United grapples with pilots avoiding the captain's chair

[Airband]

United grapples with pilots avoiding the captain's chair

Tue Jul 18, 2023 - Reuters
By Rajesh Kumar Singh

Quote

"If I did that, I would've ended up divorced and seeing my kids every other weekend," 

CHICAGO (Reuters) - United Airlines first officer Phil Anderson has turned down opportunities to be promoted to captain as he does not want the unpredictable schedule that comes with the bigger paycheck.

Anderson is one of many who have passed on that promotion at United, and analysts and union officials said a resulting shortage of captains - who function as head pilots - could cut the number of flights available to travelers by next summer. One industry official dubbed it the "no one wants to be a junior captain syndrome."

Some smaller regional carriers have already been forced to reduce their flights by as much as 20% due to staffing constraints, said Robert Mann, a former airline executive who now runs a consulting firm. If pilots refuse to take the captain's seat, Mann warned that airlines like United could face the same problem even as consumers are returning more to travel.

"You can't fly with two first officers," he said. "You have to have a captain."

Finding pilots willing to take career upgrades is not just a United problem.

At American Airlines, more than 7,000 pilots have chosen not to take a captain's job, according to union-supplied data. Dennis Tajer, a spokesman for American's pilots union, said the number of pilots declining promotions has at least doubled in the past seven years.

A first officer helps navigate and operate flights, but a captain is the pilot in command of the plane and is responsible for its safety. While both are union jobs, they fall in different categories and have different pay rates.

At United, bids for 978 captain vacancies, or about 50% of the vacancies posted, have gone unfilled in the past year, United pilot union data shows. In June, 96 of 198 openings went unfilled.

Currently, the Chicago-based carrier has about 5,900 captains and 7,500 first officers, according to its union data.

Airlines tend to start training captains after the summer travel rush.

United, scheduled to report earnings on Wednesday, has sought to encourage pilots to become junior captains with a new pilot deal that includes provisions such as premium pay, more days off, and restrictions on involuntary and some standby assignments. The agreement must still be finalized and ratified.

QUALITY OF LIFE

Garth Thompson, United's pilot union head, said the deal would "go a long way" toward ensuring United is sufficiently staffed with captains for 2024 and beyond. But some pilots said it was too early to assess its impact even as they called the proposed changes big improvements.

United did not comment for this story, but CEO Scott Kirby on LinkedIn previously said the deal would deliver "meaningful" quality-of-life improvements for pilots.

Delta Air Lines and American have tried to address work-life complaints with measures such as premium pay and restrictions on four- or five-day trips in new pilot contracts.

Mann said increased flight cancellations and delays at U.S. airlines are largely responsible for work-life complaints.

"It's not necessarily what's in the agreement, but what happens every day in the real world," Mann said. "The biggest complaints come with the least reliable schedule."

Multiple pilots at United told Reuters that senior first officers have been avoiding promotions as they do not want to surrender seniority in their current job category to become a junior captain and risk more disruption to their personal lives.

Under current work rules, pilots said they can be forced to involuntarily accept assignments on days off and that trips can be changed or extended "on a whim."

Seniority affords pilots some schedule certainty as it lets them choose and trade trips, and plan vacations. But a change in their job category or airline base or the equipment they fly can affect their seniority.

A captain's pay is better, but junior pilots, currently, face greater risks of being subjected to unpredictable flying schedules, more on-call duty and assignments on short notice.

Taking a captain's job would have boosted Anderson's pay by 40%, but the 48-year-old pilot said it would have been costly.

"If I did that, I would've ended up divorced and seeing my kids every other weekend," said the Indiana resident, who has three young children.

Top-of-the-scale hourly wages for a 737 United first officer, in the new contract, will range from about $231 to $232, compared with about $311 to $312 for the most junior captain in the same aircraft.

A failure to substantially improve work rules was a major reason why United pilots overwhelmingly rejected a deal last year.

Greg Sumner was among those who voted against the deal. The 50-year-old pilot has moved back to first officer's chair after spending two years as a junior captain.

Sumner said his time in the captain's seat was "rough" as he was often on standby and would receive phone calls from the crew scheduling team at "all hours of the night."

"The biggest takeaway from that time was fatigue," Sumner said. "I was tired all the time."

[mo32a]

Sounds like they need to severely decrease first officer's pay.

[st27]

Think of a guy that has spent a few years as a wide body first officer, has a nice lifestyle living in a small town, commuting to his base maybe 200-300 miles away, maybe ex military who has already done the commander thing….why go through the junior narrow body work conditions….like the article infers…it just ain’t worth it.

Or improve the narrow body contract rules.

[UpperDeck]

Interesting post, Wolfhunter.

I was reminded of a US acquaintance who graduated from the Naval Academy and obtained his Masters. I understand that if passed over twice for promotion, one looks elsewhere for employment. He did and took a well-paying job with a defense contractor. No regrets.

More on point...changing times? Was it that long ago that if an FO passed up an opportunity to move to the left seat more than once or twice, doubt arose as to "command capability" and a talk about the future was scheduled?

[Kip Powick]

5 hours ago, UpperDeck said:

Interesting post, Wolfhunter.

More on point...changing times? Was it that long ago that if an FO passed up an opportunity to move to the left seat more than once or twice, doubt arose as to "command capability" and a talk about the future was scheduled?

I don't recall that ever being the case......For most pilots salary is important but there is also an issue with most pilots and that is "life style".  As a junior Captain, one is normally on Reserve for a year or two which means many call outs at odd hours and flying pairings that  many  others just don't want to fly. "Yes" there is sickness at times and a Reserve Captain is required...but....many do not want to be a junior Captain and would rather be a very senior FO  with a very pleasant lifestyle and a great selection of pairings that can be fit into his/her personal lifestyle.

Obviously financial considerations are a big factor  with every employee  but many forego that 4th ring to live a much more comfortable existence 

On the other hand some pilots seek the left seat out of necessity...perhaps 3 or 4 marriages with alimony dragging their take home pay to the basement  

Have a pleasant week.

 

[Innuendo]

Quote

More on point...changing times? Was it that long ago that if an FO passed up an opportunity to move to the left seat more than once or twice, doubt arose as to "command capability" and a talk about the future was scheduled?

In 34.5 years in one of the most efficient Rumour Mills and Grapevine systems in existence, I have to say that I never heard of any such thing happening. 

[Specs]

7 hours ago, Innuendo said:

I have to say that I never heard of any such thing happening. 

I don't know as many pilots as most of you but among the limited number I do work/socialize with several older guys in FO positions  told me they were being 'encouraged to take the left chair and felt a lot of pressure from higher ups over their decision not to.  It's not a new thing.  

 

  

Edited July 25, 2023 by Specs

[Kip Powick]

First.....it is the left SEAT  The guy who wrote the article makes the inference to "chair" but the industry jargon is "SEAT", we don't have chairs in the cockpit  . 

PRESSURE from the HIGHER UPS ??

What kind of PRESSURE ? 

The entire pilot system is based on SENIORITY, and no HIGHER UP can  influence ones seniority position (unless there is a merger  )

I am sure airline administrative personnel realize that they may suggest that a pilot is worthy of being a Captain, with one of the criteria being seniority, but as far as PRESSURE is concerned, I have never seen or heard that it has happened.

Just for fun......ask your source(s) what kind of PRESSURE was utilized  . It would be interesting to find out...

 

 

[boestar]

It is not always about money.  For example I take my overtime in Time off not cash.  the time off is far more valuable than cash

same for the Junior Captain.  sure he gets more money but no lifestyle to spend it on

 

[Turbofan]

Times have changed.  
 

In my Father’s day pilots made a lot of money and could afford a very nice single income family lifestyle.

In my day the same was true albeit not the same lifestyle.

Today almost everyone needs a double income.  That means balancing family interests between two careers and family responsibilities.  That balancing act does not work as a junior Narrow Body Captain.

In Canada the situation is often even worse.  Because pilot pay is so poor at AC when pilots start out, the pilot career often takes a back seat to the career of their partner. It’s simply the better choice for the family overall.  AC again makes the situation worse because of the poor pairing productivity and amount of time away from home.

What the article is showing is that money alone won’t fix the issue.   Family dynamics have changed.  Quality of life has to be improved to make being a junior Narrow Body Captain attractive and workable in the new dynamic.

Gone are the days of a family revolving around a pilot career.  It is simply not going to happen.

[conehead]

2 hours ago, Turbofan said:

Today almost everyone needs a double income.  That means balancing family interests between two careers and family responsibilities.  That balancing act does not work as a junior Narrow Body Captain.

No offence intended, but I'm struggling to believe this. Probably because I have no idea how much a junior narrowbody captain earns. Could it be around $200,000 a year? If so, any family should have no problem living on that money.

But even so, money isn't everything. The scheduling issues would be what kills the family life, and wouldn't be worth it. I get that.

So how much does a junior narrowbody captain make?

[Airband]

2 hours ago, conehead said:

So how much does a junior narrowbody captain make?

Just a SWAG...

[Turbofan]

3 hours ago, conehead said:

No offence intended, but I'm struggling to believe this. Probably because I have no idea how much a junior narrowbody captain earns. Could it be around $200,000 a year? If so, any family should have no problem living on that money.

But even so, money isn't everything. The scheduling issues would be what kills the family life, and wouldn't be worth it. I get that.

So how much does a junior narrowbody captain make?

$200K is about right.  But you are missing the point.

Two 100k jobs pay far more take home than one 200k job. ($2,000 a month difference) Producing a better family life with a higher disposable income.

$200k is not enough for any expectation of home ownership in YVR or YYZ. They would need an additional income to make it work. But a junior narrow body job doesn’t work because the job doesn’t have the flexibility needed to coordinate with a partner.  It makes the situation unworkable if homeownership is the goal. Because the job can’t attain home ownership in your domicile on its own, most are choosing to commute. Commuting to even a 16 day month can easily turn into 20 days gone.  Add in training. It’s a brutally crappy lifestyle. So nobody wants the job.  Far far better to commute to cheaper housing, make 30% less, a 12 day month, be able to coordinate with your partners job, see your kids, own a house and have a life.

Is the housing market the airlines fault? No.

Is more people commuting as a result of housing the airlines fault? No

Is Canada’s tax structure the airlines fault?  No

But if the airline wants to understand why people don’t want the junior narrow body jobs, then they need to understand why families are making the decisions that they are.  If they want people to upgrade they need to make the job desirable.  At the moment they are not, even at $200k.

 

[conehead]

I understand now. $200k used to seem like a lot of money, but under present conditions it is not. And I completely get the life-style issues... I was fortunate enough throughout all the Maintenance lay-offs over the years, I never had to commute. I know lots of guys that did though, and it can really suck.

[UpperDeck]

I suppose everyone has a different vantage point from which to assess the comments of others.

The statement made to me regarding the prolonged postponement of an opportunity to move from FO to left seat was made by a member of senior management of a Cdn airline in the company of two senior Captains.

I know nothing more though I would not be surprised to learn of an FO "reluctant" to keep "suggestions" received confidential.

Regardless, I am certain times HAVE changed especially when I read that $200 k is a relatively paltry sum!!

I invite correction but am told that at least in the US, one can expect to have the left seat in a smaller aircraft within 5 years of doh and not long after, can be in command of a widebody doing long haul. If correct then by one's late 30's, they're bring in around $350 k.

I know it's all about lifestyle but I for one wouldn't hesitate to "endure" for 10 years to be in that position. And if you delay marriage, not only will you avoid conflict resulting from frequent and prolonged absences......the "pickings"  might be much better!! Lol

[Kip Powick]

One issue concerning the reluctance of some pilots to defer going into the left seat is “ Responsibility “ 

I have talked to many senior and some not so senior FOs and they have stated that they just don’t want the responsibilities of the left seat.
 

The issue is not their pilot skill/ qualifications but rather all the “side-shows” that may crop up during any pairing which have to be handled by the Captain and as we all know, PITA occasions do pop up and many FOs have have stated that they just want to fly and be left out of the angst during an incident and the inevitable paper work and possible meetings that may follow an incident.  
There is no doubt that $$$$ “may” play a big part in status situations but there are some FOs that like their way of life, perhaps invested wisely, and do not want to be saddled with responsibility of the left seat,

Captain Roger Ram-Jet, “ Well First Officer Snidley,  I think we made a big mistake taking so much fuel”.

First Officer Snidley, “What do you mean “WE” Captain ??”

 

 

[Turbofan]

1 hour ago, UpperDeck said:

I suppose everyone has a different vantage point from which to assess the comments of others.

The statement made to me regarding the prolonged postponement of an opportunity to move from FO to left seat was made by a member of senior management of a Cdn airline in the company of two senior Captains.

I know nothing more though I would not be surprised to learn of an FO "reluctant" to keep "suggestions" received confidential.

Regardless, I am certain times HAVE changed especially when I read that $200 k is a relatively paltry sum!!

I invite correction but am told that at least in the US, one can expect to have the left seat in a smaller aircraft within 5 years of doh and not long after, can be in command of a widebody doing long haul. If correct then by one's late 30's, they're bring in around $350 k.

I know it's all about lifestyle but I for one wouldn't hesitate to "endure" for 10 years to be in that position. And if you delay marriage, not only will you avoid conflict resulting from frequent and prolonged absences......the "pickings"  might be much better!! Lol

I don’t think anyone was saying 200k is paltry sum.  The point is why don’t people want the job even at that rate.  The answer is a slew of variables.  Many of which have been pointed out above.

Air Canada has people upgrading to Captain in little over a year.  It’s not like Air Canada is doubling in size every year and in that one year a pilot is now 50% on the seniority list. The short upgrade times are not a sign of extraordinary opportunity.  They are actually a symptom of no one senior wanting the job.

People bid junior narrow body Captain. Within a few years they burn out.  By this time they are off flat salary and down bid to an FO position on a wide body for slightly less money.  Yes you heard me correctly.  The junior narrow body positions are a turn stile of relatively junior pilots down grading to wide body FO when off flat salary. They get replaced by another relatively new hire.  It’s a perpetual cycle.

This situation is exasperating the pilot shortage.  Each carrier competing for quickly upgradable pilots while having plenty of previous Captains sitting in the right seat of wide bodies.  

Companies need to address the quality of life for narrow body pilots.

 

[UpperDeck]

3 hours ago, Kip Powick said:

One issue concerning the reluctance of some pilots to defer going into the left seat is “ Responsibility “ 

I have talked to many senior and some not so senior FOs and they have stated that they just don’t want the responsibilities of the left seat.
 

The issue is not their pilot skill/ qualifications but rather all the “side-shows” that may crop up during any pairing which have to be handled by the Captain and as we all know, PITA occasions do pop up and many FOs have have stated that they just want to fly and be left out of the angst during an incident and the inevitable paper work and possible meetings that may follow an incident.  
There is no doubt that $$$$ “may” play a big part in status situations but there are some FOs that like their way of life, perhaps invested wisely, and do not want to be saddled with responsibility of the left seat,

Captain Roger Ram-Jet, “ Well First Officer Snidley,  I think we made a big mistake taking so much fuel”.

First Officer Snidley, “What do you mean “WE” Captain ??”

 

 

Lol...THAT I understand!! There are more than a few FA's.....I'm NOT associating.....who others say; "You should be an IC!!"

And as true as the statement may be, the response is....."I don't want the paperwork!!"

[Turbofan]

16 hours ago, UpperDeck said:

Lol...THAT I understand!! There are more than a few FA's.....I'm NOT associating.....who others say; "You should be an IC!!"

And as true as the statement may be, the response is....."I don't want the paperwork!!"

Although there may be a bit of that,  but by in large that isn’t the issue.

We are talking about people who have been narrow body Captains, often for a few years, who want off the equipment for lifestyle reasons.

Those reasons posted above.  Some of them are outside company control, like how housing affordability is playing a role.  Or how today, partners treat each others career as equal.  Expecting your partner to sacrifice their career, or lifestyle, just because you want to be a Captain is not on.  Especially so when there is no financial benefit.
 

There are some things that are within company control which they have refused to address.

AC has no commuter policy.  More than 1/2 of new hires commute.  Commuting to a wide body means less commutes in a month.  AC degraded C2 passes to the bottom of the pile.  Only commuters use them and are relegated to the bottom of the con list.  30 years, bottom of the list.
 

Pairing productivity.  The amount of 3 day pairings worth 9 hours is ridiculous.  This doesn’t just make pilots work more days.  It also greatly increases unstacking during block building.  People are simply not getting their days off that are requested even mid seniority.  Unstacking happens far less as a result as a wide body FO.

When you here ALPA talk about better quality of life, both North and South of the border, this is what they are for the most part talking about.

 Even if AC doesn’t realize it, they need to accept that things like housing affordability still impact them. They need better quality narrow body pairings, a daily guarantee to cover unproductive flying ( no more duty period guarantee) and a proper commuter policy that makes commuters equal to other standby travel cons.  People need to be confident their day off requests will be respected and not usurped by unstacking as a result of poor pairing construction.

This won’t completely fix the issue, but it would be a vast improvement.

Up until now airlines have decided to live with the narrow body captain turnstile rather than address the quality of life issues.  Cheaper I suppose. As the pilot shortage becomes more acute they are starting to look at their wide body FO list and wondering the obvious.  How do I get them to bid narrow body Captain?  The answer is not money.  It’s QOL.

[UpperDeck]

Turbo....

I don't understand your reference to "botl" for commuters.

That isn't accurate. All unionized employees have a defined number of C1 passes and unlimited C2 passes.

Available seats are assigned by seniority within that pass category....C1 before C2.

I think you already know that.

Pilots of course have access to the jump seats but I agree that a commuter policy is reasonable; one that gives an employee ( and ONLY the employee) priority based on seniority to commute from home to base.

Unfortunately, the prior "effort" was not focussed and generated a LOT of resentment.

[Tango Foxtrot]

While discussing an issue with their aircraft recently,  the young F.O. pointed at his stripes one at a time and said,  " not my problem " . Then referred me to the Captain !

[mo32a]

On a flight by flight basis, appoint a FO as acting Captain. It's done in every other industry, acting supervisor, acting OIC etc.

[Turbofan]

2 hours ago, UpperDeck said:

Turbo....

I don't understand your reference to "botl" for commuters.

That isn't accurate. All unionized employees have a defined number of C1 passes and unlimited C2 passes.

Available seats are assigned by seniority within that pass category....C1 before C2.

I think you already know that.

Pilots of course have access to the jump seats but I agree that a commuter policy is reasonable; one that gives an employee ( and ONLY the employee) priority based on seniority to commute from home to base.

Unfortunately, the prior "effort" was not focussed and generated a LOT of resentment.

It is accurate.  You don’t understand the consequences of the policy change from about 2 years ago.
 

The only people using C2 are commuters. Flight Attendants included. Everyone else has plenty of C1’s for personal use.

For a commuter the C1 allotment amounts to 1 per month.  The other 3 or 4 commutes are at C2.  It is not uncommon to have people with 30 years of service in the bottom 10% of the con list. The C2 has become the old D priority. 

Today new hires get on before commuters with decades of longevity trying to get to work.  
 

The net result is bottom of the con list for commuters the vast majority of he time.  
 

 

[UpperDeck]

Turbo....

As stated, I agree that there should be a "commuter policy" that focusses on commuters.

My wife commutes and there are times when we "struggle" to ensure she is where she is supposed to be when she is supposed to be there.

I agree...if on a C2...with 35 years of service...she is below a C1 with less than 1 yr.

BUT...that 1 yr employee is using a C1 as his/her ONLY chance to go on a vacay. 

Life is full of such conflicts and striking a balance isn't easy.

As suggested above....B1 passes for commuters ( no family) from home to base. Period. Do you agree?

[Turbofan]

8 hours ago, UpperDeck said:

 

As suggested above....B1 passes for commuters ( no family) from home to base. Period. Do you agree?

Upperdeck,

I don’t think preferential treatment for commuters is sellable or even what commuters themselves are requesting. The point was about equality while commuting. Not commuting at the back of the con list most of the time. Having longevity count toward getting a seat.
 

Pretty basic stuff.  Preferential treatment was not what I was getting at.