Travel during the continuing PANDEMIC

[boestar]

all this as the transmission rate drops below 1.0 which means the case numbers are DROPPING.  Just stick with the current plan if its working

[Trader]

So the Feds will shut down travel utilizing an Emergencies Act. Yet they have know, since the spring, that long term care homes are incredibly vulnerable and yet have done NOTHING. Thousands have dies in those homes, the most significant number of any group, yet the feds and provincial governments havn't stepped in. Why not initiate the Emergencies Act, take over the homes, provide the needed procedures, care (pay the staff what is required) etc. Smoke and mirrors to deflect their pathetic handling of the pandemic.

[boestar]

International travel is easy to blame.  "It's not Canada fault...See look at all the international flights"

When you deflect like that, you are fully expecting the general public to agree because they don't know any better and you would be totally correct.

On a given day in Ontario right now we are seeing 2500 - 3000 cases with a positivity rate of around 4% based on testing.

On a given day Canadian Airlines are moving around 20,000 - 30,000 passenger at most (I know our numbers but can only guess at others numbers) likely that number is actually high.

So say we have 20 flights that have confirmed Covid cases on board.  Sounds scary when taken completely out of context.  However the average load on these flights is well under 50% and more likely under 30% right now.  So lets say 50% and Average seating of 250.  thats 125  people per flight (WAG Numbers but not totally unreasonable) that is a possible infection rate of 2500 HOWEVER that is Canada wide NOT just ontario and of those 2500 only 4% of them based on a positivity rates from testing will be infected.  so 100 people possibly infected canada wide from international travel.

So the impact in Ontario in the off chance that they all end up in YYZ would be 0.03% of all positive cases per day could directly from international travel.  Yes that number could grow by contact transmission but not likely close to 1%

So as stated above the 80% in long term care homes that are falling like flies get all the media but no solutions while 0.03% of all cases deserve national outrage and immediate cessation of all international travel.

This is an example of how not to fight your way out of a wet paper bag.

 

/NOTE:  I do realize that the numbers above are not perfectly accurate and frankly I was too busy with work to do the research for accurate numbers.  Mainly used for illustration purposes to point out the idiocy of the policies.

[Guest1]

[Turbofan]

Much of this might be explained by the fact we have a minority government.  Polling has consistently shown the tougher you are on lockdowns the better you do in the polls. A few Premiers have taken advantage of the pandemic edge politically with election calls. On the flip said If you don’t get tough your polling drops. Read Alberta and Jason Kenny.

At the Federal level if the Libs are going to take advantage of the pandemic edge, they may feel they need to act soon or miss the opportunity.

Many are speculating on a Spring election.  Are they looking tough just to pump the polls?

[UpperDeck]

I was looking at the figures but Boestar did the work and I was saved the trouble.

Seriously....I'm wondering how we collectively can most strongly make a statement that is heard.

I flew Delta the other day from YYZ to PBI. I never came within 6 ft. of anyone and everyone was wearing a mask.

On board...middle seats blocked and the computer assigns seats to maintain separation. There was no one in front or behind us.

As of tomorrow....anyone entering the US must have a negative test. Canada already has that requirement.

So why are "they" trying to kill the airline industry with repeated comments about mandatory 14 day quarantines in an airport hotel? This irresponsible and uninformed commentary has to be stopped!!

And there is the NDP leader urging a complete travel ban on non-essential travellers. Sir....does the Charter mean ANYTHING to you?

By the way....I wonder how many appreciate that CITIZENS have a Charter right of entry; not "landed immigrants"?

[Guest1]

30 minutes ago, UpperDeck said:

I was looking at the figures but Boestar did the work and I was saved the trouble.

 

So why are "they" trying to kill the airline industry with repeated comments about mandatory 14 day quarantines in an airport hotel? This irresponsible and uninformed commentary has to be stopped!!

 

There is of course a very open question, if the 14 day hotel stay becomes reality, who pays for it and of course are the hotels set up to enforce the quarantine or ??????

[Airband]

Sampling of quarantine hotel prices and practices elsewhere

[Turbofan]

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-considers-stopping-all-air-travel-due-to-coronavirus-mutations/a-56349658

Germany considers stopping all air travel 

[Turbofan]

https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/mobile/manitoba-premier-amends-interprovincial-travel-rules-amid-covid-19-variant-surge-1.5282677

 

Manitoba limiting interprovincial travel and imposing quarantine.

[Turbofan]

The way this looking.  I wonder if AC, WJ Sunwing will consider just shutting down.

[UpperDeck]

16 hours ago, Kargokings said:

There is of course a very open question, if the 14 day hotel stay becomes reality, who pays for it and of course are the hotels set up to enforce the quarantine or ??????

The repeated assertion is that the cost of the hotel quarantine is to be paid by the traveller.

I noted that the NDP leader is quoted as demanding closure of the border to non-essential travel.

Apparently no one has much respect for Charter rights or the necessity of "demonstrably justifying" an infringement.

I wonder whether there has been any thought given to the limitation of certain mobility rights to Citizens. They do NOT extend to landed immigrants or other classes of non-citizen residents.

Personally, my health risk would be significantly magnified were I to be compelled to quarantine in a hotel for 14 days rather than at my home.

Methinks they're shooting from the lip....trying to distract from their collective failure to secure vaccines for Canadians. And to cover up failures to adequately plan for and enforce the pre-entry virus testing program.

In Sarnia, Ontario there was a Covid outbreak and a death attributed to a freighter that docked last fall for repairs. The City is now raving about the economic boom of 11 ships coming in for work.....and not one word about testing the crew for covid!!

Ontario is "bragging" about conducting 23,000  Covid tests. Does that include tests obtained and paid for by travellers...at $200 a pop? And meanwhile, yesterday Michigan reported conducting more than double the tests ....and a PCR test in Michigan runs around $75.00

[J.O.]

BC CDC just revised their testing guidance - again. https://www.healthlinkbc.ca/covid-19/testing

"Testing is not recommended if you do not have symptoms, even if you are a contact."

This makes sense. One can come into contact with someone who has it, get infected and be on the path to being sick and still test negative for a few days. I know someone whose spouse became ill in the fall. He got tested and it came back positive. She was then sent for a test the day after his result came back, and her test came back negative. A few days later, she was sick too and a second test came back positive. Contact tracing confirmed they both got it from the same person at the same time, but her infection took longer to take hold than his did.

Edited January 26, 2021 by J.O.

[Guest1]

[boestar]

The best part is today on the news in Ontario.  Lowest number of cases since Dec 10.  Establishing a week long DOWNWARD trend.  Apparently though we need to lockdown more to stop the spike.

Do you want to tell him its a trough or shall I?

 

 

 

[deicer]

This is the first story I have seen that shows the consequences of travelling in a pandemic.

https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news/provincial/nova-scotia-snowbirds-face-large-medical-bill-after-contracting-covid-19-in-florida-545262/#Echobox=1611700059

Nova Scotia snowbirds face huge medical bill after contracting COVID-19 in Florida

A Kings County couple are facing hefty medical bills after they both became ill with COVID-19 while in Florida.

Debbie Mailman of Aylesford says she and her husband, Wayne, travel annually to Florida for six months of the year because their arthritis, muscular issues, fibromyalgia and other existing conditions would leave them in in pain if they stayed in the cold Canadian winter.

“If we stayed home we'd be in agony all the time,” she said. “We just come here for the warm weather.”

They were booked to go to their Florida home, in a park for snowbird retirees in Largo, on Jan. 1. But, a good deal on airline tickets came up so they booked those and left on Dec. 5.

After they arrived, Mailman said, they weren't feeling well, but they chalked it up to a combination of their jet lag and existing health issues.

 

“When we fly, we're sick for the first week or so here,” she said. “We didn't realize we were as sick as we were.”

---

“When we fly, we're sick for the first week or so here, We didn't realize we were as sick as we were.”

- Debbie Mailman

---

Sometime around Dec. 21, she said, she realized that their annual insurance for their stay was still booked for Jan. 1, so she called the insurance provider and rescheduled it to start that day, getting a new policy number.

On Dec. 22, Wayne fell and couldn't get up, and she couldn't help him because she felt so weak. An ambulance was called and took them both to hospital, where they tested positive for the virus.

“He didn't look right, he looked awful,” Mailman said of her husband, who until that day told her he felt fine.

Mailman said she was hospitalized for eight days and on oxygen, but her husband's condition was worse. He was on a ventilator for a time, and remained in hospital until he was airlifted back to Nova Scotia last week. He remains in a 14-day quarantine at Valley Regional Hospital, where he is on oxygen and still unable to walk.

Mailman, though, is still in Florida.

“They wouldn't let me on the ambulance with him, because I hadn't had a recent negative COVID test,” she said. “I've been going everywhere to try to get one.”

---

“We only bought groceries and wore a mask. We didn't go anywhere without a mask and mostly stayed in the park.”

- Debbie Mailman

---

The Canadian government requires Canadians returning here to have a negative test within 72 hours of a flight. She has a test booked for Wednesday, and a flight for Thursday.

She said they don't know how or when they contracted the virus.

“I have no no clue,” she said. “We only bought groceries and wore a mask. We didn't go anywhere without a mask and mostly stayed in the park.”

She doesn't remember anything of her first three days in the hospital, but was told that within an hour Wayne went into cardiac arrest and suffered a collapsed lung. He was put on the ventilator that day.

When she got back to her Florida home after the hospital stay, she heard from the insurance company. It said it isn't going to cover their medical costs.

“I argued, but they wouldn't listen to me,” she said.

The company told her the policy was null and void because the couple already had COVID-19 when they updated the policy. Nor would it honour the Jan. 1 policy, when her husband was already in hospital, because the virus was also a pre-existing condition.

---

She's been told the bill for her husband's stay could be upwards of $300,000.

---

“That's what I've been fighting,” she said.

She said the company did arrange the air ambulance to bring Wayne back to Nova Scotia so he wouldn't keep accumulating hospital bills there.

But, she said, she's been told the bill for her husband's stay could be upwards of $300,000. She doesn't yet know what the cost of her stay will be.

“Right now I just can't even think about it, upsets me so much and I get a migraine,” she said. “I've decided to put it on the back-burner for now, until I get home and see what kind of condition Wayne's in. I'm just going to concentrate on him.”

After the couple was hospitalized, Mailman didn't see her husband again until he was being prepared for the air ambulance because he had been in isolation.

“He's lost a lot of weight, he's very sick,” she said.

She said she had talked to him four times a day since he arrived in Kentville, and she can tell from his voice that he's getting better and stronger. But, she said, he's still on oxygen and needs to learn to walk again.

[Kip Powick]

Yes...it is cold in Canada in the winter but imagine how much they could have saved if they had stayed home, and perhaps missed the virus altogether........ and turned up the heat.

I was shortchanged in March of 2020 when I was told I had to go home after just one week of scuba down south. I thought I might give it a go in December, 2020 because I felt March 2021 might be in the middle of COVID . I did a lot of reading, watching news, considering, and nixed the plan based on what I understood.........looks like I will be lucky if I can get back underwater in March 2022

[Specs]

Quote

I will be lucky if I can get back underwater in March 2022

Since your the nearest thing we have to a resident expert on here Kip, any idea what's the youngest age somebody can dive if they're accompanied.  Any idea where you could take a preteen to try it.    

 

[Kip Powick]

There are lots of scuba clubs in most major cities and their prices vary. All the prelim work is done in a classroom and a  pool so there is no worry about weather

.  PADI is one of the better courses (Professional Association of Divers). You can take the course at age 10 but you would only get a PADI Junior Open Water  Certification and would have to wait until 15 to get an actual PADI OPEN WATER certification

From PADI website..............Junior Open Water Divers age 12-14 years old can dive with a certified adult other than a parent, guardian, or PADI professional, and they may dive to 60 feet (18 m). ... Upon completion, however, the student is not qualified to dive independently or even with a parent or guardian.

They must wait until age 15 to become a qualified PADI OPEN WATER diver.

The best advice I can give you is to do a bit of the school work first and see how the youngster makes out in a pool.

Some people are "gung-ho" until they have to breathe under water so don't waste money on gear etc until you find the individual really LOVES the water. If they get hooked.

If they get hooked, then equipment and further courses becomes part of their water world

The qualification to dive 60 feet plus must be done in OPEN WATER...not good in Canada during the winter but can be done at a resort but resorts are very expensive.

Edited January 27, 2021 by Kip Powick

[J.O.]

1 hour ago, Kip Powick said:

Yes...it is cold in Canada in the winter but imagine how much they could have saved if they had stayed home, and perhaps missed the virus altogether........ and turned up the heat.

Based on her description of how they felt when they arrived, I think they were already infected when they left Canada. So if they'd stayed home, at least they'd have been covered on the medical insurance side.

[UpperDeck]

Deicer....please don't use that story in support of a "stay at home" regime!

The lady reported; " We're always ill for a week or so after going south." Sure.

Then more than two weeks after arrival, they realize they are uninsured....five days before the insurance they arranged kicks in. Sure.

I agree that they probably exported the virus to the US and should count themselves lucky survivors.

If however they arrived Covid free and thereafter exercised all reasonable precautions....all I can say is...Sure.

 

[FA@AC]

And here's the latest brilliant idea from Doug Ford.  A mandatory Covid test upon arrival at YYZ to which if you test positive I assume you'll be told to quarantine.  And if you test negative you'll be told to quarantine.  I think the Alberta program of leaving quarantine after 2 negative tests is a great idea, but what is the point of this one?

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-considers-mandatory-covid-19-testing-for-all-international-travellers-at-pearson-airport-1.5285425

[Turbofan]

Discourage travel.  Doug Ford sees YYZ as petri dish.

The problem with the Alberta program is that it facilitates travel.  Even had a reciprocal deal in Hawaii to enable safe travel.  It was supported by the Alberta government until travel shaming started.

Now the program is a pariah.

[deicer]

Good Morning Upper Deck

I'm not attaching anything to the story, draw your own conclusions.

I am just using to illustrate that one family rolled the dice and came out at least $300K in debt.

 

[boestar]

19 hours ago, deicer said:

This is the first story I have seen that shows the consequences of travelling in a pandemic.

https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news/provincial/nova-scotia-snowbirds-face-large-medical-bill-after-contracting-covid-19-in-florida-545262/#Echobox=1611700059

Nova Scotia snowbirds face huge medical bill after contracting COVID-19 in Florida

A Kings County couple are facing hefty medical bills after they both became ill with COVID-19 while in Florida.

Debbie Mailman of Aylesford says she and her husband, Wayne, travel annually to Florida for six months of the year because their arthritis, muscular issues, fibromyalgia and other existing conditions would leave them in in pain if they stayed in the cold Canadian winter.

“If we stayed home we'd be in agony all the time,” she said. “We just come here for the warm weather.”

They were booked to go to their Florida home, in a park for snowbird retirees in Largo, on Jan. 1. But, a good deal on airline tickets came up so they booked those and left on Dec. 5.

After they arrived, Mailman said, they weren't feeling well, but they chalked it up to a combination of their jet lag and existing health issues.

 

“When we fly, we're sick for the first week or so here,” she said. “We didn't realize we were as sick as we were.”

---

“When we fly, we're sick for the first week or so here, We didn't realize we were as sick as we were.”

- Debbie Mailman

---

Sometime around Dec. 21, she said, she realized that their annual insurance for their stay was still booked for Jan. 1, so she called the insurance provider and rescheduled it to start that day, getting a new policy number.

On Dec. 22, Wayne fell and couldn't get up, and she couldn't help him because she felt so weak. An ambulance was called and took them both to hospital, where they tested positive for the virus.

“He didn't look right, he looked awful,” Mailman said of her husband, who until that day told her he felt fine.

Mailman said she was hospitalized for eight days and on oxygen, but her husband's condition was worse. He was on a ventilator for a time, and remained in hospital until he was airlifted back to Nova Scotia last week. He remains in a 14-day quarantine at Valley Regional Hospital, where he is on oxygen and still unable to walk.

Mailman, though, is still in Florida.

“They wouldn't let me on the ambulance with him, because I hadn't had a recent negative COVID test,” she said. “I've been going everywhere to try to get one.”

---

“We only bought groceries and wore a mask. We didn't go anywhere without a mask and mostly stayed in the park.”

- Debbie Mailman

---

The Canadian government requires Canadians returning here to have a negative test within 72 hours of a flight. She has a test booked for Wednesday, and a flight for Thursday.

She said they don't know how or when they contracted the virus.

“I have no no clue,” she said. “We only bought groceries and wore a mask. We didn't go anywhere without a mask and mostly stayed in the park.”

She doesn't remember anything of her first three days in the hospital, but was told that within an hour Wayne went into cardiac arrest and suffered a collapsed lung. He was put on the ventilator that day.

When she got back to her Florida home after the hospital stay, she heard from the insurance company. It said it isn't going to cover their medical costs.

“I argued, but they wouldn't listen to me,” she said.

The company told her the policy was null and void because the couple already had COVID-19 when they updated the policy. Nor would it honour the Jan. 1 policy, when her husband was already in hospital, because the virus was also a pre-existing condition.

---

She's been told the bill for her husband's stay could be upwards of $300,000.

---

“That's what I've been fighting,” she said.

She said the company did arrange the air ambulance to bring Wayne back to Nova Scotia so he wouldn't keep accumulating hospital bills there.

But, she said, she's been told the bill for her husband's stay could be upwards of $300,000. She doesn't yet know what the cost of her stay will be.

“Right now I just can't even think about it, upsets me so much and I get a migraine,” she said. “I've decided to put it on the back-burner for now, until I get home and see what kind of condition Wayne's in. I'm just going to concentrate on him.”

After the couple was hospitalized, Mailman didn't see her husband again until he was being prepared for the air ambulance because he had been in isolation.

“He's lost a lot of weight, he's very sick,” she said.

She said she had talked to him four times a day since he arrived in Kentville, and she can tell from his voice that he's getting better and stronger. But, she said, he's still on oxygen and needs to learn to walk again.

ZERO Sympathy