Pass Privileges...

[Seeker]

As an outside observer and frequent user of your service, it's comforting to know that you don't have any real problems to solve. Seriously though, do you know how petty you look when you're fighting over benefits that folks in the real world (myself included) can only dream about having? Most normal employees would be grateful for a free car wash once in a while. You sure don't endear yourselves to your customers when they hear you squabble over who has the most right to free travel and/or a J-class seat. How about filling J with your customers and letting the free-loaders enjoy their free travel in Y. Don't forget to bring your credit card; your company doesn't accept cash on board.

Rich, I didn't see anyone fighting. As for dreaming about benefits; I have a sister-in-law that works for a large company who's medical/dental/wellness benefits are far more valuable to their family than the passes are to mine. The passes are nice I don't disagree but let's keep things in perspective. There are probably some single jetsetter employees who use their passes frequently but the vast majority don't and when you factor in the car-rental and drive from one Florida airport to another, along with a few extra hotel rooms, in order to be able to get a "free" flight most of the time you aren't really any further ahead of just buying a confirmed seat. In fact, I know of many co-workers that have given up on using passes altogether.

[chockalicious]

@Seeker

Differing views I guess. I understand that the senior guys may be po'd if the system changed now but by that reasoning there is never a reason to change anything.

[Kip Powick]

Went to FL on vac two weeks ago. Didn't even bother with passes as flights are all hammered. It's primarily a commuter benefit to my mind because for my one to two vacations a year it isn't realistic to entertain burning a day (or two, or three) with my family at the airport hoping to get a "free" flight. Depends on the destination of course but FL, forget i

Ditto......Going on a cruise in January......booked full fare tickets to Fort Lauderdale on AC...not even thinking of using a Pass, and the same for coming home ...except I booked a full fare tickets on WS from Fort Meyers.(visiting friends in Fort Meyers)

[acsidestick]

Rich, Come on,

This is the AIRLINE EMPLOYEE FORUM, where frequently we discuss rock bands, Dog breeds, and celestial events as well as Tolstoy and many other subjects that have nothing to do with shiny metal. If the public comes on here to read, we welcome them, but this is a place to discuss Kudos and cringes in OUR industry.

As a frequent freeloader, I spend between $350-$500 dollars a month paying for those free passes. It is my choice. I am required to use after tax dollars to pay for it, and am not allowed in anyway to claim it against taxes. My employer does not reimburse me, nor do I acquire points. I can't take my family on trips with the millions of points I rack up. In fact, with our LF so high, I rarely take my family anywhere without purchasing actual tickets.

As far as where i sit on an airplane, why shouldn't, after all customer and upgrades are completed, we be able to use an unfilled seat that my Employer is sending across the country whether or not it's empty or full? To imply we only deserve the worst seat left for our efforts is a bit condescending.

You say most employees would be happy with a Car Wash.

I don't know what crappy jobs you've done in the world, but A&W in YYC will pay University tuition if you stay long enough, so will McDonalds. I'm almost the only person on my block not driving a company automobile. My buddy with an Oil Company travels several times a year and has a clause allowing his wife to come along on three of them in first class. She tours while he works three all expense paid vacations a year (Kuala Lumpur, Bogota, and Moscow this year) Another friend is able to write off any of the three rounds of golf he plays a week during business hours. Yet another friend who is the Chief of Staff at a major hospital gets his very own non-scramble parking stall with his name on it. FWIW, nurses and janitors alike complain that he gets that perk.

Though each of those perks may be taxable benefits, they are not charged for it. In some cases, the employer adds the amount of income required to cover the benefit tax.

Rich, we're happy to have you along and know you are required to travel frequently. How do you afford the frequent travel? Do you write it off, does your employer pay a benefit, or reimburse you in some way. Do they compensate you in income, or if on a contract, is a yearly travel amount included. When you travel do you acquire points, and do you use those for upgrades or family travel. Or are you one of the extremely rare frequent flying passengers paying for their own tickets with non reimbursable in any way after tax dollars?

There are many types of "freeloaders". If a Company is paying for your tickets, does this not mean your a "freeloader" as well.

[moeman]

@Seeker

Differing views I guess. I understand that the senior guys may be po'd if the system changed now but by that reasoning there is never a reason to change anything.

How would you respond if it was suggested that WS change their system so that DOH was the only measuring stick, versus what you do now? I don't suspect it would be well received.

[Seeker]

@Seeker

Differing views I guess. I understand that the senior guys may be po'd if the system changed now but by that reasoning there is never a reason to change anything.

You seem to think the Westjet system is better - that hasn't been decided. Anyway, what ever system is chosen is pretty much it because you can't change after some have become invested in it. As moeman asks; what if Westjet suddenly changed to a seniority based system - would cause lots of resentment I'm sure.

[acsidestick]

Chock,

Without going too deep into it. I have many WJ friends and can say straight up it is not nearly the standby system it could be. With the huge numbers of commuters just added with the YYZ and YVR bases, it's unpleasant at best. In a seniority system, I can plan on landing an aircraft and getting on my flight home 15-30 minutes later. With the first come, first serve, it doesn't work so well.

And not to rock this boat too much, but you don't think Executives stand in line waiting for an economy seat right? They get free Positive Space, Positive First class on their competitors, and frequently are seen there sipping Chianti.

[chockalicious]

Again, differing perspectives. I think the WS system is better but your mileage may vary.

I think tying pass benefits to seniority is not the best system. As for the question of tying WS flying benefits to seniority there would probably be some upset but some would like it.

Again, from my perspective I think WS has done a lot of good things in not tying things to seniority, scheduling for example. I have always heard that one of the things that crews like is the opportunity to not wait 10 years to have Christmas off to spend with their family.

I don't get bent out of shape about executives having the guaranteed space and other perks. It comes with success even if sometimes it is not deserved.

[boestar]

Perks are perks. Executives in most companies get them. Airline executives get pos travel perks. I have no issue with that at all. Mainly because that POS space is reflected in the load on the aircraft when I am booking my STBY. To me it is just another passenger. Whether they "Deserve" it will always be up for debate but it is a perk none the less.

Seniority is the only "Fair" way to dish out the Standbys becasue, as was mentioned above, longevity gets benefits. More vacation, better position on the standby list etc. even a Gold watch at some point. Do you not think that someone putting up with this industry for 20+ years deserves a little bit above the newb?

One must pay their dues to reach the top.

[acsidestick]

Chock,I need to step back here a moment as I'm starting to chase my own tail, and I'm losing the plot.

I believe you have said all employees equal, and I believe you also have said employees should have different levels of perks.

If you feel that the CEO, or the BoD, or the High Level Managers, or the Low Level managers, or the Secretaries to those Low Level Managers, or in particular, the Director of Hot Rock Therapy and Zen music deserve a different priority, then your own argument is moot.

Either every employee is equal, or they are not. If they are not, then a determination of what they are worth based on what they are really worth to the Corp needs to be made. WJ made 21 pilots millionaires, and many more have done quite well, how did that work

out for the ramp agents? Bedoe and Morgan had no problems establishing that some are more equal than others.

[chockalicious]

I said I have no problems with the executive perk, other than that all employees equal, not sure how some pilots making out on the stocks is relevant to conversation.

[Johnny]

I haven't used a pass in well over a decade. Given today's load factors, verse my lack of a sense of humour for hanging around Airports, it just isn't worth it.

You can't compare WJ to AC; desirable destinations, volume of employees, the list goes on.

[Maverick]

Just curious why you guys wouldn't want priority by first to check in is the first on priority list for all employees? It seems fair to me but I may be missing something.

I rarely travel standby anymore but time of check-in favours younger (junior?) employees, generally speaking. Why should I (for example, with 15+ years of service have to drag my family to airport 3 hours prior so I have a shot at a tight flight?

The 20 something's that travel every week have the time to waste at airports.

Seniority should count for something shouldn't it?

[chockalicious]

@Mav. I was basically in the same boat where it got to the point that my wife and one of the kids were the only ones who ever really flew stand-by (and that was to visit family.

I think that seniority based systems go against by egalitarian ideas on meritocracy. I know there are times that it may be the only system that makes sense but I just don't see it here. Most of the examples seem to come down to "why should a newb get on before me with my XX years of service?" and I get that.

However a 10 year business analyst vs an 11 year supply chain buyer? Really, that 1 year should give them priority?

I think too that using seniority to make the decisions all the time results in an entrenched mentality that breeds complacency.

[popcan]

I rarely travel standby anymore but time of check-in favours younger (junior?) employees, generally speaking. Why should I (for example, with 15+ years of service have to drag my family to airport 3 hours prior so I have a shot at a tight flight?

The 20 something's that travel every week have the time to waste at airports.

Seniority should count for something shouldn't it?

Exactly...plus what if you have been standing by all day, transferred from one flight to the next and don' t get on because somebody checked in for that flight 3 hrs ago whereas you were only transferred to the flight 30 min ago.

[CanadaEH]

Exactly...plus what if you have been standing by all day, transferred from one flight to the next and don' t get on because somebody checked in for that flight 3 hrs ago whereas you were only transferred to the flight 30 min ago.

.....If you got bumped from one flight you rollover to the next, with higher priority than those already listed as standby (current WS process).

And Mav, how does a process that favours time of check-in (online) favour younger or junior employees? Your slow ass can't get on a computer? DOH would benefit me and my family and I would love to be able to have priority based on DOH but I like the fact our system is fair. That's how I've known it from Day 1 and that's how I think it should stay. FWIW, I've flown standby once in 3.5 years. I find myself buying 50% off confirmed off for my vacations. I don't want the hassle of standby with kids........ but I'll be trying it in January for the first time in almost 4 years!!!

[j.k.]

I see no problem with tiered priorities for different employee groups.

As was mentioned earlier, one employee can be hired at 18 years old with a minimal skill set or education, is it fair they forever trump an employee who spends a decade or more acquiring the capabilities required to be employed by the carrier in a position and thus doesn't get hired until their well into their career?

That said, pass travel is a fading benefit no matter your priority short of POS, with record load factors the stress and hassle is often not worth it.

[CAT3DUAL]

I can not remember the last time I used a pass, flights are full domestically and internationally. I've seen to many family vacations ruined by pass travel worries, buy the tickets you cheapskates. When the dollar was good, I crossed over to BUF, now that the dollar isn't, I fly on best available in Canada. As AC employees we get discounts on Rouge, 10 to 15 percent off at the very least, on confirmed seats. PEACE OF MIND, has a value.

[chikita]

I started in 1970. There is an inside how was passes then... First improvement came in 1972. Two passes for a year after full one year service...

All employees equal, All priority based on DOH.

I apologize for quality of the picture but even if it is not in HD you still can see what we had then.

How ad for cigarettes used to say: "You have com a long way baby, Somtessa Slim"....

Let's enjoy and be happy what we have now...

Salut

[popcan]

I see no problem with tiered priorities for different employee groups.

As was mentioned earlier, one employee can be hired at 18 years old with a minimal skill set or education, is it fair they forever trump an employee who spends a decade or more acquiring the capabilities required to be employed by the carrier in a position and thus doesn't get hired until their well into their career?

That said, pass travel is a fading benefit no matter your priority short of POS, with record load factors the stress and hassle is often not worth it.

IMHO, yes it's fair that someone at hired at age 18, years ago, can trump some "new hire" who has spent years "acquiring the capabilities...". It's called paying your dues. Just because you are chucking bags, servicing lavs, turning wrenches, or checking in passengers does not make you a lesser person. There are many highly intelligent (both intellectually and/or mechanically) people working at an airline. To single out one group of employees as "special" is just asking for trouble.

[DEFCON]

I think everyone has valid points to make with respect to one travel pass priority system, or another, which is why I favour the CA approach.

[moeman]

If negotiated, I think it would just get silly with every group using a me too clause to match whoever has the best deal.

If In-Flight were to reward FAs with a better pass priority than pilots got, simply for agreeing to a 10 year contract, would the pilot group be upset? Then what if Sales gets an even better deal, are the two groups peeved, with the last guy in line chomping at the bit for the best deal to be had? I can't see how this could end well.

[Seeker]

If negotiated, I think it would just get silly with every group using a me too clause to match whoever has the best deal.

If In-Flight were to reward FAs with a better pass priority than pilots got, simply for agreeing to a 10 year contract, would the pilot group be upset? Then what if Sales gets an even better deal, are the two groups peeved, with the last guy in line chomping at the bit for the best deal to be had? I can't see how this could end well.

The 10 year agreement that the pilots are about to ratify (apparently) will do more to secure the FA jobs than anything their own union would have been able to achieve and without precedent anywhere in the history of aviation. Reducing that to, "simply for agreeing to a 10 year contract" is a little dismissive for what it actually entails.

[DEFCON]

I understand Moeman; every approach does have its problems.

[moeman]

@seeker, I agree. Apologies. I shouldn't have sounded so dismissive. You guys are the only ones with scope and the ability to save our jobs at mainline as a side effect of your agreement. I won't go so far as to thank you for that as your union really shouldn't, and most likely doesn't, care about mine and acts for it's own benefit. We benefit from that, but it isn't a consideration when you negotiate so using it to suggest we should be thankful doesn't sit well with me.

You seem to believe that you deserve these passes for agreeing to a 10 year deal. I don't think it's a good idea but who cares. It's done and we'll have to wait and see what kind of fallout comes from it.