AC/Jazz 7819

[blues deville]

I am not disparaging your daughter. She sounds like an accomplished young woman and you're proud of her - good. But now let's take a little closer look; you're asking that we allow for, what appears at first glance, to be an overly emotional response to one of life's inconveniences but are not accepting that the very same fragile emotional state/stressed/exhausted frame of mind may have skewed her impression of everything that was happening. I'm reacting in particular to two things you posted; your comment that the agent "decided to finish her shift with a bang" and the flightcrew "decided to slam the nosewheel down". I don't believe that the agent decided to intentionally cause problems for daughter nor do I believe that the flightcrew intentionally did a rough landing but you apparently believe both of these to be true. The way that you phrased these comments show a pre-existing attitude that will taint everything you experience. Maybe your daughter needed a few kind words at check-in and didn't get them and this becomes a "nasty" agent. Maybe the pilot landed it firmer than usual due to a gusty crosswind and wet runway and this becomes a "rough landing and slamming the nosewheel down". I don't know since I wasn't there but by your own admission she wasn't herself due to an extremely long and stressful day and as much as she didn't enjoy the flight it's probably for the best that she wasn't driving.

Once again, I'm not disrespecting you or her just asking you to look objectively at what happened.

Good.

For the record the weather in Sudbury was clear.

Also, AC's online complaint system functions as well as their confirmed seat status. I finally had to send a fax to their office which interestingly enough is located in Calgary.

bd

[Southshore]

Ok, I've read enough. You've got great kids, I've got great kids.

Now, I the moment I read your bit saying that "you gotta work at screwing up a Dash landing" - your cred went out the window that.. very.. second. It was clear you didn't have a clue what you were talking about. The D-8 is a talented, wonderful airplane that is crap to land. A ton of D-8 pilots are laffing at you and it detracts from your complaint about your kid getting on the airplane. Apples and oranges. Nobody bashes it on on purpose. Unless you've flown it yourself - shut up. I don't care what kid you thought had the great hands and feet you think he has. He doesn't work here but if he does, he wishes you'd shut up too.

As far as the loading goes - yup, somebody makes the call. But the guys I know work their a$$ off trying to get the most people on the airplane as they can. But, fuel vs people? Fuel wins. End of story.

Read the stuff your wrote, take a deep breath, stuff happens, it wasn't personal.

cheers

38 years flying, 21000 hours, 8 years on the dash and , YEAH, I think I made the right career choice even tho the thing lands like a bag of cement (sometimes you get lucky, but I don't brag about that 'cuz I know whats gonna happen next).

Now go have a scotch and think about the really important stuff.

[ChicoChico]

bd,

Your daughter really sounds too good to be true but then I think the same of my kids. It doesn't mean she didn't overeact in this situation though. It was, perhaps, a good thing that she wasn't the pilot of this flight. I mean after a long tough day where things don't work out, I sometimes feel like crying too - but I don't since it might affect my ability to land the plane...seriously,

Chico

[blues deville]

Ok, I've read enough. You've got great kids, I've got great kids.

Now, I the moment I read your bit saying that "you gotta work at screwing up a Dash landing" - your cred went out the window that.. very.. second. It was clear you didn't have a clue what you were talking about. The D-8 is a talented, wonderful airplane that is crap to land. A ton of D-8 pilots are laffing at you and it detracts from your complaint about your kid getting on the airplane. Apples and oranges. Nobody bashes it on on purpose. Unless you've flown it yourself - shut up. I don't care what kid you thought had the great hands and feet you think he has. He doesn't work here but if he does, he wishes you'd shut up too.

As far as the loading goes - yup, somebody makes the call. But the guys I know work their a$$ off trying to get the most people on the airplane as they can. But, fuel vs people? Fuel wins. End of story.

Read the stuff your wrote, take a deep breath, stuff happens, it wasn't personal.

cheers

38 years flying, 21000 hours, 8 years on the dash and , YEAH, I think I made the right career choice even tho the thing lands like a bag of cement (sometimes you get lucky, but I don't brag about that 'cuz I know whats gonna happen next).

Now go have a scotch and think about the really important stuff.

I will break my "never argue with an idiot rule" and give you some more crap to read.

My DH8 flying was a long time ago but it was 3500 hours worth at a little airline who operated them. None of the 100 pilots I supervised and managed would be laughing. I set a high standard (as any manager should) and they ran with it. Those pilots have all moved on and are flying for major airlines in Canada and all over the world. So perhaps its just you that is laughing.

This wasn't a fuel vs. people situation. This was a last minute aircraft swap to a Dash 8 with less seats. The AC gate agent looked for someone to stay behind and randomly, as she agent stated, selected my daughter who had waiting several hours at T1 for this flight. Probably longer than anyone else in the boarding lounge as she had arrived over 3 1/2 hours before departure time.

Air Canada now has my letter complaining about their customer service and the manner in which they treated my daughter at the initial check-in and at the boarding lounge. Unless you can add something to that, I don't think your post has made us any wiser.

And thanks for the suggestion. I will be thinking of some "really important" stuff.

Tomorrow night my daughter will have to get back on another flight operated by AC/Jazz. Drinking's not going to help.

[blues deville]

bd,

Your daughter really sounds too good to be true but then I think the same of my kids. It doesn't mean she didn't overeact in this situation though. It was, perhaps, a good thing that she wasn't the pilot of this flight. I mean after a long tough day where things don't work out, I sometimes feel like crying too - but I don't since it might affect my ability to land the plane...seriously,

Chico

Too good to be true Chico? My wife and I think so sometimes. I figure a good measure of your child's success can be quickly found in today's fast paced world by simply googling their name. If you can fill up several pages on them with school awards, sports teams victories and other activities, they have done well.

Everyone reacts differently to this age old problem of getting bumped off an airliner. You can walk away with no feeling either way, or you can get upset. For most people that means either getting angry or as in my daughter's case, crying about it. So my sensitive daughter who was anxious to get to Sudbury and would never get angry with anyone, just felt helpless and started to cry.

Simple as that.

[newgirl]

Too good to be true Chico? My wife and I think so sometimes. I figure a good measure of your child's success can be quickly found in today's fast paced world by simply googling their name. If you can fill up several pages on them with school awards, sports teams victories and other activities, they have done well.

Everyone reacts differently to this age old problem of getting bumped off an airliner. You can walk away with no feeling either way, or you can get upset. For most people that means either getting angry or as in my daughter's case, crying about it. So my sensitive daughter who was anxious to get to Sudbury and would never get angry with anyone, just felt helpless and started to cry.

Simple as that.

[newgirl]

As a retired gate agent and with all due respect to your daughter,I question that she was singled out to be a denied boarding because of her age.

Five years ago when I retired , the computer would show in order of checkin sequence who was to be denied boarding on an oversold flight. It was never a random look over the passengers and pick one out.

When I travel,I make sure that I checkin on the website within the 24 hour period. So although your daughter may have been at the airport 4 hours before the flight if she hadn't used the web checkin , she may have been designated for denied boarding especialy if the aircraft was downsized.

My son is 24 and he is a great kid but I have no idea how he would react in the same situation. Young women and men of that age group seem to have a sense of entitlement and have no qualms stating their views. 22 is a volatile stage in their young life. They aren't children but haven't yet learned what it means to be an adult.

I'm sorry your daughter had a bad experience but I have also dealt with young adults who had no respect in their dealings with me simply because I was too old in their minds.

[blues deville]

As a retired gate agent and with all due respect to your daughter,I question that she was singled out to be a denied boarding because of her age.

Five years ago when I retired , the computer would show in order of checkin sequence who was to be denied boarding on an oversold flight. It was never a random look over the passengers and pick one out.

When I travel,I make sure that I checkin on the website within the 24 hour period. So although your daughter may have been at the airport 4 hours before the flight if she hadn't used the web checkin , she may have been designated for denied boarding especialy if the aircraft was downsized.

My son is 24 and he is a great kid but I have no idea how he would react in the same situation. Young women and men of that age group seem to have a sense of entitlement and have no qualms stating their views. 22 is a volatile stage in their young life. They aren't children but haven't yet learned what it means to be an adult.

I'm sorry your daughter had a bad experience but I have also dealt with young adults who had no respect in their dealings with me simply because I was too old in their minds.

Thank you newgirl for your comments and information. I was hoping that an informed person might be able to shed some light on this incident. All I have managed to do so far is PO a bunch of Dash 8 pilots.

I am only repeating what she was told at the gate. The agent handling the flight advised that she had been selected "totally at random" and advised to go to another area for further information. She did indeed check-in online 24 hours prior as you mentioned and will do so again tonight before her return flight to YYZ.

There is no sense of entitlement when it comes to my daughter. She has spent many hours working through school in customer service jobs (and still works the odd shift for extra cash) and knows how to deal with people of all ages. This was not something she caused. Believe me.

I am hopeful that her return flight will be a better experience. As the man of her dreams currently resides in Sudbury, this may be a regular trip in the months ahead.

Thanks again.

bd

[Tango Foxtrot]

Could we please let this thread die. It really has no redeeming qualities, and for the most part is unbecoming of almost everybody involved.

[blues deville]

Could we please let this thread die. It really has no redeeming qualities, and for the most part is unbecoming of almost everybody involved.

If you don't like the thread contents, guess what?

Don't read it.

Thanks for all your support.

[boestar]

There is one thing that hasn't been mentioned....

AC oversells flights. We all know that. They have been doing it for almost 80 years and it has benefits. AC has gathered data that allows for the over sell to work (most of the time) Denied boardings happen as a result but compared to the amount of oversell it is actually a rather rare occurrance. If people would actually show up for the flight they booked then there wouldnt be an issue.

I take a flight from LHR regularily and it is usually oversold by a significant amount (10% on a 767-300 or 777) and almost always leaves with empty seats.

We may not like it but the oversell system works (most of the time) it puts the most bums in seats. The bumped passenger is also taken care of in the way of hotel and rebooking.

As for the 22 year old travelling.

I have been travelling SOLO since I was around 16. I have been bumped off flights and have actually been the volunteer. (sometimes there are benefits to it). I have never broken down and cried. What if it was a weather cancellation? Mechanical? or any other reason to be stranded. I have been through them all. Weather doesnt get you a hotel so its either pony up or sleep in the terminal.

The point is S%$^ happens and sometimes it happens to you. Its a fact of life and a learning experience. Life goes on and all is well. Don't give yourself an ulcer over it.

[blues deville]

There is one thing that hasn't been mentioned....

AC oversells flights. We all know that. They have been doing it for almost 80 years and it has benefits. AC has gathered data that allows for the over sell to work (most of the time) Denied boardings happen as a result but compared to the amount of oversell it is actually a rather rare occurrance. If people would actually show up for the flight they booked then there wouldnt be an issue.

I take a flight from LHR regularily and it is usually oversold by a significant amount (10% on a 767-300 or 777) and almost always leaves with empty seats.

We may not like it but the oversell system works (most of the time) it puts the most bums in seats. The bumped passenger is also taken care of in the way of hotel and rebooking.

As for the 22 year old travelling.

I have been travelling SOLO since I was around 16. I have been bumped off flights and have actually been the volunteer. (sometimes there are benefits to it). I have never broken down and cried. What if it was a weather cancellation? Mechanical? or any other reason to be stranded. I have been through them all. Weather doesnt get you a hotel so its either pony up or sleep in the terminal.

The point is S%$^ happens and sometimes it happens to you. Its a fact of life and a learning experience. Life goes on and all is well. Don't give yourself an ulcer over it.

Lucky for those two passengers back in 1936 on the -10A to Seattle. I am sure it became company policy shortly afterwards.

Thanks for the history and "life" lesson too.

I think your avatar and interests tell more than I need to know about you.

Still travelling solo?

[anonymous]

Lucky for those two passengers back in 1936 on the -10A to Seattle. I am sure it became company policy shortly afterwards.

Thanks for the history and "life" lesson too.

I think your avatar and interests tell more than I need to know about you.

Still travelling solo?

Wow, you are a one-trick pony aren't you. And when you get a bit of attitude back, you start the insults. Frankly, I suspect the issue on entitlement rests with you and not your daughter.

Guess what, lots of us have 22 year old daughters that are wonderful and accomplished....that means nothing in the context of your story. As far as I can tell, the only issue, is why she was initially "bumped" , but then she really wasn't....but then there was a rough landing, yada yada yada....

Tell us what answer from Air Canada is going to satisfy you? (I say you because I don't think this your daughter's issue, you seem to be very zealous in pursuing this perceived poor treatment of your daughter).

Did you read about the Porter trip to YTZ that couldn't land last week in YTZ and because of the G20 they couldn't land in YYZ, so they headed off to YOW and Porter dumped the pax at the airport and then attempted to give them discount coupons for hotels in a city where they weren't even supposed to be....I can just imagine your apoplexy and outrage at Porter?

[blues deville]

Wow, you are a one-trick pony aren't you. And when you get a bit of attitude back, you start the insults. Frankly, I suspect the issue on entitlement rests with you and not your daughter.

Guess what, lots of us have 22 year old daughters that are wonderful and accomplished....that means nothing in the context of your story. As far as I can tell, the only issue, is why she was initially "bumped" , but then she really wasn't....but then there was a rough landing, yada yada yada....

Tell us what answer from Air Canada is going to satisfy you? (I say you because I don't think this your daughter's issue, you seem to be very zealous in pursuing this perceived poor treatment of your daughter).

Did you read about the Porter trip to YTZ that couldn't land last week in YTZ and because of the G20 they couldn't land in YYZ, so they headed off to YOW and Porter dumped the pax at the airport and then attempted to give them discount coupons for hotels in a city where they weren't even supposed to be....I can just imagine your apoplexy and outrage at Porter?

I stated earlier that I did not want ot get involved in a nasty exchange regarding this airline employee's family incident. This is not an off topic post, but something that could happen to anyone of us or our families when travelling on our own carriers or interlining. I see no need for any insults such as Southshore telling me to 'shutup' because apparently I know nothing about flying DH8s. Or the website monitor Tango Niner telling us to end this thread because he is board with the discussion.

So far only Newgirl (a former AC agent) is the only one to post a constructive response. Everyone else seems to feel my daughter should just suck it up and forget about AC's handling of her flight.

Since I was the one to suggest that my daughter fly to Sudbury rather than drive during a holiday weekend, I do feel like I am entitled to some answers from AC. My daugher was the passenger but I paid for the product....the flight. So I believe AC has received my letter (hoping the YYC FAX machine is working because the complaint's website does not) and will provide some information about their policies and perhaps an apology for what I consider poor customer service which started at the initial check-in.

As for including me in a recent Porter disaster, who wouldn't be upset for being dumped in the wrong city in that situation.

Once again I am breaking my never argue with an idiot rule.

[chockalicious]

I am dumber (the bar was already low) having read this thread.

[blues deville]

I am dumber (the bar was already low) having read this thread.

Thanks for the clarification and glad you made it through to the last post. A slow day?

This should end it for those interested. The 2030L AC/Jazz flight has departed YSB bound for YYZ. The ground agents were polite at check-in and did not try to kick my daughter off the flight. Normal customer service.

Now let's get back to talking about WestJet and learning so much from those marathon threads.

[Guest rozar s'macco]

If I'm not mistaken, at AC in case of an oversold condition passengers are involuntarily bumped in inverse order of fare paid, excluding status passengers ie. lowest fare paid gets bumped first unless they are Elite or Super Elite.

Regarding overselling:

WJ does not oversell, but they also do not sell refundable tickets, which is why everybody who buys a ticket usually shows up else they forfeit their money or face change fees.

AC oversells, because they sell refundable tickets (the fare class that competes with WJ's product, Tango and Tango plus are not refundable, however). Ergo, it is not as punitive for a passenger travelling on an AC Latitude or Executive class fare to no-show, because they don't lose the money and don't incur additional cost to change the ticket. On some city pairs as noted above, it is commonplace for passengers to no show.

Anyhow how this relates to blues deville's daughter is this: I deduce that since your plan B to flying was driving, you purchased a Tango fare at a low price. Unfortunately due to some unknown factors, more passengers showed up than seats were available. Nobody volunteered (initially) to relinquish their seat, which resulted in your daughter being involuntarily bumped. After the pretty girl cried, somebody volunteered. Case closed.

In light of that, I fail to understand how the time she showed up at the airport, her mode of transport to the airport, her work schedule, her school record, her scholarships, her looks and acting career and the quality of the landing are relevant.

[blues deville]

If I'm not mistaken, at AC in case of an oversold condition passengers are involuntarily bumped in inverse order of fare paid, excluding status passengers ie. lowest fare paid gets bumped first unless they are Elite or Super Elite.

Regarding overselling:

WJ does not oversell, but they also do not sell refundable tickets, which is why everybody who buys a ticket usually shows up else they forfeit their money or face change fees.

AC oversells, because they sell refundable tickets (the fare class that competes with WJ's product, Tango and Tango plus are not refundable, however). Ergo, it is not as punitive for a passenger travelling on an AC Latitude or Executive class fare to no-show, because they don't lose the money and don't incur additional cost to change the ticket. On some city pairs as noted above, it is commonplace for passengers to no show.

Anyhow how this relates to blues deville's daughter is this: I deduce that since your plan B to flying was driving, you purchased a Tango fare at a low price. Unfortunately due to some unknown factors, more passengers showed up than seats were available. Nobody volunteered (initially) to relinquish their seat, which resulted in your daughter being involuntarily bumped. After the pretty girl cried, somebody volunteered. Case closed.

In light of that, I fail to understand how the time she showed up at the airport, her mode of transport to the airport, her work schedule, her school record, her scholarships, her looks and acting career and the quality of the landing are relevant.

Again some relevant information. This was a Tango fare ticket.

Several responses to my post seemed to attack my daughter's character and behaviour. That doesn't work for me.

[newgirl]

Boestar's comment on the LHR flight being oversold almost daily but leaving with open seats reminded me of a situation just when electronic tickets were being introduced.

Our 0730 flight to YYZ was oversold by 10 which in our small station could amount to panic as all YYZ flights (2) are full every day. At 0645 a school group connecting in YYZ to LHR had still not shown up. In those days the ticket numbers did not have to be entered in their file. Just by chance an agent who had worked the day before wandered by and stopped to see what we were clucking over. It happens that the group had traveled the day before. Outcome of the story not only did our flight leave with 14 open seats but so did the LHR flight.

We had to phone the Travel agency to determine what flight they would be using on the return and their reply was "Oh dear, didn't that second reservation get cancelled?" NOOO.

Loss of revenue on 4 flights as there were no last minute seat sales. However in this case I do believe the Agency was charged a penalty for not cancelling a double booking.

Most of AC's international connection's are through London or Frankfurt. Many times the connecting flight was delayed and so the LHR or FRA flights left with open seats.

Am I in favour of overselling an aircraft, yes depending on the market.In the very small staions -no as they have no extra aircraft hanging around to take up the slack.

[blues deville]

I hope her flight back was uneventful and smooth.

Thank you Malcolm. It was pretty good according to a short conversation with her.

Check-in was normal with an "extra friendly" agent in Sudbury. According to my daughter and in her words, a nice crosswind landing in YYZ. The only odd event was the takeoff.

They taxiied to Rwy 22 (she saw the painted number from her row 9 window seat) and started to power up. Then power down. Again power up. The take off was discontinued. Aircraft turned around and taxiied back to runway threshold for another attempt. Normal takeoff on second attempt.

Question: What is Jazz's PA policy regarding low/high speed rejected takeoffs? There was no PA from the flight deck as to what was going on.

bd

[manwest]

Again some relevant information. This was a Tango fare ticket.

Several responses to my post seemed to attack my daughter's character and behaviour. That doesnt't work for me.

Tango fare tickets are the lowest fare types usually (sometimes tango plus can be cheaper, go figure,). If seat selection was not paid for at time of booking or did not do online checkin and select seat, the tango fare passengers are first to get bumped.

http://www.aircanada.com/shared/en/agents_na/flights/pop_faretypes.html

[blues deville]

Tango fare tickets are the lowest fare types usually (sometimes tango plus can be cheaper, go figure,). If seat selection was not paid for at time of booking or did not do online checkin and select seat, the tango fare passengers are first to get bumped.

http://www.aircanada.com/shared/en/agents_na/flights/pop_faretypes.html

Interesting. Thanks for the info. I've flown using Tango fares quite often on business as well as personal and I suppose I have just been lucky never to have gotten bumped.

Also, its interesting how my earlier comment (in my usual sarcastic style) regarding a recent Jazz landing in YSB, received so much feedback, but not one response at all about their RTO PAs. Are the Jazz trainers so busy watching the NFGs in the right seat that no one remembers who's paying the bills?

Or does this kind of incident replace the standard AC entertainment system? Passengers have an hour or so to "guess" what happened before they took off.

Yup, that should do it!

[roadbiker]

Interesting. Thanks for the info. I've flown using Tango fares quite often on business as well as personal and I suppose I have just been lucky never to have gotten bumped.

Also, its interesting how my earlier comment (in my usual sarcastic style) regarding a recent Jazz landing in YSB, received so much feedback, but not one response at all about their RTO PAs. Are the Jazz trainers so busy watching the NFGs in the right seat that no one remembers who's paying the bills?

Or does this kind of incident replace the standard AC entertainment system? Passengers have an hour or so to "guess" what happened before they took off.

Yup, that should do it!

(and I don't, nor have I ever worked for Jazz or AC...)

BD, put it to rest, you are starting to sound like a douche (well that happened about 3 pages ago, but this is getting outta hand now)

[blues deville]

(and I don't, nor have I ever worked for Jazz or AC...)

BD, put it to rest, you are starting to sound like a douche (well that happened about 3 pages ago, but this is getting outta hand now)

Last time I checked I was an airline employee posting an issue on an airline employee forum. If you don't work for Jazz or AC then I believe you have nothing of value to add.

Also, if you were board after reading all three pages of this dull saga, I suggest you swing over to "Dog Gone Westjet in the News" or "Overbooking vs. Not" and add some excitement to your day.

bd

[Mr Sparkle]

Last time I checked I was an airline employee

Which airline?