Travel during the continuing PANDEMIC

[Turbofan]

If the Airlines get forced into massive reductions in aircraft, pilots and AME’s to survive, they won’t be able to respond when traffic resumes.

Market share will be lost to airlines that can respond.

Instant smaller Canadian carbon foot print from aviation.  Build back better.  Build back green

All the PM needs to do to achieve this?  Do nothing.

[Jaydee]

Air Canada flight attendant wins fight over COVID-19 workers' compensation

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/flight-attendant-workers-compensation-covid-1.5894340?__vfz=medium%3Dsharebar&fbclid=IwAR3EC_5FV3Xj6rySwNFXNuIma4eNW4uRPgJGOynV2eTSDyT6cWtH8qCGp24

 

[boestar]

19 hours ago, UpperDeck said:

The esteemed PM acknowledges that travel accounts for a very small percentage of transmissions; "...but even 1 is more than zero." Brilliant!!

$2000. for 3 days quarantine? I don't think so. Throw around large numbers to scare would-be travellers. That amount may be the cost of a 14 day hotel all-inclusive stay. Does Uber Eats deliver alcohol?

My personal issue is my belief that I am at greater risk...much greater...quarantined in an hotel rather that on my "estate" (lol).

This mad dash to protect Canadians is because of the "variants"....virus mutations. We have the UK; the Brazilian ( used to be a sexy description!); and the SA.

There is evidence of these variants discovered with NIL evidence of any travel or traveller contact.

So here's a question.....any realization amongst the cogniscenti that mutations occur based on location and "host type"? Enough cases, and Canadians could have their very own "variant". We MAY have the UK or Brazilian variants not by reason of importation but because of locally "bred" mutations.

And all of these travel restrictions will be proven to be "much ado about nothing".

No.  that is the 3 day cost including your room service and private security to prevent you from bolting.

[Kip Powick]

29 minutes ago, boestar said:

No.  that is the 3 day cost including your room service and private security to prevent you from bolting.

Y'know, it might just be worth it.....for a change of meals, and scenery, from being down here in "the bunker" day after day. 

[UpperDeck]

3 hours ago, boestar said:

No.  that is the 3 day cost including your room service and private security to prevent you from bolting.

At what point do people say;. "Just a second. That's punitive!"

Boestar...I ASSUMED they MUST mean the 14 day cost. I couldn't project how anyone...even government bureaucrats....could calculate $2000 per person for 3 days. I suspected the intention was to scare "March-breakers" into shelving travel plans.

A hotel costs $100/day. Add the test at $100/person and food at $50/person. That's $800.....for two people!! Add administrative costs of $100/day. Clearly, $2000 per person for 3 days is not "cost recovery"!

This is crazy.

And will the government impose this cost ONLY on travellers who departed Canada after notice of this new "rule" or will it apply to those who left in November without any notice other than "we recommend against travel".

That's akin to enacting a criminal law and imposing it retroactively.

And what of the "free" quarantine hotels now made available to persons without suitable quarantine facilities?

I stocked up my fridge/freezer in anticipation of quarantine. At this rate, I'll get in line here for vaccination and extend my health coverage and get someone to clean out the fridge.

Meanwhile...back in Ontario where the PM wants me to remain....my buddy ( who I've had NO personal contact with for months) carries on his business building homes; meeting with realtors and tradesmen etc daily.....no masks.

I have no doubt....there are better and more targeted ways to mitigate the risk.

[Bobcaygeon]

On 1/29/2021 at 11:09 AM, Kargokings said:

I wonder how the hotels will be staffed etc. to deal with those forced to stay for 14days in case they may come down with the virus? 

Have the hotels even been consulted / asked if they can cope?   Will we see a list of approved hotels?   The Devil is, as always, in the detail.  

They gladly will. They already are for other parts of the country ie the North, that have similar requirements. Close contacts and COVID positive people not requiring healthcare are brought down south and placed in hotels because communities don’t have the space to self isolate everyone.

 

 

[Bobcaygeon]

23 hours ago, Turbofan said:

If the Airlines get forced into massive reductions in aircraft, pilots and AME’s to survive, they won’t be able to respond when traffic resumes.

Market share will be lost to airlines that can respond.

Instant smaller Canadian carbon foot print from aviation.  Build back better.  Build back green

All the PM needs to do to achieve this?  Do nothing.

There might be a slight delay but the industry will respond and a free market will determine who is successful and who isn’t. There’s a **bleep** load of aircraft on the market these days.

If there’s a buck to be made someone will fill the hole. 

This pandemic has shown just how much air travel is “non-essential”. The world didn’t grind to a stop and we saw just how much business travel can be replaced with technology and we’d all survive without vacations without aircraft.
 

It would be unpleasant but give me access to my close family and friends that I can drive to and I’d survive. Lots of people do not fly because they can’t afford it. My niece is 15 and hasn’t been on a plane yet, and neither have her younger siblings. They drive and all their extended family is within 800km. 

For several years the biggest plane I’d ever been on was the one I flew (Twin Otter). For a family of 6 growing up an airplane vacation wasn’t in the budget... Still lots of great road trip vacation memories stuffed in the station wagon.

It’s hardly the end of the world but right now it really sucks but I’m happy to have a job too.

[boestar]

1 hour ago, UpperDeck said:

At what point do people say;. "Just a second. That's punitive!"

Boestar...I ASSUMED they MUST mean the 14 day cost. I couldn't project how anyone...even government bureaucrats....could calculate $2000 per person for 3 days. I suspected the intention was to scare "March-breakers" into shelving travel plans.

A hotel costs $100/day. Add the test at $100/person and food at $50/person. That's $800.....for two people!! Add administrative costs of $100/day. Clearly, $2000 per person for 3 days is not "cost recovery"!

This is crazy.

And will the government impose this cost ONLY on travellers who departed Canada after notice of this new "rule" or will it apply to those who left in November without any notice other than "we recommend against travel".

That's akin to enacting a criminal law and imposing it retroactively.

And what of the "free" quarantine hotels now made available to persons without suitable quarantine facilities?

I stocked up my fridge/freezer in anticipation of quarantine. At this rate, I'll get in line here for vaccination and extend my health coverage and get someone to clean out the fridge.

Meanwhile...back in Ontario where the PM wants me to remain....my buddy ( who I've had NO personal contact with for months) carries on his business building homes; meeting with realtors and tradesmen etc daily.....no masks.

I have no doubt....there are better and more targeted ways to mitigate the risk.

Taken straight from the press conference and news cast.  $2000 for the 3 days and if positive you are shipped off to a government facility (????) to server your 14 day quarantine AT YOUR COST.

This was reiterated by the now foreign affairs screw up.

 

[Turbofan]

https://www.jccf.ca/
 

We will be through the pandemic before this gets to court but the Justice Centre is calling JT on the latest measures.

 

 

Federal government faces imminent lawsuit over unlawful confinement of returning Canadian travelers

Jan 29th, 2021

 

OTTAWA: The Justice Centre today announced that immediate legal action is being prepared against the Trudeau government over the declaration that Canadian residents will be subjected to mandatory quarantine, at their own expense, after returning from international travel, regardless of their negative COVID status. These measures are a blatant violation of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, including the right to enter and leave Canada, the right to liberty and security of the person, the right to not be arbitrarily detained or imprisoned, the right to retain legal counsel, and the right not to be subjected to cruel and unusual punishment.

Furthermore, it has come to the attention of the Justice Centre that the federal government is already arresting Canadians arriving in the country by air and transporting them to a secret location, even though they possess a negative PCR test. These citizens are being held unlawfully despite not having been convicted of any offence, not having had access to a lawyer, and not having appeared before a judge. 

 

[Jaydee]

12 hours ago, Turbofan said:

These citizens are being held unlawfully despite not having been convicted of any offence, not having had access to a lawyer, and not having appeared before a judge. 

Stalin would be proud.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Jaydee

[AIP]

22 hours ago, UpperDeck said:

At what point do people say;. "Just a second. That's punitive!"

Boestar...I ASSUMED they MUST mean the 14 day cost. I couldn't project how anyone...even government bureaucrats....could calculate $2000 per person for 3 days. I suspected the intention was to scare "March-breakers" into shelving travel plans.

A hotel costs $100/day. Add the test at $100/person and food at $50/person. That's $800.....for two people!! Add administrative costs of $100/day. Clearly, $2000 per person for 3 days is not "cost recovery"!

This is crazy.

And will the government impose this cost ONLY on travellers who departed Canada after notice of this new "rule" or will it apply to those who left in November without any notice other than "we recommend against travel".

That's akin to enacting a criminal law and imposing it retroactively.

And what of the "free" quarantine hotels now made available to persons without suitable quarantine facilities?

I stocked up my fridge/freezer in anticipation of quarantine. At this rate, I'll get in line here for vaccination and extend my health coverage and get someone to clean out the fridge.

Meanwhile...back in Ontario where the PM wants me to remain....my buddy ( who I've had NO personal contact with for months) carries on his business building homes; meeting with realtors and tradesmen etc daily.....no masks.

I have no doubt....there are better and more targeted ways to mitigate the risk.

The government has been making much of this up on the fly, the $2000 seems like a number that came after the dart hit the board (slight pause now for visualization !!).

Also right from the press conference was the gem that Canadian borders have been closed for a year. 

 

 

[Kip Powick]

And the Government boondoggle concerning COVID 19 continues…. 

Just think…If the Federal Government, back in 01 December 2020, had stated that the War Measures Act would be imposed effective  02 January 2021 and all modes of transportation, (sea, land, air)  in and out of Canada as well as travel within the boundaries of Canada shall cease for a minimum of 45 days, subject to change, by the Federal Government.

In addition, all non-essential businesses will be closed effective 02 January for a minimum of 45 days, subject to change by the Federal Government.

“ Nonessential” applies to all businesses except for Police, Fire, and Medical.

Citizens are expected to supply themselves and their family with what they consider essential goods prior to 02 January and should have in stock, a minimum of 45 days of essential items.

Mandatory mask wearing is required by all citizens at ALL times  other than when residing in their personal residence. Citizens are expected to curtail all mass gatherings and remain at home as much as possible.

 

Would we be in better shape…?.. I dunno …… but to better this country we need someone who will issue clear cut directions and push the “politically correct” and  “ our rights” crowd onto the back burner while we dig out of the quicksand of government ineptitude.

In my opinion…………… Canada’s half a$$ed  response to COVID 19 , by the Federal Government, is akin to a dysfunctional one-legged monkey, with an eye disease, attempting to put out a dumpster fire with a water-pik.

[Trader]

How many doctors and nurses have gotten COVID? Almost none. Why? According to a friends doctor wife its becasue they wear mask, always wash their hands and don't touch their faces. She deals almost exclusively with covid patients (in the US). We need that message HAMMERED home here.

 

Well if the War Measures Act is needed then they had better take over the LTC homes - remove THOSE private rights and take care of the issue. The vast majority of deaths have occurred there and yet our governments have done absolutely nothing in that area.

Now they are deflecting so that the public doesn't see their poor response.

[Guest1]

36 minutes ago, Trader said:

How many doctors and nurses have gotten COVID? Almost none. Why? According to a friends doctor wife its becasue they wear mask, always wash their hands and don't touch their faces. She deals almost exclusively with covid patients (in the US). We need that message HAMMERED home here.

 

Well if the War Measures Act is needed then they had better take over the LTC homes - remove THOSE private rights and take care of the issue. The vast majority of deaths have occurred there and yet our governments have done absolutely nothing in that area.

Now they are deflecting so that the public doesn't see their poor response.

The real problem is that most ltc are not set up to / isolate or look after the residents when there is a pandemic. That applies to both public and private LTCs.   

[AIP]

2 hours ago, Trader said:

How many doctors and nurses have gotten COVID? Almost none. Why? According to a friends doctor wife its becasue they wear mask, always wash their hands and don't touch their faces. She deals almost exclusively with covid patients (in the US). We need that message HAMMERED home here.

 

Well if the War Measures Act is needed then they had better take over the LTC homes - remove THOSE private rights and take care of the issue. The vast majority of deaths have occurred there and yet our governments have done absolutely nothing in that area.

Now they are deflecting so that the public doesn't see their poor response.

I am interested to know how the COVID measures have impacted other lives.  Are the deaths from Cancer, OD, suicide, Flu, Heart attacks and so on roughly the same as other years, or have they gone up ?? 

Has there been an increase in mortality rates as a result of the COVID lockdowns ???

There is also the incalculable (imo) impact this has had on child development (Growth, education, socialization etc.), addiction issues (alcohol and drugs), spousal abuse, economic impact and others.

I guess the big question is or will be, was it worth it ???  

At what point do the words from Mr. Spock ring true ???   "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" 

[AIP]

 

Saw this the other day, mortality graph from Sweden, who has been under the microscope for some on their handling of COVID, especially early on.

There is no appreciable change in mortality rate during COVID from what I can read here.

 

[UpperDeck]

I cannot say that I am surprised by those who suggest that our "rights" should not prevail over the "greater good". The same argument is made by "profilers" and I acknowledge that I have to be reminded of the adage; " Better 10 guilty persons go free than one innocent person be convicted."

The Charter of Rights exists for very good reasons. If nothing else, it acts as a restraint against those who honestly believe that the suppression of rights can serve a greater good.

I do not hold myself out as a Charter expert.

However....no Act ( or regulation) of Parliament or the Legislatures can abridge the Charter rights without invoking the " notwithstanding clause".  That provision is only available with respect to s.2 rights and those enumerated in section 7-15.

In short...the right of citizens to mobility (s.6) cannot be abrogated even if the Parliament attempted to invoke the notwithstanding clause.

The Quarantine Act permits of certain rules and regulations. Any regulation now proposed by the government would be subject to the Charter.

It would be difficult to establish that the denial of " liberty"; the "arbitrary detention" of citizens; and restriction on mobility was demonstrably justifiable in a free and democratic society.

This "plan" to detain returning citizens in hotels at their own expense is ill-conceived BUT...since I don't believe ALL bureaucrats and elected reps are stupid, I reiterate my belief that this is a psychological ploy to inhibit vacation travel.

[FA@AC]

4 minutes ago, UpperDeck said:

This "plan" to detain returning citizens in hotels at their own expense is ill-conceived ...

Ya think???

I look forward to the news reports showing what people are getting for their $2K 3-night stays at the Days Inn.  If we wait a while we might even get to hear concerns of Covid outbreaks being caused by the rent-a-cops who'll be guarding the places having sex with quarantined guests as has happened elsewhere.

[Guest1]

6 minutes ago, FA@AC said:

Ya think???

I look forward to the news reports showing what people are getting for their $2K 3-night stays at the Days Inn.  If we wait a while we might even get to hear concerns of Covid outbreaks being caused by the rent-a-cops who'll be guarding the places having sex with quarantined guests as has happened elsewhere.

Or just maybe, tales of the woe faced by folks who despite  of the travel warnings / cautions, travelled anyway and now have to face the cost of doing so???? I shed no tears for them, tough **bleep** ....

[UpperDeck]

I just read that 41% of all " big-box" stores in Ontario are NOT incompliance with virus-spread avoidance rules.

So...how many customers pass through each store's doors each day....1000 minimum? And how many such stores are there...50?

I suspect the totals far exceed the number of air travellers on airlines that ARE complying with mitigation guidelines.

[Guest1]

1 minute ago, UpperDeck said:

I just read that 41% of all " big-box" stores in Ontario are NOT incompliance with virus-spread avoidance rules.

So...how many customers pass through each store's doors each day....1000 minimum? And how many such stores are there...50?

I suspect the totals far exceed the number of air travellers on airlines that ARE complying with mitigation guidelines.

both are in avoidance of the rules, so enforce, enforce enforce.  As the courts would say, one crime does not justify another. 

[UpperDeck]

Just now, Kargokings said:

Or just maybe, tales of the woe faced by folks who despite  of the travel warnings / cautions, travelled anyway and now have to face the cost of doing so???? I shed no tears for them, tough **bleep** ....

Are you joking? I honestly hope so . Have you given ANY thought to those who left Canada and did so accepting the rules then in place and now find the goal posts have been moved?

 

[FA@AC]

5 minutes ago, Kargokings said:

Or just maybe, tales of the woe faced by folks who despite  of the travel warnings / cautions, travelled anyway and now have to face the cost of doing so???? I shed no tears for them, tough **bleep** ....

I don't either, but a sensible plan of testing upon arrival could have been started months ago and would probably have filtered out more Covid positive travellers than policy to date has.  I'm not sure why people--especially those in the airline industry--think it a good idea to shame people who travel responsibly.  Perhaps a lot of folks don't understand how the virus spreads.  One doesn't automatically acquire it by leaving Canada.

[Guest1]

4 minutes ago, FA@AC said:

  I'm not sure why people--especially those in the airline industry--think it a good idea to shame people who travel responsibly.  

One who travels responsibly is one who obeys the various travel restrictions and does not equate pleasure travel to essential travel...

[Fido]

Remember the base figure that "Travel accounts for less than 2% of Covid cases"