AirCanada Lands in SFO despite being told to abort

[mo32a]

19 hours ago, blues deville said:

I’m hoping that the fatigue issue gets addressed because I firmly believe the near taxiway landing was a direct result of tired pilots. 

Fatigue? 5.5 hour flight, really?

[beaverboy]

12 minutes ago, mo32a said:

Fatigue? 5.5 hour flight, really?

Was it their only flight?   What time zone did they begin their day in?   Where are these pilots based?  Time zone would probably have played a role in this.   

[blues deville]

54 minutes ago, mo32a said:

Fatigue? 5.5 hour flight, really?

Correct MO. Fatigue isn’t always due to the flight time. Captain started his day in YYT. 4.5 time zones. Landing SFO equivalent of YYZ after 3am for FO. Later for Captain who was operating one of his monthly management flights. 

[DEFCON]

To be fair, very few humans are capable of bringing their 'A Game' to the show during the middle of their night, airline schedules to the contrary.

 

 

 

[DEFCON]

PS: No offense intended Blues, someone's got to do it I guess, but the nature of the flying you do never appealed to me. I can't imagine showing up for work after dark to begin a 15 hour flight; it's just plain old unhealthy, not to mention extremely boring and regardless of so-called rest periods, I think it would still be difficult to remain on your game.

 

 

[Guest]

Air Canada to conduct ‘immediate safety review’ following San Francisco close calls

The Air Canada reviews show how serious the two SFO incidents with the airline were, including one which aviation experts have said could have caused one of the deadliest aviation disasters ever.

In July 2017, an Air Canada jet nearly landed on four passenger jets awaiting takeoff at San Francisco International Airport after the flight crew mistook a crowded taxiway for its intended runway.  (

By Matthias GafniBay Area News Group

Thu., Jan. 18, 2018

SAN FRANCISCO—Following two alarming close-calls at San Francisco International Airport last year, Air Canada has agreed to an immediate safety review of its entire operations, including increased pilot training and a closer look at the airline’s arrivals and departures at SFO.

The airline’s agreement — worked out with Transport Canada — comes amid a spike in incidents involving other airlines during takeoffs and landings at SFO. The National Transportation Safety Board is also investigating a December 2016 incident where a passenger jet almost pulled onto a runway in front of a departing jet, as well as a February 2017 incident where a plane aborted a landing when it learned another commercial jet was on the runway.

But the sweeping Air Canada reviews show how serious the two SFO incidents with the airline were, including one which aviation experts have said could have caused one of the deadliest aviation disasters ever.

“Many airlines have gone through this type of scrutiny after a major problem,” said Ross Aimer, a retired United Airlines pilot and CEO of Aero Consulting Experts, who has followed the SFO mishaps.

“These are all good and welcomed measures. However, I don’t see a crucial part, which is a look at pilot fatigue issues in Canada.”

Article Continued Below

Aimer said he believes fatigue played a role in both Air Canada incidents at SFO.

In July, an Air Canada jet nearly landed on four passenger jets awaiting takeoff after the flight crew mistook a crowded taxiway for its intended runway.

In October, an Air Canada jet ignored repeated orders from the tower to abort its landing because air traffic controllers feared a different plane was still on the runway. The Air Canada lane landed safely, and later explained that it was having problems with its radio.

“Transport Canada continues to work with Air Canada as a result of these incidents,” said Transport Canada spokesperson Marie-Anyk Côté. “To date, the department is satisfied with the review conducted by Air Canada of their Airbus program as well as the corrective action plan they have put in place to address identified issues.”

The measures include:

• Conducting an immediate safety review of Air Canada’s operations;
• Reducing intervals between pilot training and evaluation from eight to six months for the next three years;
• Conducting four inflight surveillance flights into and out of SFO;
• Appointing a technical adviser to observe the ongoing SFO investigations;
• Enhancing surveillance activities on the airline’s narrow body Airbus fleet and;
• Air Canada conducting a complete review of its operations.

 

Air Canada did not respond to a request for comment. Côté said Air Canada’s operations audit is ongoing.

Federal Aviation Administration spokesperson Ian Gregor said his agency is “satisfied with the actions (Air Canada and Transport Canada) have taken.”

Last week, an Aeromexico plane lined up to the wrong runway, where a Virgin America plane was waiting to depart. That plane dropped to about 76 metres (250 feet) and was about 1 kilometre from the start of the runway before aborting the landing and flying over the other aircraft, according to data reviewed by this news agency.

The NTSB is also investigating a Feb. 15 incident at SFO, during which Compass Airlines Flight 6081 had been cleared to land on the same runway where a Virgin America plane had been cleared to wait for takeoff. The Airport Surface Detection System radar alerted the tower of the mistake and the Compass flight successfully aborted its landing.

Federal investigators are also probing a runway incident on Dec. 14, 2016 at SFO when a SkyWest Airlines flight entered the runway as another jet taking off raced past, according to the NTSB.

[blues deville]

59 minutes ago, DEFCON said:

PS: No offense intended Blues, someone's got to do it I guess, but the nature of the flying you do never appealed to me. I can't imagine showing up for work after dark to begin a 15 hour flight; it's just plain old unhealthy, not to mention extremely boring and regardless of so-called rest periods, I think it would still be difficult to remain on your game.

 

 

None taken. And 100% on the boring. 

International (foreign based) long haul flying is brutal on one’s body and mind. You’re never really in sync with anything or anywhere. Spending time in the gym helps but even that doesn’t eliminate the adverse effects. I was well warned of the lifestyle but it’s kept me employed when my choices were limited. However, I’m in the process of making some changes for a healthier future.

[QFE]

"reducing pilot training from eight to six months"

Is this a misprint? I thought everyone did six month intervals.

[Vsplat]

QFE, it is a (partial) misprint.  The 8 month was correct, though.  Transport Canada has adopted the FAA Advanced Qualification Program, which allows an even longer interval.  Canadian AQP programs are maxed at 8 months.

That said, I believe the next training cycle is at 4 months, not 6 for the narrow body bus.  Someone more in the know might correct that.

Vs

[blues deville]

AQP info.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/standards/commerce-aqp-chapter1-section1-1888.htm

[Moon The Loon]

19 hours ago, DEFCON said:

To be fair, very few humans are capable of bringing their 'A Game' to the show during the middle of their night, airline schedules to the contrary.

Disagree. Have brought my "A" game many times in the past including flights where one takes off after sunset, then watches an entire "day" go by only to land late at night at destination.

I had jobs where 90%+ of my flights were entirely at night.

True, it's not everyone's bailiwick...

[conehead]

47 minutes ago, Moon The Loon said:

Disagree. Have brought my "A" game many times in the past including flights where one takes off after sunset, then watches an entire "day" go by only to land late at night at destination.

I had jobs where 90%+ of my flights were entirely at night.

True, it's not everyone's bailiwick...

You have my admiration Captain.  After many years of working overnight shifts maintaining aircraft, I could never fathom how you guys survive submitting your body to crossing all those time zones... sleeping in the day in strange hotels... weird mealtimes... Not everyone’s baliwack is an understatement!  Cheers!  

[DEFCON]

I always was a night-owl, but not nearly so much after about fifty-five. Regardless, there will always be the few who's circadian rhythm matches the job, just not too many though. When I got into the game ultra long haul was limited to about 6 hours. Technology may have changed, but the human body hasn't and still requires 'proper' rest to function.

The newest 9500 nm range aircraft make an already bad situation even worse, especially for Canadian pilots. While range increases may fill holes in the marketeers map, considering human physiological limitations, crewing the things responsibly is going to present almost impossible challenges.

 

  

  

 

 

[Kip Powick]

I was tasked to do  14 day European mission , (CV580-Cosmo)with a FO who could never get on local time over there. He was stuck on Ontario time. After 3 days I sent him home and got a new FO who could adjust his internal clock...kinda hard to fly in Europe with a sleeping FO 

[Seeker]

Kip, you flew the Mighty Convair 580?  Never knew that, I have a new respect for you now.  Early in my career I tried my darnedest to get hired at CanAirCargo solely to fly the 580.  I was "hired" and told to call in a month to confirm a course date, 2 weeks later they lost the contract and almost everyone got laid off.  Dodged that bullet and kept my old job.

[Kip Powick]

1 hour ago, seeker said:

the Mighty Convair 580

3 Years in YOW, 412(T) Sqn (GG Pers Plt)

3 Years in Colorado Springs, ( DCINC NORAD Pers Plt)

Loved that bird, one barrel roll and one stall turn (air test ...fun time)

You missed a fun aircraft and 8 great speed brakes when you pulled the throttles to idle...I came off whiz-bangs and on my first landing I just pulled the power off on the flair or what I thought would be a good spot to go to idle..

My main gear tire marks, about 50 feet short of the TDZ, lasted on RW 26 in YTR for about 3 years until the weather washed them away !!!

The other quirk was that there was an interconnect between the rudder and the ailerons which made a for a fun time when attempting a cross wind landing..

 

[Moon The Loon]

11 hours ago, conehead said:

You have my admiration Captain.  After many years of working overnight shifts maintaining aircraft, I could never fathom how you guys survive submitting your body to crossing all those time zones... sleeping in the day in strange hotels... weird mealtimes... Not everyone’s baliwack is an understatement!  Cheers!  

Thanks CH. Undeserved praise as there are so many of us who have been able to make flying while fatigued work.

There's no better way of stating it - one can either do it or one can't. Increasingly it would seem, many can't.

Not to the detriment of those few, but the requirement of us old-timers to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear of North American flight & duty times regulations.

 

Or lack thereof...

[gator]

11 hours ago, DEFCON said:

The newest 9500 nm range aircraft make an already bad situation even worse, especially for Canadian pilots. While range increases may fill holes in the marketeers map, considering human physiological limitations, crewing the things responsibly is going to present almost impossible challenges.

Interestingly, the "short haul" flights to Europe... LHR, CDG, FRA, CPH are actually harder from a fatigue perspective than the real long stuff.... YYZ-Dubai, YYZ-Delhi. On those flights, because of the 4 pilots, you spend less time in the seat than you do YYZ-LHR. I really hope that Transport finally comes to its senses one day and insists on a third pilot for all overseas flying. 

[Innuendo]

The flights I found the hardest from an alertness POV were Hawaii - Vancouver. They left around midnight and a lot of them started with an inter island deadhead, (Maui-Oahu and reverse).

The last DH flights were around 2100 and of course the schedulers wanted a cushion, just in case, so the planned was around 2000 which meant a hotel pickup around 1830 or so.

Try to get some sleep before that, fat chance.  You ended up at departure station around 2030 or so leaving you with about a couple of hours to kill with no real place to sit with your feet up.

Then you are looking at 5 to 6 hours boring a hole in the sky eastbound shaking your head and drinking coffee to arrive at about 0700 or so.

Then you drove home through morning rush hour to get sleep at home.  Yes, I bid them so I suppose I have no excuse but I found those harder to do than Asia or Europe where there was a relief pilot.

[Guest]

 

https://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/FAA-Approves-Air-Canada-Safety-Review-230195-1.html

[blues deville]

On 2018-01-21 at 2:56 PM, Innuendo said:

The flights I found the hardest from an alertness POV were Hawaii - Vancouver. They left around midnight and a lot of them started with an inter island deadhead, (Maui-Oahu and reverse).

The last DH flights were around 2100 and of course the schedulers wanted a cushion, just in case, so the planned was around 2000 which meant a hotel pickup around 1830 or so.

Try to get some sleep before that, fat chance.  You ended up at departure station around 2030 or so leaving you with about a couple of hours to kill with no real place to sit with your feet up.

Then you are looking at 5 to 6 hours boring a hole in the sky eastbound shaking your head and drinking coffee to arrive at about 0700 or so.

Then you drove home through morning rush hour to get sleep at home.  Yes, I bid them so I suppose I have no excuse but I found those harder to do than Asia or Europe where there was a relief pilot.

Any east bound night time crossing, Pacific or Atlantic Oceans, are plagued with the same issues. Some longer flights covering more time zones only adds to the potential fatigue. The only advantage flying east is the possible sun rise somewhere prior to T/D. Always helps kick start your circadian rythym. 

Unfortunately late night west coast arrivals such as the AC SFO flight didn’t have this situation. 

Over the years (and I’m included) with kids and normal family activities, a pre-flight daytime sleep at home can be hard to achieve and then off you go hoping for a second wind somewhere during the flight.

Might have been a factor for the A320 crew and these are only my thoughts:

Captain wakes up on YYZ time in YYT. Already a potential risk with time zone starting point. Add in an FO who doesn’t get a afternoon snooze for the late night arrival. Risk factor now increased. A properly trained and current flight crew but unable to function normally with threat and error management skills potentially reduced.

I’ve been asked many times by others for a short nap in the seat.  It certainty helps improve the alertness factor and I’d rather have a pilot speak up instead of fighting off headbobs. 

In addition to new duty day rules in Canada, the controlled rest in the flight deck has to be reviewed and brought into the discussion. I know AC had a scary moment a few years ago but it was just an odd sequence of events. When executed normally it should provide a more alert crew for re-entry. 

A forecast pilot shortage coupled with airplanes capable of ultra longhaul are going to be an interesting challenge for the airlines and regulators. 

[acsidestick]

On 2018-01-20 at 11:15 AM, DEFCON said:

I always was a night-owl, but not nearly so much after about fifty-five. Regardless, there will always be the few who's circadian rhythm matches the job, just not too many though. When I got into the game ultra long haul was limited to about 6 hours. Technology may have changed, but the human body hasn't and still requires 'proper' rest to function.

The newest 9500 nm range aircraft make an already bad situation even worse, especially for Canadian pilots. While range increases may fill holes in the marketeers map, considering human physiological limitations, crewing the things responsibly is going to present almost impossible challenges.

 

  

  

 

 

Who makes a 9500NM range airplane?

[blues deville]

44 minutes ago, acsidestick said:

Who makes a 9500NM range airplane?

These are close.

B777-200LR 8600nm

B777-8          8700nm

A350-800     8800nm 

[blues deville]

43 minutes ago, Rich Pulman said:

A350-900ULR    9700nm

With a seat reduction. 

 

[gator]

4 hours ago, blues deville said:

Captain wakes up on YYZ time in YYT. Already a potential risk with time zone starting point. Add in an FO who doesn’t get a afternoon snooze for the late night arrival. Risk factor now increased. A properly trained and current flight crew but unable to function normally with threat and error management skills potentially reduced.

 

As far as the first incident goes, there's more to the Captain's fatigue situation than just the wake up in YYT ... it was about a 0300 wake-up as I recall after a single leg into YYT and a shortish layover (hard to fall asleep after a short day to a station an hour and a half east of home)... arrive in YYZ at 0700 or so and leave at 2100 to SFO (combined two pairings). A lot would depend on how much sleep he got in YYZ... again after a single leg, short day how do you fall asleep when you get home? Everything was legal, but no opportunity for proper sleep for 2 days. 

Ironically, this was more an issue of too little work than too much. The legal rest periods were there, but there was no opportunity to be tired enough to get a good sleep: 5 hours on, 10 hours off (requiring you to go to bed at about 5pm home base time to get legal sleep), 5 hours on, 10 hours off (during the day at home base), 5 hours on.