Westjet Pilots Reject Tentative Agreement

[conehead]

If this were the case, that would indicate that Management was guilty of some very poor communication. And I doubt that is true.

[Bonhomme]

DR1, agreed we are facing some "really significant challenges" but I don't believe it is the bottom line. Jetsgo was a challenge we survived despite some loosing quarters and who took the first and only pay cut then? That was true leadership! Last week I voted no to this agreement because I felt the changes they were asking for were not warranted at this time.

I believe our biggest threat is the erosion of our culture brought upon us during the last few years. Our senior leaders are doing very well with the numbers but not as good with the morale. The wppa threat is real and not one that I look forward to, it will certainly take us down a road we cannot return from. I didn't come here for the money, I came because WJ put employee's first and in turn the employee's looked after the bottom line. Do you feel that sentiment is still as strong? I don't.

BH

[boestar]

DR1, agreed we are facing some "really significant challenges" but I don't believe it is the bottom line. Jetsgo was a challenge we survived despite some loosing quarters and who took the first and only pay cut then? That was true leadership! Last week I voted no to this agreement because I felt the changes they were asking for were not warranted at this time.

I am completely removed from this situation and am not privy to any details of the TA or anything else. What I do see here is a very short sighted view. Specifically the highlights piece above "AT THIS TIME".

As far as I can see "At This Time" Westjet is doing pretty good. I see nothing on the horizon that will change that and there in lies the rub. While I cannot see it I am sure there are many more that cannot see it but in some office somewhere there are people planning the strategy and looking at all the forecasts that CAN see it. We do not negotiate contracts for "At This Time" We negotiate contracts for "In The Future" to make things better. Sometimes that is concessionary and it hurts sometimes it is a raise and that feels good. In the end we should be looking ahead into the future not in the here and now.

If you look at the here and now you will likely be disappointed in the future.

[Bonhomme]

Boestar, I can't disagree with that comment however I believe there has to be a balance between the present and the future. We cannot be 'Chicken Little' and believe the sky is falling with every rumour that surfaces or we will certainly 'race to the bottom'. On the other hand we can't act like the 3 little piggies and ignore an obvious threat (can anyone else tell I have kids). Balance is the key and I felt that the TA was unbalanced.

BH

[airt]

I am completely removed from this situation and am not privy to any details of the TA or anything else. What I do see here is a very short sighted view. Specifically the highlights piece above "AT THIS TIME".

As far as I can see "At This Time" Westjet is doing pretty good. I see nothing on the horizon that will change that and there in lies the rub. While I cannot see it I am sure there are many more that cannot see it but in some office somewhere there are people planning the strategy and looking at all the forecasts that CAN see it. We do not negotiate contracts for "At This Time" We negotiate contracts for "In The Future" to make things better. Sometimes that is concessionary and it hurts sometimes it is a raise and that feels good. In the end we should be looking ahead into the future not in the here and now.

If you look at the here and now you will likely be disappointed in the future.

We have a winner.

This is all about the future. That is why I voted yes.

WestJet is not even close to being done. A reasonable contract now ensures a smoother and more predictable future as we continue to expand. What do we have now? A pilot group that is divided. A management that has been wasting their valuable time trying to explain the obvious instead of building the airline. A management group that will now continue to have their eye off the ball as they deal with this mess.

The 10 or 20% of the hardliners (unionists) will never be convinced or satisfied. The ones I worry about are the guys/gals they were able to sway to their view of the world. It was THOSE votes that made the difference and put us where we are now. Somehow instead of hunkering down and building this thing we now have a majority going down the classic airline killing road. More , more , more. Squeeze the goose till its dead. I'm pretty sure no one at WestJet is starving. I still remember back in 2001 the numerous C3 guys I carried in the jumpseat and listening to them tell me how they were going to show management a thing or two in their negotiations .Real fire and brimstone. You know the rest of the story. I know , apples and oranges but it illustrates how the whole thing can go sideways in a hurry.

For me it came down to this. Work a little harder for a little less than I thought was going to be offered and stack the deck in our favour.

I guess the majority are willing to roll the dice for nickels and dimes and a day off here and there and live with the uncertainty and possible side effects of a team no longer all rowing in the same direction. Hope it works out...

[blues deville]

Here we are now airing our dirty laundry on a public forum just like we used to mock AC for, weird . I hope Daggers happy.

I fully understand the feelings on both sides of this discussion. Been there and done that. I've had some pretty heated battles over similar issues in my past but it was conducted on a private employee only forum. Not a public one like this.

I wish all WS pilots success with their negotiations, however, should you be discussing your contract issues on this forum?

[Ex 9A Guy]

So 10-20% of the RADICAL pilots managed to sway the opinions of another 40% of the pilot group to their radical point of view. That is impressive. This TA was a POS and almost 60% of the pilots saw that and voted accordingly.

News Flash Chicken Little.......The sky is NOT falling!!!!!

[Duster]

I think it's inappropriate for Westjet pilots to be discussing our current difficulties on this public forum. I was going to suggest the WJPA forum is better for some honest dialog but as of this evening all WPPA executive and committee members have been locked out of the WJPA forum . So, for real dialog I suggest going to WPPA.ca and joining the forum there.

[hammerhead]

The sky is always falling in this business. There is always going to be a jetsgo. Why does everyone keep biting the hook. These '95%' or '80% of industry standard' pay philosophies are flawed and forced AC into matching WJ's lower scales with no YOS creating Rouge. We undercut them...they undercut us...we undercut ourselves. Insanity.

[hammerhead]

I think it's inappropriate for Westjet pilots to be discussing our current difficulties on this public forum. I was going to suggest the WJPA forum is better for some honest dialog but as of this evening all WPPA executive and committee members have been locked out of the WJPA forum . So, for real dialog I suggest going to WPPA.ca and joining the forum there.

Is that even legal? You're talking about Cathay P right?

[dagger]

I think it's inappropriate for Westjet pilots to be discussing our current difficulties on this public forum. I was going to suggest the WJPA forum is better for some honest dialog but as of this evening all WPPA executive and committee members have been locked out of the WJPA forum . So, for real dialog I suggest going to WPPA.ca and joining the forum there.

Putting on my labour hat from the past, I don't think it matters. You don't have the right to strike so there really is no strategy to divulge. Your best weapon against the company is public disagreement with the contents of the TA. I suspect the company will want to silence that kind of talk with an improved offer. If you talk about it in private, trust me, the company will know what is being said because there is always a snitch or plant in these situations.

[FA@AC]

You don't have the right to strike so there really is no strategy to divulge.

Hah! Does anyone in Canada have the right to strike under The Dear Leader's government? (Not that I'd imagine things at WestJet going anywhere near as far as a strike even if their employees were unionized).

[chockalicious]

I see the WPPA site has put names to some of the positions. I am surprised at some of the names I see, not so surprised at some of the others.

[thor]

I see the WPPA site has put names to some of the positions. I am surprised at some of the names I see, not so surprised at some of the others.

Me too. However, they certainly do not have a majority support from the "NO" pilot group. It's brutal sharing the cockpit with these proselytites some of whom have the highest sick days. Is it a threat? A distant maybe. Is the company watching? Yes. Are we going to get a better TA. I believe so... in time. Do we have it good at WestJet? Absolutely!

[Bonhomme]

Thor, it's a common reaction to attack the messenger when you don't like the message but it does little to bolster your argument. Regardless of the outcome these individuals are sticking their neck out for our benefit. We do have it good at WJ and thanks to those who voiced their opinions during this TA we still do.

BH

[boestar]

I see a common mentality here. I am sure there will be flames here.....

When times are good the employee groups try to squeeze as much from the company as possible. To "Share the wealth" While that's all well and good, what happens when the bad times hit? Fortunately WestJet has not really had to weather any "Bad Times" as yet. That is part and parcel to good fiscal management and not overdoing it during the good times. Employee groups will fight tooth and nail not to give back in the bad times but will also fight hard to take in the good times. It is human nature.

If the Pilot group (or any other) take too much now then there is not nearly as much to weather the bad times and that's when things get ugly. The company could be unable to carry the weight through a drought and start laying off, cutting back, and cutting COSTS. One of the largest costs (next to fuel) is labour.

So the short sighted look at saying "Things are good, give me more" does not look forward enough at a future downturn, and there will be one, there always is. I have been through a few.

Call it saving for a rainy day. Remember, you are all owners and with that comes the responsibility for the profits and well as the deficits. If you want to TRULY share the wealth.

[airt]

I knew I had read this sometime in the past with regard to "the goose". Thank you google.

The Summer From Hell, reveals how Frederick Dubinsky was directly responsible for the beginning of the end, at United Airlines.

Of all the 25,000 canceled flights, of all the customers stranded by United Airlines' summer of delays and disservice three years ago, Gerry Nendick remembers the weeping woman trying to make a funeral.

The passenger's sister had died in a traffic accident. She was desperate to get to the service in Pennsylvania. But her United flight out of O'Hare International Airport had been delayed once--a mechanical problem, the pilot had said. Now it looked like the replacement plane might be canceled too.

Tears streamed down the woman's face as she appealed to Nendick, a United customer service rep who had spent two decades trying to solve passengers' problems.

Hoping to plead the woman's case, Nendick poked her head into the cockpit. The captain turned around and asked, "Who's going to kiss me first? This flight is canceled."

Fixing the smug pilot with a glare, she sputtered, "You go out and tell the woman who is going to miss her sister's funeral how happy you are."

Dubinsky promised hard-nosed tactics. Goodwin recalls that Dubinsky in one meeting repeated his oft-stated philosophy of negotiations. "We don't want to kill the golden goose,'' he said. "We just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg." With United "awash in cash," in Dubinsky's words, he figured the goose had plenty of eggs to spare.

[Kip Powick]

I hate it when I have to Google the players of a previous post.

Fredrick Dubinsky = Head of pilot union at United

Gerry Nendick = a CSA at ORD

Goodwin = CEO of United at the time

Pilot who cancelled flight= who knows and who cares?

There is no point to the story about cancelling the flight that the bereaved was trying to get on. There had to be a good reason to cancel, I'm sure the pilot cancelled for 'legal' reasons and not out of spite.

The fact that Frederick Dubinsky made the goose statement is all that matters................unless Dubinsky advised all pilots to cancel flights for frivolous reasons..............and that is not indicated in the 'story'.

PS...be nice to put up a 'link' as well.

[Guest rozar s'macco]

Not to fan the flames, but the goose mentality is ever-present on both sides of the table. If anyone here thinks management leaves scraps on the table in the naive hope that labour won't ask for more next time, you're dreaming. Future considerations don't work, not in airlines. Every agreement becomes the new starting point, and you might as well torch the old ones once its signed. Not to say parties can't work constructively, but expecting pilots to ease off because "what if" in the future? Trust me nobody will remember it and even if they do it won't count for anything.

[airt]

PS...be nice to put up a 'link' as well.

Here you go. Found the whole thing interesting. Sad , but interesting.

http://www.airlinesafety.com/unions/LaborCostsStupid.htm

[Kip Powick]

..............................................

Here you go. Found the whole thing interesting. Sad , but interesting.

http://www.airlinesafety.com/unions/LaborCostsStupid.htm

Enjoyed that...................Thank you

[hammerhead]

I see a common mentality here. I am sure there will be flames here.....

When times are good the employee groups try to squeeze as much from the company as possible. To "Share the wealth" While that's all well and good, what happens when the bad times hit? Fortunately WestJet has not really had to weather any "Bad Times" as yet. That is part and parcel to good fiscal management and not overdoing it during the good times. Employee groups will fight tooth and nail not to give back in the bad times but will also fight hard to take in the good times. It is human nature.

If the Pilot group (or any other) take too much now then there is not nearly as much to weather the bad times and that's when things get ugly. The company could be unable to carry the weight through a drought and start laying off, cutting back, and cutting COSTS. One of the largest costs (next to fuel) is labour.

So the short sighted look at saying "Things are good, give me more" does not look forward enough at a future downturn, and there will be one, there always is. I have been through a few.

Call it saving for a rainy day. Remember, you are all owners and with that comes the responsibility for the profits and well as the deficits. If you want to TRULY share the wealth.

WJ is not a LCC anymore. Nobody was asking for anything more except maybe a bit of YOS for the FOs. Many even asked to extend the 2009 deal for 3 years (seven years at the same rates) and it was 'status quo is not an option').Why does WJ pilot total compensation have to be less than industry standard? Why are comparisons made including highly speculative options and eesp? They include eesp in our salary to say we are making more and then say it is our pension when it is pointed out there is no pension. Is eesp the pension, not sure, sometime it's equated to salary...one thing for sure, they refuse to put it in the agreement. Basically we weren't asking for s#$%, now were a bunch of out of touch greedy aholes that could care less.The classic is where we get compared to greedy GM workers that took too much from their gullible executive team when times were good and set it up for failure.

[boestar]

It was bound to happen. If this hurdle isnt cleared you will miss the next one for sure. It is all down hill from there. Some call it the Big Leagues.

[moeman]

They include eesp in our salary to say we are making more and then say it is our pension when it is pointed out there is no pension. Is eesp the pension, not sure, sometime it's equated to salary...

AC has done the same thing for a few years now by including per diems, benefit costs like health care, and company pension contributions, amongst other items, to "pad" your annual compensation figures.

[Maverick]

It was bound to happen. If this hurdle isnt cleared you will miss the next one for sure. It is all down hill from there. Some call it the Big Leagues.

Wow