AC/Jazz 7819

[blues deville]

My daughter was nearly bumped off AC 7819 (YYZ-YSB) tonight until someone finally saw her crying and gave up their seat. Apparently one of the oversold seats on the flight was for a Jazz dh.

My daughter was full fare and chose Jazz instead of driving herself for the holiday weekend. Since I paid for the ticket I am not happy with the fact that AC/JAzz somehow singled out my 22 year old as their oversold victim.

She is a nervous flyer and this was not the experience I was hoping she would have on our nation's carrier.

I just called AC to complain and advised I have to email the details to them for their review. Can't talk to anyone directly about the flight. The Res agent who gave me some details (in TPA for some reason) said the flight departed on time with one empty seat. So why did they have to upset my daughter with their problem.

Well done AC/Jazz.....another happy customer.

bd

[John S.]

As you know it is MAINLINE agents who work the counters and gates at YYZ. Jazz has little to do with your daughter's flight until the door is closed.

I hope you post the follow-up response(s).

John

PS How did the flight go after the door was closed?

[ChicoChico]

Might want to confirm all the facts before going off.

It is suspicious that they said after all was said and done there was an empty seat.

I don't know anything about this incident (other than what you related) but I do know that DH crews are the LAST people you want to leave behind since they may well strand a whole plane load at the next stop (again or maybe not if they are just on their way home.)

I know if I was on the scene and I was deadheading home on that particular flight AND I was aware that they were potentially going to leave someone behind I would have volunteered - never nice to see someone cry after all.

regards Chico

[vanishing point]

The DHing crew member would have likely offered to sit in the jump-seat had they known about your daughter. We don't leave people behind if we can avoid it.

[blues deville]

Might want to confirm all the facts before going off.

It is suspicious that they said after all was said and done there was an empty seat.

I don't know anything about this incident (other than what you related) but I do know that DH crews are the LAST people you want to leave behind since they may well strand a whole plane load at the next stop (again or maybe not if they are just on their way home.)

I know if I was on the scene and I was deadheading home on that particular flight AND I was aware that they were potentially going to leave someone behind I would have volunteered - never nice to see someone cry after all.

regards Chico

I don't want start a nasty exchange with anyone but would like to get some answers. Having spoken directly to my daughter I now have more details than AC could provide on the phone. I've got a pretty good handle on dh'ing. As soon as this situation occured, the pilot should have been moved to the JS with the operating crew's approval. Revenue passenger versus non-rev. That's easy. Problem solved and no one gets upset. Why does a full fare customer have to be inconvenienced because of an AC/Jazz crew scheduling issue? However, it did not quite happen like that....

She boarded the DH8 at YYZ. She took a photo and BBM'd it to me. Looks like a -100 series. An agent came on and removed a couple traveling together. They re-boarded and the agent asked my daughter to deplane with no explanation other than the flight was oversold. She was upset with this news as she had been at YYZ 4 hours before departure having left her Mississauga office after work. So I believe she would have been the first to checkin without a doubt. She was sent back to the gate area and told to wait. She called my wife who was out of town as well. I would have raised a Lahey $hitstorm but my daughter did not want to argue with the agent but then started to cry. This honour's York U grad has a long commute to her job and after the long wait in the terminal, the last thing she wanted to hear was this crap.

The AC agent told her there was nothing they could do about it. This is when the dh'ing pilot said he would give up his seat. I believe she said he was from PEI and had a photo of his kids in his hat. Maybe he will read this too. At about the same time, another male passenger got up to give his seat to her as well. He said he was in no hurry to get to YSB so she could have his place. They were offering a hotel room to the passenger left behind. My guess is the dh'ing pilot sat up front and the other guy took the hotel room. My daughter said the seat beside her to YSB was empty. So an upset customer for no reason. Another detail that should be mentioned. When she did check-in, she immediately called my wife to ask "what's up with Air Canada?" They were nasty right from the check-in counter. Nice. And people wonder why Westjet is doing so well.

Now this part you may not like to hear either...especially if you have an ALPA number at Jazz. She said the landing in YSB was really rough and for whatever reason the flightcrew decided to slam the nosewheel at touchdown. My daughter is a young, bright and world traveled person who has been flying since she was in diapers. Actually her first flight was on a DH8 flown by her father when she was only weeks old. I know first hand that you really have to work at screwing up a landing in a Dash 8. Her brother is also a pilot and has taken her flying on many x-country flights and once to YSB as well. His landings are the smoothest. The guy has skills. So she knows what a smooth landing feels like.

So there you go. My guess is some nasty AC gate agent decided to end her shift with a bang. My thanks to the young Jazz pilot who did the right thing so my kid got to stay on board and some guy is spending a night on AC's dime in Toronto for no reason.

Anyways she made it safely to YSB. She talked to her mother and is in good spirits.

I will be calling someone tomorrow and looking for explanations. Good luck to AC.

[blues deville]

PS How did the flight go after the door was closed?

Not great...but she made it there safely.

bd

[John S.]

. . . the landing in YSB was really rough and for whatever reason the flightcrew decided to slam the nosewheel at touchdown. . . .

That's the new SOP ever since a passenger managed to sleep through a CRJ landing in YVR a few months ago. (We have a few 320 guys riding jump telling us how!)

[blues deville]

That's the new SOP ever since a passenger managed to sleep through a CRJ landing in YVR a few months ago. (We have a few 320 guys riding jump telling us how!)

[sustainable]

14 years of commuting on -8's at least 3 times per week.

"I know first hand that you really have to work at screwing up a landing in a Dash 8."

Having never landed it but having sat in the jumpseat many times I kindly suggest that the impact, and yes that term was chosen intentionally, forces are considerably more noticeable the closer to the landing gear one is.

As experienced by this passenger, smooth landings in a -8 are notable in their infrequency but I believe that has more to do with aircraft geometry than pilot skill.

sus

[thor]

I don't want start a nasty exchange with anyone but would like to get some answers. Having spoken directly to my daughter I now have more details than AC could provide on the phone. I've got a pretty good handle on dh'ing. As soon as this situation occured, the pilot should have been moved to the JS with the operating crew's approval. Revenue passenger versus non-rev. That's easy. Problem solved and no one gets upset. Why does a full fare customer have to be inconvenienced because of an AC/Jazz crew scheduling issue? However, it did not quite happen like that....

She boarded the DH8 at YYZ. She took a photo and BBM'd it to me. Looks like a -100 series. An agent came on and removed a couple traveling together. They re-boarded and the agent asked my daughter to deplane with no explanation other than the flight was oversold. She was upset with this news as she had been at YYZ 4 hours before departure having left her Mississauga office after work. So I believe she would have been the first to checkin without a doubt. She was sent back to the gate area and told to wait. She called my wife who was out of town as well. I would have raised a Lahey $hitstorm but my daughter did not want to argue with the agent but then started to cry. This honour's York U grad has a long commute to her job and after the long wait in the terminal, the last thing she wanted to hear was this crap.

The AC agent told her there was nothing they could do about it. This is when the dh'ing pilot said he would give up his seat. I believe she said he was from PEI and had a photo of his kids in his hat. Maybe he will read this too. At about the same time, another male passenger got up to give his seat to her as well. He said he was in no hurry to get to YSB so she could have his place. They were offering a hotel room to the passenger left behind. My guess is the dh'ing pilot sat up front and the other guy took the hotel room. My daughter said the seat beside her to YSB was empty. So an upset customer for no reason. Another detail that should be mentioned. When she did check-in, she immediately called my wife to ask "what's up with Air Canada?" They were nasty right from the check-in counter. Nice. And people wonder why Westjet is doing so well.

Now this part you may not like to hear either...especially if you have an ALPA number at Jazz. She said the landing in YSB was really rough and for whatever reason the flightcrew decided to slam the nosewheel at touchdown. My daughter is a young, bright and world traveled person who has been flying since she was in diapers. Actually her first flight was on a DH8 flown by her father when she was only weeks old. I know first hand that you really have to work at screwing up a landing in a Dash 8. Her brother is also a pilot and has taken her flying on many x-country flights and once to YSB as well. His landings are the smoothest. The guy has skills. So she knows what a smooth landing feels like.

So there you go. My guess is some nasty AC gate agent decided to end her shift with a bang. My thanks to the young Jazz pilot who did the right thing so my kid got to stay on board and some guy is spending a night on AC's dime in Toronto for no reason.

Anyways she made it safely to YSB. She talked to her mother and is in good spirits.

I will be calling someone tomorrow and looking for explanations. Good luck to AC.

It's unfortunate that WestJet doesn't fly to YSB, however, WestJet doesn't over book, and that's not saying we haven't had over booking problems such as a sick F/A.

[Vsplat]

Blues, sorry to hear of your daughter's trouble. No parent likes to hear that sort of thing.

While it is understandable that you have an opinion on the matter, I don't think it's fair game to make the kind of assumptions you have about the motives and solutions available. It clearly doesn't help you or your daughter feel better and it paints a crew, probably doing their best, possibly at the end of a long day, in an unfair light.

For example, I don't know anyone who 'decides' to slam down a nosewheel. I've spent enough time in a Dash to say that the gear provides a very stiff touchdown more often than not. Nor is it 'problem solved' to simply take a deadheading crew member and stuff them in the flight deck. The Dash is infamous for W&B issues that take the jumpseat out of play. There are also a number of operational and equipment reasons (flight deck O2 level for one) that can shut down that seat.

All that said, the jumpseat is not intended for repositioning crews for a reason. The problem here was oversales, not jumpseat management. So whacking the gate agent and operating crew, frankly, is just adding insult to injury.

-Vs

[chris]

I work for Jazz. I also flew to YSB 3 days ago. The flights to YSB have been quite packed recently. A few days ago a flight destined to YSB had to return to the gate due to a mechanical issue with the airplane (flap motor problems), and this caused quite a backlog in passenger and baggage overflows.

As far as the hard landing is concerned... well its a Dash 8, trying to land a dash 8 smooth is nearly impossible. Most likely though, it was a brand new FO on line indoc. I used to fly the RJ and just switched to the Dash 8, I flew my first pairing 2 days ago. Im sure some passengers were wondering "what the hell is going on" after my first few landing as well.

[Homerun]

Westjet doesn't overbook but they also don't offer refundable tickets.

You say your daughter was on a full fare ticket so at least she had the option of having her money refunded if she decided not to travel. That is an option not available on Westjet.

[Johnny]

"Full Fare" ticket, doesn't mean much anymore. You are well advised (depending on the fare chosen) to pay for seat pre-selection.

Showing up at a gate, with a boarding pass that says "GTE" (gate) in the "Seat" window, means; you are part of the oversell.

It is a horrendous system; you have purchased a product (so you think?) When, and how, that product is delivered, is at the will of the supplier.

Flight oversells are nothing like they were, just a short time ago. On an Aircraft as small as a Dash 8, it would be negligible...if at all? With a large portion of tickets being sold via the Internet, using the cheapest available pricing. The "no show" factor has almost disappeared, as the Airline (via the Internet) already has your CC info.

As VS says, it is a kind gesture for the DH'ing Pilot to offer to ride the JS. However, you shouldn't have the expectation that this individual "must" do this.

We'd have the Airline putting the DH'er, from Vancouver to Beijing in the JS, to accommodate one more paying passenger.

...extreme example, I know.

I have never flown a Dash 8, but I have been in the back a million times. I could count on one hand, the smooth landings. The Airplane reminds me of trying to land a Shopping Cart.

[Spinnaker]

Over a 1000 hours in a Dash 8 and I never did get a smooth landing with that straight gear. That said, I have over 4000 hours in a 737 and I'm still working on that one too.

[thor]

Westjet doesn't overbook but they also don't offer refundable tickets.  

You say your daughter was on a full fare ticket so at least she had the option of having her money refunded if she decided not to travel.  That is an option not available on Westjet.

It's true that we don't offer refundable tickets, yet, however, if someone is bumped off a flight they have the option of getting a full refund, not a travel credit.  If someone decided not to travel they would get a travel credit plus a change fee for the next flight.  

[blues deville]

Thanks for the feedback.

I agree the JS seat was a one-of solution and no pilot would ever be expected to same thing on a long haul flight.....but I have seen it done at my last two carriers. Most contracts now would not allow it.

The Jazz pilots and cabin crew are not at fault here. It is ACs handling of their oversold flight and lousy customer service. My daughter was expecting the kind of service that includes a polite check-in and a professional departure process at the gate. This AC/Jazz operation missed by a mile. Choices for air travel from YYS-YSB are AC/Jazz and Porter. Porter's departure times made them useless for the trip. WS does not fly there yet. I do like the fact that Westjet does not oversell their aircraft. Whatever system they use to fill their flights must be working. Probably more difficult to manage a 35-38 seat aircraft in a big system like AC but I will not make any excuses for AC's poor treatment of my child.

As far the YSB landing, stuff happens. We all know that and it may have been a NFG doing the landing at the end of a long day. It was just the icing on the cake for my 22 year old's first Jazz flight. I must have been lucky to have spent over 3500 hrs flying a DH8 (only on -100s) and never even thought about smooth Dash 8 landings. Landings appeared about every hour in the route structure so everybody just got good. Half of them were on a 4000' runway surrounded by water and geese under a 2100' communications tower/revolving restaurant. The ones which were most fun involved circling through the fog over tall ships docked in the harbour. To the NFG, if you are slamming the nose on during your landings, your attitude at TD may be too nose high or your de-rotation is too fast. Try that next time for better results or get a demo from your trainer. He can probably do them in his sleep

Fly safe.

bd

[CD]

...WS does not fly there yet...

Just a point of clarification but WS did fly to YSB for a period of time but couldn't make the route work back then.

WestJet Withdraws Service from Sault Ste. Marie and Sudbury

[cp fa]

Just curious, you said you bought your daughter a full fare ticket, did you use any of the employee options to buy it? Ie, would there have been anything in her file that identified her as your offspring (I'm assuming you are an AC employee)?

I'm just wondering if there was a reason why they singled her out.

[blues deville]

Just curious, you said you bought your daughter a full fare ticket, did you use any of the employee options to buy it? Ie, would there have been anything in her file that identified her as your offspring (I'm assuming you are an AC employee)?

I'm just wondering if there was a reason why they singled her out.

I don't know why cpfa. Confirmed fare ticket and I am not an AC employee. The agent's exact words to my daughter...."this is a totally random selection". One item I can now confirm is this all took place in the AC/Jazz departure lounge. Not on board the aircraft as I thought last night. So the agent was able to scan the crowd and make her "totally random selection".

Another item....talking to an AC res agent today, she advised there was an aircraft swap before the flight. I assume it was from a DH8-300 to a -100 series. So what is that? I guess 50 seats down to 35+/-? I don't know. They made a boarding lounge PA for volunteers and no one came forward. Another couple were approached and then they picked my kid. I suppose a young person travelling alone is an easy target.

The problem now is that she is now worried about the return trip on Sunday night after the holiday weekend and needs to be back to work Monday AM.

The joys of airline travel these days!

[Seeker]

Look, I'm a parent too and I would be very unhappy to see my daughter being inconvenienced but I just can't let this slide without comment; your daughter is 22 years old and a university graduate but she's reduced to tears because she gets bumped off a flight? Really? And did she include a copy of the METAR along with her description of the landing as being "really rough"? Was the runway wet, was there a gusty crosswind, was the crew requested to hold short of the crossing runway, was there an inversion, a windshear, a flock of birds? No, you seem to suggest that this was done intentionally or through negligence. Really? You believe this? I have many , many thousands of hours in the Dash-8 and I can assure you that firm landings are the norm rather than the exception and even though her brother is, apparently, a highly gifted pilot she may not be the best judge of the landing. Do you honestly believe that the agent and the pilot went out of their way to cause this trouble for your daughter as you are implying? Really? Or do you think that the situation is dynamic, the passenger load or connections are not known accurately until the last minute and the passenger agent and pilots were just doing the best they could?

[blues deville]

Just a point of clarification but WS did fly to YSB for a period of time but couldn't make the route work back then.

WestJet Withdraws Service from Sault Ste. Marie and Sudbury

Competition usually helps the quality of service. I have noticed much better service on AC when the route is offered by several other airlines and they know you have a choice. Especially when flying south of the border although its not hard to beat the level of service provided by most US carriers today.

WS should try again but I suppose there is not enough traffic to support a daily 737NG.

[blues deville]

Look, I'm a parent too and I would be very unhappy to see my daughter being inconvenienced but I just can't let this slide without comment; your daughter is 22 years old and a university graduate but she's reduced to tears because she gets bumped off a flight? Really? And did she include a copy of the METAR along with her description of the landing as being "really rough"? Was the runway wet, was there a gusty crosswind, was the crew requested to hold short of the crossing runway, was there an inversion, a windshear, a flock of birds? No, you seem to suggest that this was done intentionally or through negligence. Really? You believe this? I have many , many thousands of hours in the Dash-8 and I can assure you that firm landings are the norm rather than the exception and even though her brother is, apparently, a highly gifted pilot she may not be the best judge of the landing. Do you honestly believe that the agent and the pilot went out of their way to cause this trouble for your daughter as you are implying? Really? Or do you think that the situation is dynamic, the passenger load or connections are not known accurately until the last minute and the passenger agent and pilots were just doing the best they could?

Wow. Okay....I won't let this slide either.

Facts. You would be proud to have a child with the qualities my daughter demonstrates daily with her family, friends and in her workplace. She has been nothing but a source a pride since the minute she arrived 22 years ago. An "A+" student through all of her school years. Awards in grade 8 and 12. Scholarships to top US universities which she turned down. She wanted to stay in Canada. Top athelete is her chosen sports, model, actress (2 movies, TV commercials, and more print ads than her grandmother can count) and now university honors grad and fully employed two weeks after finishing her 4th year. How often do kids today get that? If you are a typical pilot Seeker, you wouldn't make her cry. You'd be asking for her phone number.

Her day started really early that morning. GO Train across the city....full day at work....and a taxi ride to Pearson and then sit around T1 for nearly four hours. You'd be crying too. So don't even think about attacking this young lady. So back off, way off pal!

Firm Dash 8 landings are the norm. Really? I'll tell you what Seeker. If you have thousands of hours flying Dash 8's and have not yet figured out how to land it smoothly on a regular basis by now I'd say you're in the wrong line of work. With aircraft today being so automated, about the only time a pilot can demonstrate their skills are during a manual landing. So good luck with that.

What I am saying Seeker is that AC/Jazz made this experience a lousy one for my daughter. It was my idea for her to fly rather than drive and unfortunatelty AC was the only choice for her travel plans. Too bad.

When I get a report of the return YSB-YYZ flight, I will be sure to post a follow up...good or bad. If anyone on this site is operating the 2030L departure, believe me you will notice her. Everywhere she goes she gets noticed but she is the nicest kid you'll ever meet.

Now back to writing to AC's complaint department.

[thor]

Wow. Okay....I won't let this slide either.

Facts. You would be proud to have a child with the qualities my daughter demonstrates daily with her family, friends and in her workplace. She has been nothing but a source a pride since the minute she arrived 22 years ago. An "A+" student through all of her school years. Awards in grade 8 and 12. Scholarships to top US universities which she turned down. She wanted to stay in Canada. Top athelete is her chosen sports, model, actress (2 movies, TV commercials, and more print ads than her grandmother can count) and now university honors grad and fully employed two weeks after finishing her 4th year. How often do kids today get that? If you are a typical pilot Seeker, you wouldn't make her cry. You'd be asking for her phone number.

Her day started really early that morning. GO Train across the city....full day at work....and a taxi ride to Pearson and then sit around T1 for nearly four hours. You'd be crying too. So don't even think about attacking this young lady. So back off, way off pal!

Firm Dash 8 landings are the norm. Really? I'll tell you what Seeker. If you have thousands of hours flying Dash 8's and have not yet figured out how to land it smoothly on a regular basis by now I'd say you're in the wrong line of work. With aircraft today being so automated, about the only time a pilot can demonstrate their skills are during a manual landing. So good luck with that.

What I am saying Seeker is that AC/Jazz made this experience a lousy one for my daughter. It was my idea for her to fly rather than drive and unfortunatelty AC was the only choice for her travel plans. Too bad.

When I get a report of the return YSB-YYZ flight, I will be sure to post a follow up...good or bad. If anyone on this site is operating the 2030L departure, believe me you will notice her. Everywhere she goes she gets noticed but she is the nicest kid you'll ever meet.

Now back to writing to AC's complaint department.

Wow, she sounds like quite the broad.

[Seeker]

Wow. Okay....I won't let this slide either.

Facts. You would be proud to have a child with the qualities my daughter demonstrates daily with her family, friends and in her workplace. She has been nothing but a source a pride since the minute she arrived 22 years ago. An "A+" student through all of her school years. Awards in grade 8 and 12. Scholarships to top US universities which she turned down. She wanted to stay in Canada. Top athelete is her chosen sports, model, actress (2 movies, TV commercials, and more print ads than her grandmother can count) and now university honors grad and fully employed two weeks after finishing her 4th year. How often do kids today get that? If you are a typical pilot Seeker, you wouldn't make her cry. You'd be asking for her phone number.

Her day started really early that morning. GO Train across the city....full day at work....and a taxi ride to Pearson and then sit around T1 for nearly four hours. You'd be crying too. So don't even think about attacking this young lady. So back off, way off pal!

Firm Dash 8 landings are the norm. Really? I'll tell you what Seeker. If you have thousands of hours flying Dash 8's and have not yet figured out how to land it smoothly on a regular basis by now I'd say you're in the wrong line of work. With aircraft today being so automated, about the only time a pilot can demonstrate their skills are during a manual landing. So good luck with that.

What I am saying Seeker is that AC/Jazz made this experience a lousy one for my daughter. It was my idea for her to fly rather than drive and unfortunatelty AC was the only choice for her travel plans. Too bad.

When I get a report of the return YSB-YYZ flight, I will be sure to post a follow up...good or bad. If anyone on this site is operating the 2030L departure, believe me you will notice her. Everywhere she goes she gets noticed but she is the nicest kid you'll ever meet.

Now back to writing to AC's complaint department.

I am not disparaging your daughter. She sounds like an accomplished young woman and you're proud of her - good. But now let's take a little closer look; you're asking that we allow for, what appears at first glance, to be an overly emotional response to one of life's inconveniences but are not accepting that the very same fragile emotional state/stressed/exhausted frame of mind may have skewed her impression of everything that was happening. I'm reacting in particular to two things you posted; your comment that the agent "decided to finish her shift with a bang" and the flightcrew "decided to slam the nosewheel down". I don't believe that the agent decided to intentionally cause problems for daughter nor do I believe that the flightcrew intentionally did a rough landing but you apparently believe both of these to be true. The way that you phrased these comments show a pre-existing attitude that will taint everything you experience. Maybe your daughter needed a few kind words at check-in and didn't get them and this becomes a "nasty" agent. Maybe the pilot landed it firmer than usual due to a gusty crosswind and wet runway and this becomes a "rough landing and slamming the nosewheel down". I don't know since I wasn't there but by your own admission she wasn't herself due to an extremely long and stressful day and as much as she didn't enjoy the flight it's probably for the best that she wasn't driving.

Once again, I'm not disrespecting you or her just asking you to look objectively at what happened.