United grapples with pilots avoiding the captain's chair

[UpperDeck]

3 hours ago, Turbofan said:

Upperdeck,

I don’t think preferential treatment for commuters is sellable or even what commuters themselves are requesting. The point was about equality while commuting. Not commuting at the back of the con list most of the time. Having longevity count toward getting a seat.
 

Pretty basic stuff.  Preferential treatment was not what I was getting at.

Pretty basic??!! Lol

"You" are not bottom of the list "as a commuter". As a con, you are boarding the aircraft based upon a priority list which is structured first on type of pass and second on seniority.

If you're on a C2 and I'm a C1.....I'm going ahead of you.....and vice versa.

As you say.....pretty basic. And non-preferential.

 

[boestar]

19 hours ago, Turbofan said:

It is accurate.  You don’t understand the consequences of the policy change from about 2 years ago.
 

The only people using C2 are commuters. Flight Attendants included. Everyone else has plenty of C1’s for personal use.

For a commuter the C1 allotment amounts to 1 per month.  The other 3 or 4 commutes are at C2.  It is not uncommon to have people with 30 years of service in the bottom 10% of the con list. The C2 has become the old D priority. 

Today new hires get on before commuters with decades of longevity trying to get to work.  
 

The net result is bottom of the con list for commuters the vast majority of he time.  
 

 

Yeah we don't get C1s we have to use C2s 

[Tango Foxtrot]

Pass Privileges are not to be used for business.  Pleasure only.  How is commuting Pleasure

 Flight crew are not the only commuters.  Others do it to. 

 Commuters should have a different agreement.   A reasonable price for a positive space ticket. 

 Flight crews should have travel time included in their duty day. 

 The airline can sell off unsold tickets for nearly free to people that don't even work for them.  Why not to commuters to get to work,  relatively stress free

 

 

[UpperDeck]

7 minutes ago, Tango Foxtrot said:

Pass Privileges are not to be used for business.  Pleasure only.  How is commuting Pleasure

 Flight crew are not the only commuters.  Others do it to. 

 Commuters should have a different agreement.   A reasonable price for a positive space ticket. 

 Flight crews should have travel time included in their duty day. 

 The airline can sell off unsold tickets for nearly free to people that don't even work for them.  Why not to commuters to get to work,  relatively stress free

 

 

Just a sec. Boestar says no C1's for pilots. That is completely at odds with my understanding from ETS.

TF.....sorry. No way to include commuting time in duty day. Where one lives is their choice. It may be based on many factors including economics but the employer doesn't dictate where you live; only availability for work.

Delta pilots had a commuter positive space arrangement for awhile but that ended last year.

There are a LOT of cabin crew commuters coming from Asia and Europe. Many bid for back to back to get required hours. They manage. Not fun but.....

Getting to/from YUL / YYZ is a major stress generator but....again, it's a matter of choice.

[conehead]

27 minutes ago, UpperDeck said:

Just a sec. Boestar says no C1's for pilots. That is completely at odds with my understanding from ETS.

No, you misunderstood. Boestar is Maintenance. He said "we don't get C1s", meaning Maintenance doesn't get them.

I think that's what he meant anyway.

[Turbofan]

6 hours ago, UpperDeck said:

Pretty basic??!! Lol

"You" are not bottom of the list "as a commuter". As a con, you are boarding the aircraft based upon a priority list which is structured first on type of pass and second on seniority.

If you're on a C2 and I'm a C1.....I'm going ahead of you.....and vice versa.

As you say.....pretty basic. And non-preferential.

 

Lol,

Yes I am well aware of how pass priorities work.  They create special status that negates longevity.  I was never a supporter of B1’s for this very reason.  But I guess I need to be a realist and accept that the cat is out of the bag.

That means it’s a good thing pass travel priority is now negotiable. And clearly everyone needs to defend their own. Maintenance should take note as well.

Too bad really

[Turbofan]

On 7/27/2023 at 9:25 AM, boestar said:

Yeah we don't get C1s we have to use C2s 

Thanks for the information boestar. I didn’t know that.

So clearly the travel benefit is all over the place.

Do I have this correct?  If so what a mess.

ALPA gets 12 C1 and unlimited C2

CUPE gets 12 C1 and unlimited C2 ( corrected)

IAMAW gets no C1 and unlimited C2

CAW gets 12 C1 and unlimited C2

Retires get 6 C1 and unlimited C2

Personally I think the answer is everyone unlimited C1.  But clearly the company has enjoyed using pass travel as a negotiating tactic and may continue to do so into the future.  They seem to like us competing with each other. The pass travel benefit getting traded at the table for a discount.

 

[conehead]

10 minutes ago, Turbofan said:

 They seem to like us competing with each other. 

 

Shocking!

[UpperDeck]

44 minutes ago, Turbofan said:

Thanks for the information boestar. I didn’t know that.

So clearly the travel benefit is all over the place.

Do I have this correct?  If so what a mess.

ALPA gets 12 C1 and unlimited C2

CUPE gets unlimited C1

IAMAW gets no C1 and unlimited C2

CAW gets 12 C1 and unlimited C2

Retires get 6 C1 and unlimited C2

Personally I think the answer is everyone unlimited C1 like CUPE.  But clearly the company has enjoyed using pass travel as a negotiating tactic and may continue to do so into the future.  They seem to like us competing with each other. The pass travel benefit getting traded at the table for a discount.

 

No, no TF. Sheesh! One thing for sure. The compartmentalization approach of AC has contributed to a lot of unnecessary resentment.

CUPE does NOT get unlimited C1's. ACPA/ALPA members get the same number of C1's and both groups get unlimited C2's.

Some accumulated C1's in the "old" system by working Xmas etc. Those unused rolled over. Under the new system, the annual allotment does not accumulate; use them or lose them.

Many agree.....can these various categories and have a universal pass system based on seniority boarding from front to back.

BUT....always a but....."we" grew up with this type of system when MOST of the time, you could get on your desired flight regardless of seniority. Now, there are so many cons, the ONLY way a "junior" gets on is with a "seniority bypass".

And business class? Hah! Bonne chance!

 

 

[Turbofan]

4 hours ago, UpperDeck said:

 Now, there are so many cons, the ONLY way a "junior" gets on is with a "seniority bypass”

 

 

Exactly. So without a seniority bypass junior commuters have a heck of a time getting to work.  Longevity doesn't solve the issue because you have to commute C2 most of the time.  So the issue is never getting better. But pilots, FA’s, AME’s and ground staff can’t afford to live in YVR and YYZ either.  Company response?  Not my problem. Hence the anger.  

This isn’t just a pilot issue.  It’s a younger demographic issue. 

ALPA is now in negotiations. The majority of the bottom half of the Pilot seniority list now commute.  50% of the pilot seniority list has been hired in the last 10 years.  The demise of ACPA.  The change to ALPA.  The complete leadership change over.  All this demographic. This whole thread started about the lack of upgrading pilots to Captain status.  The reason is the lack of quality of life and how the housing crisis is playing a significant role. As much as they may like too, the company wont be permitted by this demographic to ignore the housing crisis.  They either double wages or work with their employees to get to work.  

At least for pilots.  The next generation has control. I’m nor sure the status of the other unions

ALPA is now in negotiations and QOL and commuting will become one of many focal points.  I’m expecting these negotiations to be exceptionally difficult as the boomer AC management struggles with the next generations demands.  The boomer management has done itself no favours so far by looking down on the new leadership and it’s direction.

But these quality of life improvements are required if Air Canada is to successfully deal with the lack of pilots willing to go junior left seat.  
 

I mean chair.  And yes lots of younger people use the word chair rather than seat.  The author isn’t that out to lunch.

 

[UpperDeck]

Last comment. " Phew!"; said the crowd.

I think Wolfie referenced this but it seems to me to be a very reasonable approach.

It is inherently unfair for Pilot A to move to the left seat and endure the hardship of a junior bidder while Pilot B remains an FO accruing seniority and enjoying an increasingly improved QoL if Pilot B can change seats and use his seniority to bid for better flying than Pilot A.

I agree with the suggestion that there should be a Captain's seniority list. One gets that number when assuming command and everyone moving from right to left seat thereafter is below in seniority for the purpose of position.

There is no downside for the company or the pilots but there is an incentive to move to the left seat as soon as you are able to do so.

You have a sub-list for equipment; again incentivization to move "up" ( if you want) when you can.

Forgive me if this is a basterdization of ideas previously floated.

What the hell do I know....I'm not a pilot!!

[Turbofan]

Yeah no.  Completely absent pilot culture.  The suggestion does nothing to address the underlying quality of life issues. Rather it uses a career threatening stick to force pilots into a quality of life situation they do not want.

Besides it is not your or my prerogative to decide for the next generation.  That’s called Boomersplaining.  It’s a thing can you believe it!

They get to decide for themselves.  Their message is they aren’t asking.

I am just a boomer myself, trying to shed light on the background noise behind why the article that started this thread exists.