conehead Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 When I read this story, I thought of our Transport Minister talking about putting cameras in the train locomotives, which made me wonder if there will be a move to install them in flight decks. Nowhere in the story does it mention anything about privacy issues... http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/hospital-black-boxes-teodor-grantcharov-ottawa-1.4469678 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AAS Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 On December 27, 2017 the Transport minister was quoted in a Toronto Star article. “We are very conscious of the element of privacy for employees and also the fact that this information should not ever be used for disciplinary purposes unless there’s an egregious act that is recorded.” The article was talking about video recording in train locomotives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 3 minutes ago, AAS said: “We are very conscious of the element of privacy for employees and also the fact that this information should not ever be used for disciplinary purposes unless there’s an egregious act that is recorded.” Once the recorders are in place it only takes one bleeding heart lefty judge, of which there are many, to decide that trampling on someone's right to privacy is acceptable when balanced against someone else's right to know what was recorded. The precedent is then set and in any subsequent situation it becomes easier and easier to get access to the recordings. I suspect that should any video recorder become mandated that it become a favourite place to hang coats and hats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.O. Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 That is why cockpit recording should only be allowed if accompanied by strong protective regulations (as in iron clad). The number of investigations that have been hampered by a lack of video is small. Let’s not over react. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 https://theairlinewebsite.com/topic/430116-amtrak-accident-in-the-usa-trust-me-its-aviation-related/?tab=comments#comment-1705266 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 15 minutes ago, J.O. said: That is why cockpit recording should only be allowed if accompanied by strong protective regulations (as in iron clad). The number of investigations that have been hampered by a lack of video is small. Let’s not over react. You mean like the "iron-clad" protections surrounding confidential safety reporting that were casually disregarded by some idiotic judge to provide information for an insignificant employment claim? Look, nothing is iron-clad. Especially these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted January 10, 2018 Author Share Posted January 10, 2018 So, what are your thoughts about the story I linked, the recorders in Surgery? Interesting.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JL Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 ...and the clerks at the Squishy Mart and the bank tellers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 44 minutes ago, conehead said: So, what are your thoughts about the story I linked, the recorders in Surgery? Interesting.... I think it is a good thing. Statistically, more people face death in an OR every day than they do as an airline passenger. Hell, when I had my last colonoscopy, I was asked if I wanted to watch it on video...I declined and told the Dr that I would rather have that good 10 minute snooze and probably wait until he put it on You Tube. Privacy?? I don't really care who is recording my movements/actions and wish there were more cameras on all the streets and in all the stores. The airline industry safety record, so far, is very good but if there were "iron clad' restrictions I would have no problems with video recording the flight deck For example ::::::::: A cockpit video recorder could be "on" from push back to 10,000 and from 10,000 to the gate.( Not for passenger viewing/ entertainment ) Perhaps a blank SD card goes in prior to push-back and is removed after the aircraft has engines off at the gate. Nothing to report???..Both pilots agree and sign the container/envelope and SD card is wiped in Ops, proven wiped, and given to another crew. Parameters for viewing any SD card would have to be ascertained by the company and strictly adhered to. As an aside, I have dash cams in all three of my vehicles and an incident that was recorded proved to the OPP, on the spot, that I was not responsible for a minor fender bender even though it was my word against the word of another driver...who was adamant that it was my fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UpperDeck Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Step back just for a moment and ask what "privacy" you are protecting by resisting cockpit videos. Everyone on this forum is aware of the impact on policing of bodycams and vehicle cams. Assertions of self-defence have been disproven by video evidence and in other situations, established by that " independent" witness. There are very few aviation incidents that involve issues relating to the conduct of the flight crew......very few. There are, however incidents that permit of subsequent investigation and there can be no doubt that EVERYONE both within the aviation world and out might benefit from the existence of that " independent witness". Some may want to protect a fellow aviator from the potentially significant consequence of a moment's inattention. As admirable as the sentiment may be, that is not a "favour"....to anyone. The plane departs; the plane arrives. Do you honestly think anyone cares about the nature of the flight deck commentary during cruise? However.....the aircraft is aligned for landing with a taxiway and the flight crew explanation deviates from the observed and all may benefit from that " independent witness". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 I'll agree that after an accident/incident a video recording might add some detail but it also could lead to false conclusions. Most of what we do in the F/D is verbalized anyway; "Bob, I'll do a cold weather correction on the D/H....minimums are now 960 feet." The CVR tells us the cold weather calculation was done and what number was derived, having a video showing the guy pulling out a book or typing the numbers into the FMS doesn't add anything. The only thing it does is allow for some sort of interpretation of mannerisms or speed of movement - "look, he seems to fumble with the book maybe he's having a stroke", or "look, he can't find the right page, maybe he needs glasses". Anybody with experience in the SIM will be familiar with this; some guys will adopt an exaggerated physical demeanour - leaning forward and physically touching each instrument or control as they verbalize the name or action. This is done for the benefit of the SIM instructor. Gets ridiculous - leaning toward the side window to provide a clear view for the instructor as they set the new altimeter while verbalizing "I'm setting 29.92 now" while looking over their shoulder to see if the instructor is watching. This is not making the flight safer, it's actually compromising safety for the sake of theatrics. Guaranteed you'd have most guys holding the checklist in front of the camera (to show they are reading the right one) before they actually read it. Anyway my point is this; having video recording does little to improve safety and may actually make things less safe. Aside from actually showing the pilot in his seat what does it need to record that the CVR doesn't already record? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 If the goal is to determine cause of accidents, the more information available, the better. I'm sure many of the same points being raised here were raised relative to FDR and voice recordings when they were first introduced. As I recall, BOAC pilots had the ability to remove the voice tape at the end of every flight to avoid their conversations being "used against them" by management. For those that have seen recorded sim sessions, you know that a single camera at the back of the flight deck would provide very little information.... one of the reasons why we don't do that anymore. Voice and instrument recordings are the greatest source of accident investigation data, but there are always opportunities to fill the blanks... for example, if a switch was not activated, did the pilot attempt to do so but was not successful?... that could uncover a design flaw. Or if the pilot recalled that he attempted to activate a switch but it did not react, this could be confirmed or proven incorrect with a video recording. Perhaps cameras focussed only on the various panels would be the right way to implement video. Video cameras could also be focussed outside to identify sources of laser attacks. Video data could be used to exonerate as much as it is used to find fault. I don't agree that good pilots will exaggerate their activity, any more than they speak louder today just because they are being recorded. And if they do, I would suggest that they probably are "book" pilots anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Not video........but I flew with a few guys that had "it looks like a pen in the pocket" voice recorders and turned them on whenever a FA came on the flight deck ... I agree with 'gator'..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Many investigations can come down to listening to the CVR trying to hear the "Click" of the switch. Just because you verbalize something does not mean it actually took place. I think the video camera is a good idea when implemented correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Cockpit camera placement is everything. Done properly, the system could provide lots of valuable information to post incident / crash investigators. I always thought the video, even as crappy as quality was, added a lot to the simulator training experience. That being said, video privacy would have to be protected, which as we know from experience with data & especially CVR recordings, is just not possible. Does the need for information outweigh the individual's Right to privacy? All I can say for sure is that I for one wouldn't want to have my last moments broadcast all over the planet on the TV / internet news following a 'leak', which would be almost certain to occur; would you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 I'm not sure of the current penalties for releasing CVR recordings without a court order but, if video recordings were to become a "thing" a good lobby for serious penalties for anyone who made general release possible would be a good idea. I'm not sure of any recordings or transcripts that have been released in Canada... Maybe Air France, and certainly none "leaked". Frankly, I'd prefer that people could see what I was doing in my last few moments... rather than speculate about them. If we assume a leak, which is the premise of your concern, they can already hear what goes on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deicer Posted January 11, 2018 Share Posted January 11, 2018 Pretty much all workplaces are covered by cameras these days, so what's the issue? I know from seeing it, that many ramp incidents are quickly explained by the constant watch of the silent eye. Tech nowadays doesn't even require a movable camera any more. YYZ has fixed HD cameras overlooking the ramp, and software then allows them to zoom in on any thing/incident/person they want to watch. Why should a cockpit be any different? Aren't we all supposed to work to the same safety standards? Much like what happens on the ramp, it is for safety purposes and does not get released to the public. As long as they don't have cameras in the locker room or washrooms. Personally I don't have a problem with it. Don't some airlines even have cameras in the lavs as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 Wow... never heard of lav cams. That makes the concept of flight deck videos seem almost like complete privacy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 On 1/9/2018 at 8:03 PM, seeker said: You mean like the "iron-clad" protections surrounding confidential safety reporting that were casually disregarded by some idiotic judge to provide information for an insignificant employment claim? Look, nothing is iron-clad. Especially these days. Seeker, that's a pretty significant statement. Are you aware of the specifics of that case? Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 The only video system I’ve used have been in simulators and when they worked properly were a useful tool. For reasons already discussed I firmly believed some people made sure they were always broken. However, when I was doing training or checking it also allowed me to see how I was conducting a session as instructor/ACP. Always an eye opener to hear or see yourself in action and I tried to make the appropriate corrections. If flight deck camera tapes were safely erased after park brakes set I believe it would be acceptable. We currently have CVR’s and FDR’s. More important items are alredy being recorded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 I don't think there is too much disagreement that protection is required. Not because anyone has stuff to hide, but because of the consequences of misinterpretation or opportunistic re-interpretation of what is seen. Rant/ I'm not sure which is worse - lawyers hungry for a career case or the parade of 'experts' trying to get themselves on camera while spouting unfounded and often provably wrong speculation. I swear, at times like that, you can catch an e coli infection from the BS coming through the TV screen. /end rant As for whether protections are truly effective, it depends where on earth you are. Canada is pretty good. I think the NTSB is still pretty good, but we are seeing snippets come out with a narrative. Still better than a free for all. If speculation is a problem, then facts are the answer. I say, video might be helpful to the flight deck crew in the event of a bad day at work. Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 I would suggest that more can be take from a voice recording that a video recording if something is being said that you wouldnt want anyone else to hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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