shareholder dividends etc. is a little bit short-sighted....I think.

[hammerhead]

I'm curious, are WestJet Pilots actually paid less than median? If so and you want to increase base salaries are you willing to see decreases to the extremely generous ESP program or options? Something tells me you wouldn't embrace that change.

Depends what you call median and if you only look at hourly rates ignore yos synthetic time etc. As for esp and options let's remember there is no pension. If you like gambling with the markets then no pension is awesome.

[deicer]

http://www.upworthy.com/2-monkeys-were-paid-unequally-see-what-happens-next-sc4-3a?g=2

[chockalicious]

http://www.upworthy.com/2-monkeys-were-paid-unequally-see-what-happens-next-sc4-3a?g=2

Talk about a dumb argument. Is it really your contention that everyone should be paid equally?

[Seeker]

Talk about a dumb argument. Is it really your contention that everyone should be paid equally?

Maybe not equally but fairly. In the experiment shown the two monkeys were paid unfairly for the same "job", hense the discontent.