boestar Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 speculation from witness report.......Puff of smoke: APU being ripped off the aircraft with the rest of the tail. short lived. Cartweel: not likley due the the rest of the plane largely intact. more likley a poor description of it spinning like a curling stone.Apparently all pax and crew ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 sheesh. Train Derailment in Quebec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 news conference coverage on CTV at 5:30 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrlupin Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 what engines are on asiana aircraft?PW4090 as reported in previous post... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hollywud Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 If I recall, the BA crash was a result of a fuel freeze situation. I flew into LGW from HKG that same day and can contest that it was 'some cold' over Russia - several hours at -70C. I doubt that this crash was a result of frozen fuel given the time of year. Just my thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Even when surface temps are high the temp at altitude can be excessively cold. However that seemed to be an issue with RR engines not Pratts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AAS Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Thanks for doing the ATC link. I couldn't get it to work. Where are the recorders on a B777? Forward of the pressure bulkhead or aft of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 now reporting 2 dead and 60 injured out of 291 on board. waiting for the press conference to begin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 Important factor. Glide slope u/s. Visual approaches on 28L.(4 light PAPIs 2.85 left side)NOTAM SFO 06/005 NAV ILS 28L GP OTS WEF 1306011400-1308222359 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.O. Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 But apparently they did have PAPIs on at the time. The investigation into BA038 determined that the icing build-up issue was unique to the Trent's fuel/oil heat exchanger so if this accident is the result of a power loss, there will be new ground for the NTSB to explore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 I think the temps on the SEL > SFO route would be much warmer than the Siberian route BA038 took, especially this time of year. I think the chances of a similar event with different engine manufacturers and all the cautions that came out regarding fuel temp management, are extremely rare and I would be looking elsewhere for possible cause.I would be looking at the stability of the approach, what was programmed in the FMCs, what the ND was displaying (for the usual distance-vs-height equation), who was flying, (perhaps not for a NA carrier but here I think that is a fair question) and what the communications were like between the two up front as well as the third (and/or fourth). If true I think that the GS was out of service is very siginifcant and I would examine how Asiana teaches and checks use of VASI / PAPI etc.The recorders will be in fine shape and the data will be available until the point of impact where the tail (and the recorders!) separated.DonPS - live video of the NTSB briefing being set up... http://www.courier-journal.com/interactive/article/20130706/NEWS/130706010/Live-Video-Crews-scene-plane-crash-coming-up-NTSB-briefing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted July 6, 2013 Share Posted July 6, 2013 http://aeronav.faa.gov/content/aeronav/acfstatus/Presentations/13-01_AAUP_Approach_Status.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 The cause of this accident should be an easier task for investigators due to the flight crew surviving, voice/data recorder access and probably lots of video evidence too. But can anyone tell me what the Asiana pilot was saying to SFO tower other than his call sign? As Rich mentioned with CPL students all logging the same flights, English language levels are also handed out far below an acceptable standard. Just my opinion......I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 blues - in this case I would rely heavily on the data and only take crew comments into account where there may be this or that small discrepancy.Rich - thanks for the confirmation on the data points - it makes sense - it's summer, and the jet is north, the trop is high and the air is warm from the surface and the lapse rate, even if "standard", has a higher temp from which to drop. This isn't a fuel-temp matter. I think this is a "visual approach" matter.Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.O. Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 I've heard more than my share of concerns about a lack of basic flying skills in the emerging markets of our industry. If MPL and other similar cadet programs are to have any chance of providing the level of safety that travellers demand, it must address this issue in a meaningful way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.O. Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Apparently the earlier info was incorrect - the PAPIs are NOTAMed off on 28L Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon The Loon Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Did anyone else notice the wing trailing edges? Could the flaps have been sheared off as they don't seem easily visible? The leading edge devices certainly look deployed. Still an amazing testament that these modern airliners are built better and tougher than those of the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JL Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 With the ILS out, I am assuming the 777 could do an LPV on the GPS/RNAV for 28L.... http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1307/00375R28L.PDF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Seriously? You guys are saying that they could have muffed an approach on a day like today?What transport category pilot would need an ILS in CAVU conditions with an 8 knot wind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rozar s'macco Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Seriously? You guys are saying that they could have muffed an approach on a day like today?What transport category pilot would need an ILS in CAVU conditions with an 8 knot wind?One who uses autoland as a normal op, even in VMC? One whose employer restricts or discourages hand flying? One from a region with a known punitive safety culture? One from a paternalistic, highly regimented cultural upbringing? Fact is, many airline pilots today can't "fly". Procedures prohibit it (RNAV1 SID/STARS, RVSM), airlines discourage it, training is minimal, opportunities for "practice" are nil, and you get fired if you fuk up (no union). For many pilots the question might be why EVER do a hand-flown visual, voluntarily? Until you're going in to SFO and that is the only option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rozar s'macco Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 I fly to SFO a lot. FMS Bridge Visual is the normal approach, which permits simultaneous close parallel approaches and therefore maximizes the arrival rate. The approach aids have been NOTAMed out in various configurations for a little while now when weather permits. I prefer to manually fly the approach (AP/ATHR off) in that scenario because I find using automation to be quite a bit more work and difficult to do smoothly on a visual. Then again I flew airplanes with my hands and feet for thousands of hours before ever stepping foot in an airliner, we tell each other if something looks wrong, and I know I won't be fired if I fuk up (to a point), so it is a natural choice for me and my colleagues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 From my network of friends.....it was a training flight. Upgrade Captain flying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 With the ILS out, I am assuming the 777 could do an LPV on the GPS/RNAV for 28L.... http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1307/00375R28L.PDFAbsolutely. A VNAV approach using the LOC. if set up and flown properly, you don't even know a glide slope is u/s. However, depending on your airlines route structure, you might only practice them in the simulator. Having gone through a VNAV approach approval process with TC on both 757 and 767 as well as flight crew instruction, its really not a big deal but there are some timely MCP (Mode Control Panel) selections as you descend. If you happen to miss one of these or late with the selection, you can end up higher than desired in a hurry. That's when it can get ugly and generally the best course of action is a go around, especially in a large aircraft like a 777. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trader Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 razor--exactly!!!Been to SFO a lot on the 777 and I find that the visual app. throws a lot of foreign crews off balance. Often they get high and with the vectoring if they are not PREPARED to go visual things go awry pretty quickly (From the sounds of the ATC tape it was a typical busy day).I brief this myself into SFO and find that unless you are proactive and sometimes agressive early in the approach it is easy to end up high. Combine this with ATC that keep aircraft tight (the visual lets them up the landing rate) and the NEED for active management by the pilot is the norm.Of all the US airports/approaches I find SFO can be the most challenging.Now throw in a crew that has not been there (or not been often) plus the other factors mentioned........................ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 From my network of friends.....it was a training flight. Upgrade Captain flying.he failed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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