Westjet Pilots Reject Tentative Agreement

[dagger]

Anyone who flies for WS care to enlighten the non-pilots here on what issues will be key at the table?

Tentative pilot agreement not ratified

Current agreement remains in place as WestJet and the WJPA work toward a new agreement

CALGARY, Nov. 29, 2013 /CNW/ - WestJet announced today that its pilots have voted against a tentative agreement by a margin of 58.7 per cent. Turnout was very strong, with 96 per cent of pilots voting.

The current agreement remains in effect until a new agreement is reached. Pilots at WestJet are represented by the WestJet Pilots Association (WJPA), a non-union employee association.

"We are disappointed with the results of the vote," said Gregg Saretsky, WestJet President and CEO. "Our leadership team and the WJPA will regroup in the coming weeks, focusing on understanding the specific concerns of the pilot group and, just as we've always done, work collaboratively to bring forward a new agreement."

[rudder]

Sad part here is that the WJPA and WJ will now focus on getting only the missing 8.8% support. That strategy will only feed in to the drive for a certified bargaining agent on the property rather than a mock bargaining agent. Any normal course bargaining agreement that ratifies below 75% is a FAILURE on the part of the negotiating committee and the Executive structure that directed them.

Issues? From talking to some of my WJ acquaintances there are many, not the least of which was the Encore debacle.

[airt]

Bottom line , the pilots viewed many aspects of the TA as concessionary

[dagger]

How convenient for management ( ) that a story leaks out about a plan to launch Canada Jetlines in .... western Canada!

[airt]

How convenient for management ( ) that a story leaks out about a plan to launch Canada Jetlines in .... western Canada!

We knew about that months ago.

[mrlupin]

Sad part here is that the WJPA and WJ will now focus on getting only the missing 8.8% support. That strategy will only feed in to the drive for a certified bargaining agent on the property rather than a mock bargaining agent. Any normal course bargaining agreement that ratifies below 75% is a FAILURE on the part of the negotiating committee and the Executive structure that directed them.

Issues? From talking to some of my WJ acquaintances there are many, not the least of which was the Encore debacle.

At least they are still negotiating!

Some other airline had to run to the Feds to impose a contract.

[rudder]

At least they are still negotiating!

Some other airline had to run to the Feds to impose a contract.

They have to keep on negotiating as they are not represented by a certified bargaining agent they have no right to 'self help' under the Canada Labour Code.

[anonymous]

Technically we do not have to keep negotiating, it is all for show, our conditions can be imposed at will for the exact reason that we do not have independent representation.

The WJPA is just a subgroup of the company wide PACT. As such it is greatly influenced by the corporation, outside help is not normally permitted whether it be independent market analysis etc. It's all about control with the current model.

The fact that our "reps" strongly supported version one and version two of this TA should say something

[rudder]

Other than increasing the membership fees, what will a "certified bargaining agent" do for the pilot group that a "mock bargaining agent" cannot?

Really?

How were the negotiating committee selected?

How did the negotiating committee get its mandate?

How were the WJPA Executive selected?

Who directs the WJPA Executive?

To whom are the WJPA Executive accountable?

Can the WJPA Executive be replaced at the will of the membership?

Can the negotiating committee be replaced at the will of the membership?

Can the WJ pilots legally strike? (I will take the opportunity to answer this one - no).

Does the WJPA have a Constitution?

The list goes on......

Even the SWA pilots figured out that they needed a union years ago. This rejection (the second rejection by WJ pilots) and the discomfort over the corporate steamrolling of the Encore business implementation has many WJ pilots questioning the status quo bargaining arrangement.

THEY are the ones that have started the dialogue regarding a certified bargaining agent:

http://www.wppa.ca/

I will let you take a look at the reasons that they feel that it is time for a certified bargaining agent. Employers get the union that they deserve. It is starting to look like WJ management want a unionised pilot group. Having said that, if the WPPA do not have enough signed cards in the wake of a 59% TA rejection to submit an application to the CIRB then the pilot group will remain internally divided and ultimately will fall victim to a 50.1% ratification quality working agreement.

[dr1]

Technically we do not have to keep negotiating, it is all for show, our conditions can be imposed at will for the exact reason that we do not have independent representation.

The WJPA is just a subgroup of the company wide PACT. As such it is greatly influenced by the corporation, outside help is not normally permitted whether it be independent market analysis etc. It's all about control with the current model.

The fact that our "reps" strongly supported version one and version two of this TA should say something

What a crock. Conditions have never been "imposed" on the pilots, they have always been negotiated and outside help has always been available to the WJPA. If the current leaders chose not to avail themselves of any, that is a separate issue.

The fact that the WJPA supported TA1 only shows that they understand interest based bargaining, something the pilots no longer do.

[rudder]

With respect, none of your questions answers mine. I'm not trying to be acrimonious, just curious. It has been my experience that people believe unions will do a lot more for them than is really possible. I'm not interested in the reasons WestJet pilots have for wanting a union, just what they think will be achieved by adopting one. (BTW, I do have some familiarity with this kind of issue.)

It would appear from the public portion of the WPPA website that some of the goals include "transparency and accountability". That can only exist within a representational structure that includes a set of enforceable rules and by-laws (otherwise known as a Constitution). I presume that the current arrangement for the WJ pilots under the WJPA/PACT scenario that this feature is either weak or absent.

Watching TA's get voted down at a rate of 60% is indicative of a gross disconnect between the membership and the representation regardless of structure.

[Seeker]

What a crock. Conditions have never been "imposed" on the pilots, they have always been negotiated and outside help has always been available to the WJPA. If the current leaders chose not to avail themselves of any, that is a separate issue.

The fact that the WJPA supported TA1 only shows that they understand interest based bargaining, something the pilots no longer do.

Ahhh, very interesting. There were posts made here years ago that predicted this very situation. Posts that were shouted down by the faithful because Westjet was different and the rest of us just didn't understand the culture.

[rudder]

http://business.financialpost.com/2013/11/29/westjet-airlines-pilots-reject-new-tentative-agreement/

[Ex 9A Guy]

What a crock. Conditions have never been "imposed" on the pilots, they have always been negotiated and outside help has always been available to the WJPA. If the current leaders chose not to avail themselves of any, that is a separate issue.

The fact that the WJPA supported TA1 only shows that they understand interest based bargaining, something the pilots no longer do.

Well there you have WJ Management's perspective.

Interest based bargaining, now that is a crock in this instance.

[anonymous]

What a crock. Conditions have never been "imposed" on the pilots, they have always been negotiated...

Whatever dude. I said the condtions CAN be imposed, not that they have. Read the post. It's truth. We are "at will", GS can stroke the pen and impose the TA conditions tommorow, and there's nothing we can do about it.

...and outside help has always been available to the WJPA.If the current leaders chose not to avail themselves of any, that is a separate issue.

See "V. Cordle" Outside help was dismissed out of hand by management. Previous WJPA execs have tried to engage third party help during negots, but when the people controlling the purse strings want to keep internal control, that's not gonna happen.

The fact that the WJPA supported TA1 only shows that they understand interest based bargaining, something the pilots no longer do.

This comment proves that you are out of touch. If this is how you perceive IBB, and even WORSE, the pilot group at WJ, then you are totally detached from the day to day ops. If in fact you are management as implied above (and I think you are), then I suggest you get out and fly with line pilots more, rather than just other office guys.

This process and structure has failed the pilot group, and for you to not realize that after this debacle just illustrates part of the detachment between management at the pilot group.

[FA@AC]

WestJet pilots have turned TAs down before. Why is it such a big deal this time? Is not the most likely outcome that as before they'll head back to the table and reach a deal that can be ratified?

[Guest]

Ahhh, very interesting. There were posts made here years ago that predicted this very situation. Posts that were shouted down by the faithful because Westjet was different and the rest of us just didn't understand the culture.

This situation pretty much played itself out in the last WJ pilot agreement. I'm not a pilot and don't recall if the TA that time went to a vote, but the sentiment around it was pretty negative. Durfy took over the negotiations and in the end, the pilots got a good deal and KM was wished all the best in his future endeavours.

There is plenty of data around to suggest that a customer who has been inconvenienced and then had their issue resolved in a very positive manner will be a better and more committed (raving) customer than one who has simply had a good experience.

As great a company as WS is, there is a history of creating some controversy so that the #1 guys can swoop in, solve the problem and everyone feels great about how responsive the company is. Clive was the master of that. In this case, I'd be interested to know who from management was negotiating. The EVP of operations position is still vacant and Greg is owning responsibility for that portfolio. Were the negations run by Flight Ops and/or the People Dept (which opens the door for Gregg to come in and save the day), or was this TA done with Gregg at the table, which would be more interesting.

In the end, a good percentage of the non-pilot employee base has figured for a long time that the $100 mil that is being saved across the company is to cover some/all of the final pilot final agreement and I think most are okay with that if its an agreement that is a fair agreement for the pilots and the company.

[Guest rozar s'macco]

Modern corporate life consists of 4 yrs, 364 days of your company blowing hot air up your butt about how valuable and great you are, only to have them say on the last day when it comes time to pay up, yeah about that, we're keeping the gold to ourselves boys. Because they know you can't quit. You have no leverage! WJ pilot, take note of how **bleep** you are right now. Now imagine your union is incompetent, and the company runs to the labour minister to solve this. Because it's a matter of national importance- MARCH BREAK.

GUH this kills me. Then see your CEO named man of the year! And they wonder why we're not "passionate" about "collaboration." Good luck to you.

[chockalicious]

I am confident and hope that a deal that works for the company and the pilots does get done.

There are a couple things that give me some concern. Some of the Senior Leadership in have their heads so far up Gregg's butt that if Gregg is relying on them for advice I fear for the company, one in particular has the business sense of the item in my avatar.

As mentioned up thread, Cam's departure has left the company without an ops EVP. He was the one person at the EVP or VP level who could challenge Gregg and speak the truth. With him gone the yes men and suck ups have too much power and act as filter to Gregg for fear of upsetting their own standing.

Cam was not perfect (who is?) but he had loads of integrity, some of the people who used to report to him and now report to Gregg, not so much.

[rudder]

What is happening now is the WJ pilots are staring down the rabbit hole.

WJ senior management perform at the leisure of the WJ BOD. The WJ BOD perform at the leisure of the WJ shareholders. The WJ BOD has a fiduciary obligation to the WJ shareholders. I suspect that a major objective of the WJ shareholders is to maintain or improve on positive cash flows.

So the dichotomy is that when the WJ pilots are sitting at the bargaining table are they employees or shareholders? They are employees.

As WJ struggles with the evolving competitive environment, they see the potential erosion of rate of cash accumulation and are therefore focused on cost containment. This has resulted in the creation of Encore and now manifests itself in attention to other major cost centres (including flight operations).

It would be great to find a win-win. But the fact is that the WJ pilots are now sitting near or at the top of the compensation food chain. And that makes them a target for the cost cutting gurus. Look what happened to the AC pilots.

I wish you luck but this may be the first time that the WJ executive suite decides not to blink. And if that is the case, what are the WJ pilots prepared to do? A 59% rejection is a clear repudiation of an agreement, but is it enough to convince WJ that there are consequences to targeting the pilot group for concessions? Time will tell.

Subcontracting. Base diversification. Concessions. All part of the business formula that has been followed by every other carrier. Looks like WJ is not so different after all.

[dr1]

This comment proves that you are out of touch. If this is how you perceive IBB, and even WORSE, the pilot group at WJ, then you are totally detached from the day to day ops. If in fact you are management as implied above (and I think you are), then I suggest you get out and fly with line pilots more, rather than just other office guys.

This process and structure has failed the pilot group, and for you to not realize that after this debacle just illustrates part of the detachment between management at the pilot group.

Okay, let's talk about perception. I read TA1 when it came out and given the challenges we are facing I felt it was reasonable compromise. The pilot group obviously did not and through the series of town halls and Q & As Gregg realized it wouldn't pass so he listened and went back to the table. TA2 came out and lets's face, Gregg caved and basically gave the pilots everything they wanted yet it still got voted down. Our pilot group work max 16 days a month, get very well paid for it, fly nice well maintained equipment to a wide variety of destinations - but that isn't enough. That sure looks like pilot interested bargaining not interest based bargaining. So show me in all that where the pilots are concerned about the interests of the company and it's long term success because that is at the foundation of what we built this company on.

And just to remove any doubt, Ex 9A Guy most certainly knows who I am as do most here. I have never hidden behind my monitor and am willing to stand behind my words.

Are you?

Dave Rodger

Chief Pilot Flight Technical and Operations

[DEFCON]

It's only because of the tremendous efforts of countless union volunteers over the last 60 years that any pilot, anywhere on this planet, enjoys the wawcon he does. There isn't a single pilot anywhere, ex-pat or otherwise, that gets whatever he does in wawcon today because an MBA thinks he's worth it. Individualism, that's pilot for, 'it's all about me', ensures the unity train will remain derailed for some time yet to come and as unfortunate as that may be and for as long as it lasts, so too will the corresponding downward trend in wawcon.

Deregulation was the virus, a catalyst for change, and poison to any notion of continuing pilot unity, but that's another story. Huge numbers of post deregulation non-union operators have come & gone over the last twenty-five years. For pilots and air carrier employees in general, living within a deregulated system has been an exercise akin to surviving 'death by a thousand cuts' and the continuing trend in ever lower wawcon proves it. So, for all their faults and like them, or not, unions have been and will remain the only vehicle to a better way of life for the airline pilot.

[DEFCON]

The pilot world be a better place if ALL enjoyed identical wawcon, which would eliminate their being used as a competitive pawn on the chessboard of the corporate mba?

[thinair]

Gee Dave of all the people I have respect for on the 2d floor I thought you'd see a little clearer than " basically giving the pilots everything they want" . Just to start, min hrs down to 75, ot trigger moved up to 85 16 days in 30, vague crewsked rules, not to mention all the extra things we do for no credit that others don't, but that's ok its what I signed up for, one of the things that make us unique.

As you know the big money has already been made at WJ unless you're an exec, so the rest of us will have to fight over the scraps. It's a 3Billion + corporate machine now, controlled by people who will profit by paying you and I less.

And for the record I voted yes, because I too am a company man but this TA was/is showing a trend of race to the bottom.

Perhaps you'd join some of us on a 5 day pairing over Christmas for less than 20 hrs credit. Wonder why we dont want to work an extra day/ month for free . Please from Len on down prove me wrong and let me see you guys working multi day pairings through Christmas for low credit!

Here we are now airing our dirty laundry on a public forum just like we used to mock AC for, weird . I hope Daggers happy.

[Guest rozar s'macco]

Be thankful you're not being bribed with new airplanes. Judging by the attitude of management though, that is surely coming. IF YOU BOYS WANT BIG AIRPLANES YOU PLAY NICE WITH US. Embarrassing part is it works every time.