Westjet Lobbies Against Ac Pension Extension

[runaway]

Yeah. I wasn't going to touch that one.

Sorry.....thought this was molding into a "truth or dare" thread.....

[airt]

It is what it is and it's dealt with as a cost of doing business but If AC started lobbying for Westjet to provide all services to the public in both official languages wherever they fly how do you think Westjet would deal needing to hire or train a several hundred (thousand?) bilingual employees to be stationed around their network 24/7/365 and on board all aircraft?

At this years AGM , a shareholder stood up and asked Gregg why we didn't have more bilingual flight attendants. His answer was that he had ordered that all flight attendants being hired now were required to be able to speak french. I would guess that it is being done as a business decision rather than any pressure from the Fed's.

It's a start , but nowhere near as onerous as the ACPPA.

[jkavafian]

Still can't figure out why WJ is immune to the Official Langages Act as far as airlines are concerned....which applies to AC only!

I have always encountered French speaking people when flying or dealing with WestJet. When I fly I use French and English interchangeably on both AC and WestJet and every time I get a positive response. Even at WestJet call centres. Language has never been an issue. In fact, I remember only one event on AC many years ago when asking for Diet Coke in French that the FA told me unprovoked she did not speak French and went on a lengthy monologue explaining to me that she did not have to speak French so long as there was at least one person on the flight who did.

One time while on call with a WestJet agent to make changes to a flight reservation we were both alternating between English and French and having a pleasant time when I blurted a sentence in Japanese and to my surprise she responded in flawless Japanese too.

I think there is no need for a language law for airlines but no politician will want to touch ACPPA. It's there and it will be there. Live with it and move on.

[runaway]

I have always encountered French speaking people when flying or dealing with WestJet. When I fly I use French and English interchangeably on both AC and WestJet and every time I get a positive response. Even at WestJet call centres. Language has never been an issue. In fact, I remember only one event on AC many years ago when asking for Diet Coke in French that the FA told me unprovoked she did not speak French and went on a lengthy monologue explaining to me that she did not have to speak French so long as there was at least one person on the flight who did.

One time while on call with a WestJet agent to make changes to a flight reservation we were both alternating between English and French and having a pleasant time when I blurted a sentence in Japanese and to my surprise she responded in flawless Japanese too.

I think there is no need for a language law for airlines but no politician will want to touch ACPPA. It's there and it will be there. Live with it and move on.

But JK,

WJ is not required by Federal law to be bilingual. There's a lot more to the Languages Act then a few bilingual agents here and there. And a lot more costs involved too. Your point is moot!

[jkavafian]

But JK,

WJ is not required by Federal law to be bilingual. There's a lot more to the Languages Act then a few bilingual agents here and there. And a lot more costs involved too. Your point is moot!

I know that. I was just lightening the mood in the spirit of the Holidays.

Maybe I was not clear. I think ACPPA should be scrapped but no politician will touch it.

[runaway]

I think ACPPA should be scrapped but no politician will touch it.

Agree....100% !

[dagger]

Agree....100% !

Indeed, that's why Calin is vacating it step by step, unofficially of course. The maintenance base section has been vacated - and yes, thank Robert Milton for that, too - and AC is shifting some jobs from Montreal to the new SOC in YYZ. The new COO is based in Toronto. You can bet that over the span of a decade, YUL HQ will look more and more like the Bank of Montreal HQ in Montreal.

[Maverick]

It is what it is and it's dealt with as a cost of doing business but If AC started lobbying for Westjet to provide all services to the public in both official languages wherever they fly how do you think Westjet would deal needing to hire or train a several hundred (thousand?) bilingual employees to be stationed around their network 24/7/365 and on board all aircraft?

I don't think that would be the hit to WestJet that you might think. WJ has been hiring nothing but bilingual flight attendants for quite a long time now. Operationally the Quebec flights will almost always have French flight attendant(s).

The bottom line is providing unilingual services is just bad business. I realize that AC is mandated to but operationally there's likely little difference between the two carriers.

It's a good rallying cry though.

[FA@AC]

I realize that AC is mandated to but operationally there's likely little difference between the two carriers.

I have flown Westjet just once.

The aircraft for our flight arrived, and no staff at the gate were able to assist a disembarking passenger in French. I'm pretty sure that none of the FAs on our fight spoke French either At any rate, all French language announcements were played from a pre-recorded thing (minus the stupid jokes, thank heavens).

The dude on the PA thought he belonged at the chuckle hut. To my amazement, he ended the English language demo announcement with this: "And we will now repeat these safety instructions in French. Deedilly-dee-ooo-zummdee-dum......<pause for effect>.....oops, just kidding folks!". Har har.

Big difference operationally, Maverick.

[dagger]

I don't think that would be the hit to WestJet that you might think. WJ has been hiring nothing but bilingual flight attendants for quite a long time now. Operationally the Quebec flights will almost always have French flight attendant(s).

The bottom line is providing unilingual services is just bad business. I realize that AC is mandated to but operationally there's likely little difference between the two carriers.

It's a good rallying cry though.

First off, Westjet continues to cycle some unilingual crews through to Ottawa, Moncton and Quebec destinations. I know this for a fact. It almost certainly doesn't happen as often as it used to, but it does happen. Secondly, what Air Canada is subjected to is not only bilingualism in customer contact positions where, indeed, the two carriers are not that far apart, but also in terms of internal language use as well as the mandatory availability of translated material even where numbers, arguably, do not warrant. In terms of a large maintenance manual - be it hard copy or digital - that's a lot of costly technical translation, and it requires frequent updating, so it's not a one-time investment. That's where the real cost of bilingualism hits the airline.

[Maverick]

Interesting, I've never heard that about aircraft maintenance manuals. I've work on them all, Boeing, Lockheed, Douglas. Bombardier, ATR, Grumman etc. Other than Airbus which had some obvious French-English translation issues, they've all been written first in English. I would not want to be the department that had to translate a technical manual into a different language, legalities aside it would be a nightmare. If the ACPPA mandated that then someone at AC should have them take all the liability for it or tell them to pound sound.

FA@AC, your experience sounds like WJ from a few years ago, I fly a lot and do take note of stuff like that. Don't think for a second that the possibility of a unilingual francophone getting off an aircraft in the west on AC and not being able to be served en Francais. I guarantee it will and does happen to this day.

[runaway]

Interesting, I've never heard that about aircraft maintenance manuals. I

You've just demonstrated your ignorance of the Official Languages Act. It's not about a few bilingual agents or f/a s. Everything has to be in two languages....

It's a not "rallying cry".....it's a cost disadvantage. A big one!

[Kip Powick]

You've just demonstrated your ignorance of the Official Languages Act. It's not about a few bilingual agents or f/a s. Everything has to be in two languages....

It's a not "rallying cry".....it's a cost disadvantage. A big one!

I think what you mean is..

"I don't think you are fully aware of the Official Language Act as it applies to AC through the strings that hold AC to the ACPPA".............."demonstrated your ignorance " is kinda harsh...........seeing the object of your derision is situated out on the "wet-coast"

[chockalicious]

Has anyone actually quantified how much the ACPA costs AC each year? I hear how onerous it is but have never heard a cost associated.

Language laws are a relic and should be abolished.

[FA@AC]

FA@AC, your experience sounds like WJ from a few years ago

It was July of this year.

[Maverick]

You've just demonstrated your ignorance of the Official Languages Act. It's not about a few bilingual agents or f/a s. Everything has to be in two languages....

It's a not "rallying cry".....it's a cost disadvantage. A big one!

Lighten up, I've been doing maintenance in Canada for 25 years. I find it very hard to believe that they would translate something as critical as aircraft maintenance manuals to french if they weren't published that way from the manufacturer. I spent some time in France and never once saw a French language manual. I call Bullsh!t but stand to be corrected.

Robert, Conehead, Mitch?

[Fido]

Those manuals in French are there but they gather mostly dust and not greasy fingerprints.

[inchman]

It's not "only" the manuals. (Fortunately, AOM's do not have to be translated, although there was a lot of gnashing of teeth over that one). Translation to French impacts the way, and how quickly, managers can communicate with their employees. Every memo has to go through translation services and be posted in both French and English simultaneously. And translation is M-F 9-5 and it often takes hours, if not 24, to get a document translated. That changes the whole management/employee relationship.

One of the most ludicrous recent examples of this was a copy of an original English-only legal document from an Arbitrator that was issued to the Flight Attendants... one clean, and the second version exactly the same copy of the document, except with a French notation to the effect that the document was not available in French. This was issued in the 5000+ pairing packages.

I have no problem with providing French services and wish I could speak it better ..Every time I try, the person I'm talking to responds in English . But it goes too far if any language is legislated to the point that a fully bilingual passenger can sue the airline's contracted capacity provider for not being able to respond to a request for a Seven Up.

It is clear to me that Westjet is starting to run out of ideas for profit and growth generation or feels threatened by some of the changes at AC and now feels the need to add more handcuffs to the competition.

[conehead]

Lighten up, I've been doing maintenance in Canada for 25 years. I find it very hard to believe that they would translate something as critical as aircraft maintenance manuals to french if they weren't published that way from the manufacturer. I spent some time in France and never once saw a French language manual. I call Bullsh!t but stand to be corrected.

Robert, Conehead, Mitch?

The last time I saw maintenance manuals written in French was when I was working on Canadian military aircraft. I don't think anyone actually used them, the Frankophone guys seemed to prefer using the English language ones.

[moeman]

We have yet to receive a copy of our new collective agreement as it can't be issued until the lawyers translate every clause into French.

[boestar]

Being that this is part of my job function I can assure that the Manufacturer Maintenance Manuals are NOT translated into french. Only internally produced documents need undergo translation if they are of a NON_TECHNICAL nature.

English is the international language of aviation and all manuals are produced as such for the international market.

Note here: Bombardier used to produce their internal build documents in English only and were required to produce them in French at the Quebec plants. Most of the guys on the floor could not understand them in french. French does not lend itself to technical writing very well.

[moeman]

I suspect that all it would take is one AME to complain about that and we'd have to translate them all.

[Maverick]

I suspect that all it would take is one AME to complain about that and we'd have to translate them all.

I doubt it very much. The company would be absolutely crazy to accept the liability in doing that. This isn't a F/A manual, this is a very critical, very complicated set of instructions that have the potential for millions of dollars in liability if done incorrectly. I believe the manufacturer would have to buy off on it as well, why would/should they? Aviation is done in English, period.

I stand by my original assertion that it's still a good rallying cry.

[DEFCON]

How much has / does WJ spend on lawyers, fines and awards defending against allegations of language abuse? From AC's perspective, the cost of defending against this unique liability consequent to the constraints of the greater ACPPA are almost completely unpredictable and because of the human complexities involved, guaranteed to be perpetually re-occurring.

The cost of this defensive activity is certainly large and the liability it attracts does have to be included in seat-mile costing considerations. When the corporation is unable to pass this cost of doing business on to the guest, the money to cover has to come from somewhere, meaning; the employee wawcon & benefits packages necessarily become the flexible target.

It would therefore appear; WJ enjoys a commercial advantage of a particular kind and naturally seeks to preserve the competitive advantage? The same could be said of pensions.

[chockalicious]

Still waiting for someone to weigh in on what these outrageous costs due to the ACPPA are. I am wondering if it is a good strawman for the corporation and in reality they are mice nuts in the grand scheme of things. As Dagger noted, it looks like tenets of it are already being ignored.