blues deville Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 41 minutes ago, gator said: As far as the first incident goes, there's more to the Captain's fatigue situation than just the wake up in YYT ... it was about a 0300 wake-up as I recall after a single leg into YYT and a shortish layover (hard to fall asleep after a short day to a station an hour and a half east of home)... arrive in YYZ at 0700 or so and leave at 2100 to SFO (combined two pairings). A lot would depend on how much sleep he got in YYZ... again after a single leg, short day how do you fall asleep when you get home? Everything was legal, but no opportunity for proper sleep for 2 days. Ironically, this was more an issue of too little work than too much. The legal rest periods were there, but there was no opportunity to be tired enough to get a good sleep: 5 hours on, 10 hours off (requiring you to go to bed at about 5pm home base time to get legal sleep), 5 hours on, 10 hours off (during the day at home base), 5 hours on. Thanks gator. That information makes more sense regarding the possible fatigue factor but what a lousy schedule/days to try and stay alert. I have a feeling the Captain’s layover in YYZ was probably less than quality sleep. Having managed pilot groups at two airlines I’ve learned something very important. That is just because a pairing is legal doesn’t mean it can be flown by humans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 This wasn't a single pairing. The pilot had to specifically allow the bid system to build two pairings in and out of his home base on the same day. Not sure if this guy was a commuter, but this is a technique often used by commuters to reduce their commutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fido Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 2 hours ago, blues deville said: With a seat reduction. There is no point in putting cheap seats into the airframe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 2 hours ago, gator said: This wasn't a single pairing. The pilot had to specifically allow the bid system to build two pairings in and out of his home base on the same day. Not sure if this guy was a commuter, but this is a technique often used by commuters to reduce their commutes. Got it. Not a single pairing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Week before last I was on AC 619 FRom YHZ to YYZ. This flight and crew originate in LHR. While we pushed off the gate on time we waited just shy of 4 hours for a wheels up time due to weather in YYZ. The flight for me came in at just over 6 hours but for the crew it was more like 12+. This culminated in a particularly hairy landing in YYZ, again due to the nasty weather (I enjoyed the landing but some did not). This crew must have been exhausted and then challenged at the very end by gusty winds and icy runways and taxiways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homerun Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 9 hours ago, gator said: This wasn't a single pairing. The pilot had to specifically allow the bid system to build two pairings in and out of his home base on the same day. Not sure if this guy was a commuter, but this is a technique often used by commuters to reduce their commutes. Nope...not a blocked schedule.....he was on reserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 8 hours ago, Homerun said: Nope...not a blocked schedule.....he was on reserve. So SFO was a reserve assigned duty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gator Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 10 hours ago, Homerun said: Nope...not a blocked schedule.....he was on reserve. I'll take your word for that. That wasn't my impression when I first looked it up, but quite possible. AC definitely needs to clean up reserve work rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 38 minutes ago, gator said: I'll take your word for that. That wasn't my impression when I first looked it up, but quite possible. AC definitely needs to clean up reserve work rules. The result of both of these events is complete overhaul of Airbus training when in fact an overhaul in safe pilot scheduling/utilization would be more beneficial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zan Vetter Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 Apropos of nothing, is it normal to make binding irrevocable business decisions at 0300 or at some point does everyone look around and say ok fellas get some sleep we’ll revisit in morning? Not saying it can’t be done or hasn’t been done but if you needed to make a habit of it, you’d want to make sure you were rested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southshore Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 13 hours ago, gator said: I'll take your word for that. That wasn't my impression when I first looked it up, but quite possible. AC definitely needs to clean up reserve work rules. Hmm, interesting comment. I'd forgotten about the wide difference between Jazz and AC reserve work rules. Jazz res rules assign specific hours of availability. There is a 2 hour check in window at the end of your res period ie at 120 minutes before the end of your period, you're done. No callout. You had your life back. Chatting with friends who went to the mainline just shook their heads at the work rules. I would have though the mainline would be leading the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homerun Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 20 hours ago, blues deville said: So SFO was a reserve assigned duty? Yes, the Captain was on reserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GTFA Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 15 hours ago, Zan Vetter said: Apropos of nothing, is it normal to make binding irrevocable business decisions at 0300 or at some point does everyone look around and say ok fellas get some sleep we’ll revisit in morning? Not saying it can’t be done or hasn’t been done but if you needed to make a habit of it, you’d want to make sure you were rested. Yes, Zan, it is normal. Executives and other people in High Risk Organizations do it all the time. 0300 in one time zone where one just travelled from can be noon in another where he has arrived to do business on the day of arrival or even the next day. The habit we need to get into is realizing the risk in this type of scenario and incorporate checks and balances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zan Vetter Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 39 minutes ago, GTFA said: The habit we need to get into is realizing the risk in this type of scenario and incorporate checks and balances. Absent an willingness to do that, perhaps regulation is appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 So it’s possible the Captain was fatigued. Where was the FO’s input on this approach? Also, how does AC categorize various airports in their system? For example does a YUL trip have the same Threat/Error/Management risks as SFO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homerun Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 1 hour ago, GTFA said: That would be an excellent post to consider deleting. What if it was someone YOU know? Deleted, can you delete your quote of my post. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homerun Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 16 minutes ago, blues deville said: So it’s possible the Captain was fatigued. Where was the FO’s input on this approach? Also, how does AC categorize various airports in their system? For example does a YUL trip have the same Threat/Error/Management risks as SFO? When I listened to the ATC tapes, my first thought was “that is what a fatigued pilot sounds like” SFO is categorized as a special entry airport....which means you are required to read the briefing notes. There is no categorization of airports when assigning schedules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted January 24, 2018 Share Posted January 24, 2018 25 minutes ago, Homerun said: When I listened to the ATC tapes, my first thought was “that is what a fatigued pilot sounds like” SFO is categorized as a special entry airport....which means you are required to read the briefing notes. There is no categorization of airports when assigning schedules. Special Entry. Interesting description for an airport. Re: Briefing notes....how is that action by the pilot monitored by the airline? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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