AC/Jazz 7819

[blues deville]

Which airline?

I don't think that is relevant but if you tell me why that information will help you, PM me if necessary?

[ChicoChico]

bd,

By referring to Jazz pilots as "NFG'S" you have lost what little credibility you might have had with your original complaint in this thread. You start out with a legitimate concern but quickly undermine your own case by slagging the pilot's landing in YSB. It goes further downhill with the bio on your wonderful daughter like the quality of her character is relevant. Then the coup de grace - NFG!

You are quite right we don't have to read any of the words on this forum and I find its easier to decide whether to read yours now...IMHO

Chico

[Southshore]

Yea, he says he was some kind of 'manager' at some point with a pretty high opinion of himself. I can just imagin how much fun of a place that would have been to work with a 'tude like his. NFG - sheesh.

[blues deville]

bd,

By referring to Jazz pilots as "NFG'S" you have lost what little credibility you might have had with your original complaint in this thread. You start out with a legitimate concern but quickly undermine your own case by slagging the pilot's landing in YSB. It goes further downhill with the bio on your wonderful daughter like the quality of her character is relevant. Then the coup de grace - NFG!

You are quite right we don't have to read any of the words on this forum and I find its easier to decide whether to read yours now...IMHO

Chico

Your opinion of my crediblity on this forum is of little concern to me especially when you chimed in immediately with "Might want to confirm all the facts before going off".

The term NFG is pretty commonly used throughout this industry so you might want to lighten up. From both the landing and departure reports at the YSB end of this trip, it's obvious that my daughter's flight were operated by a "new pilot in training" as was mentioned by others. Either that or the standard is just lower at some operations.

My guess is you're still reading this response.

bd

[blues deville]

Yea, he says he was some kind of 'manager' at some point with a pretty high opinion of himself. I can just imagin how much fun of a place that would have been to work with a 'tude like his. NFG - sheesh.

I don't recall saying I had a high opinion of myself. I did say I set a high standard as CP. That was my job.

By the way Southshore. What is your SOP at Jazz regarding a PA after an RTO? The crew operating my daughter's flight failed to advise the passengers as to why the first take off attempt was discontinued.

bd

[boestar]

Your opinion of my crediblity on this forum is of little concern to me especially when you chimed in immediately with "Might want to confirm all the facts before going off".

The term NFG is pretty commonly used throughout this industry so you might want to lighten up. From both the landing and departure reports at the YSB end of this trip, it's obvious that my daughter's flight were operated by a "new pilot in training" as was mentioned by others. Either that or the standard is just lower at some operations.

My guess is you're still reading this response.

bd

I just looked at the flight in question and the crew were definately NOT "NFG" or "in training" Both crew members and the DH pilot on the flight hve years with the company so I do not know where the Definately in Training comes into play.

Apparently you are a god among gods in your own mind if you can talk down to the pilots on the flight as you do. these are very well trained individuals and they do a damn good job. Perhaps you can land a dash better but that remains to be proven. Obviously you have NEVER blown an approach or landing in whatever hunk of aluminum you fly so why not make millions by sharing you secret to supreme perfection.

Your kid got bumped, could have easily been someone elses kid... cry me a river stuff happens. turns out she got on any how. Perhaps next time I get bumped I will cry and see if anyone bails out the 6'4" linebacker type. somehow I doubt it. the landing was rough again stuff happens. Were you in the flight deck... thats right NO YOU WEREN'T. Any number of factors could have been at play in the landing. Hell I had a landing in a 767 (well most of them actually) where I had to ask if that was a landing or a controlled crash. No fault to the pilot that just happens to be how the bird lands most of the time. Straight legs will do that.

As a side note the aircraft departed with 36 passengers and 1 deadheading crew. for a total of 37. coincidentally the exact number of seats installed in the aircraft.

Lets end this crappy run on thread here. All arrived safe and sound and enjoyed a good weekend with family and friends.

Pass the beer.

[Ex 9A Guy]

They taxiied to Rwy 22 (she saw the painted number from her row 9 window seat) and started to power up. Then power down. Again power up. The take off was discontinued. Aircraft turned around and taxiied back to runway threshold for another attempt. Normal takeoff on second attempt.

By your description this was not even close to an RTO, I would be surprised if the airspeed even came alive. RTOs occur in the high speed range, above 80 knots, anything below that is considered a low speed aborted takeoff which by anyones definition is a very minor event. Pretty obviously it was a minor indication problem that was solved pretty quickly and was deemed a non-event by all involved except you and your daughter.

I had a similar event just last week when a "Speedbrake Do Not Arm' light came on as we advanced the thrust for takeoff. I closed the thrust levers, didn't even have to brake to slow down and cleared the active runway, set the park brake and discussed the situation with my F/O, informed the F/As and made a quick PA to the folks in the back. After discussions with MTC and cycling the speedbrake and TLs a few times it was determined to be a spurious warning and a second takeoff was attempted, this time with no indication problems. Speaking to the folks as they deplaned at our destination it was obvious that they considered it as much of a non event as it actually was.

Should the crew have made a PA, possibly, but I don't know the circumstances as they were still on the active runway maybe there were other traffic issues. My Mum used to say not to point fingers at people as there are always 3 more pointed back at you.

[thor]

I don't recall saying I had a high opinion of myself. I did say I set a high standard as CP. That was my job.

By the way Southshore. What is your SOP at Jazz regarding a PA after an RTO? The crew operating my daughter's flight failed to advise the passengers as to why the first take off attempt was discontinued.

bd

Probably some apples roll away from the tree.

[blues deville]

I just looked at the flight in question and the crew were definately NOT "NFG" or "in training" Both crew members and the DH pilot on the flight hve years with the company so I do not know where the Definately in Training comes into play.

Apparently you are a god among gods in your own mind if you can talk down to the pilots on the flight as you do. these are very well trained individuals and they do a damn good job. Perhaps you can land a dash better but that remains to be proven. Obviously you have NEVER blown an approach or landing in whatever hunk of aluminum you fly so why not make millions by sharing you secret to supreme perfection.

Your kid got bumped, could have easily been someone elses kid... cry me a river stuff happens. turns out she got on any how. Perhaps next time I get bumped I will cry and see if anyone bails out the 6'4" linebacker type. somehow I doubt it. the landing was rough again stuff happens. Were you in the flight deck... thats right NO YOU WEREN'T. Any number of factors could have been at play in the landing. Hell I had a landing in a 767 (well most of them actually) where I had to ask if that was a landing or a controlled crash. No fault to the pilot that just happens to be how the bird lands most of the time. Straight legs will do that.

As a side note the aircraft departed with 36 passengers and 1 deadheading crew. for a total of 37. coincidentally the exact number of seats installed in the aircraft.

Lets end this crappy run on thread here. All arrived safe and sound and enjoyed a good weekend with family and friends.

Pass the beer.

Definitely pass the beer(s).

So as you have determined, no NFGs. Just someone having a less than stellar day. As I said earlier, stuff happens. Thanks for the info.

My secret you ask? No secret....just good training from day one and practice. Lots of pratice...usually 4 to 6 legs per day and we were always going time-ex due to a shortage of pilots. So lots of seat time. I was also lucky to have my initial DH8 training in pre-simulator days so it was all done on the aircraft from Downsview. Most of my initial training was with the man himself, Mick Saunders.

Yes the flight to YSB did have 37 passengers on board. However, the aisle seat next to my daughter was empty. The friendly dh Jazz pilot (from NB and not PEI) road in the jumpseat and never came back to the cabin after another passenger gave up his seat as well.

Having flown 757s, 767s and now 777s, the landings don't come near as frequently so your time to shine is limited. But keep working at it!

Cheers!

[blues deville]

By your description this was not even close to an RTO, I would be surprised if the airspeed even came alive. RTOs occur in the high speed range, above 80 knots, anything below that is considered a low speed aborted takeoff which by anyones definition is a very minor event. Pretty obviously it was a minor indication problem that was solved pretty quickly and was deemed a non-event by all involved except you and your daughter.

I had a similar event just last week when a "Speedbrake Do Not Arm' light came on as we advanced the thrust for takeoff. I closed the thrust levers, didn't even have to brake to slow down and cleared the active runway, set the park brake and discussed the situation with my F/O, informed the F/As and made a quick PA to the folks in the back. After discussions with MTC and cycling the speedbrake and TLs a few times it was determined to be a spurious warning and a second takeoff was attempted, this time with no indication problems. Speaking to the folks as they deplaned at our destination it was obvious that they considered it as much of a non event as it actually was.

Should the crew have made a PA, possibly, but I don't know the circumstances as they were still on the active runway maybe there were other traffic issues. My Mum used to say not to point fingers at people as there are always 3 more pointed back at you.

Well I don't know what your SOPs state but generally when operating large transport category aircraft, there are two types of RTOs. Low speed (below 80 knots) and high speed (above 80 knots). After your recent low speed incident, you say you made a PA to the passengers to keep them informed. I believe that to be the correct thing to do and would not be surprized to hear this is what your SOPs states. Or perhaps in your case, this was just good airmanship.

I wasn't pointing any fingers. I was asking a question about your Jazz SOPs and no one wants to respond with a straight answer. And these incidents are only a non-event to the veteran traveller. To the first time or nervous flyers, its a nightmare no matter how subtle the event. Pilots should always consider the passenger who may be terrified when it comes to flying. You'd be surprized to know how much of the population is actually afraid to fly. The drop in air travel after 911 was a good example.

Thanks for your comments.

bd

[Seeker]

Well I don't know what your SOPs state but generally when operating large transport category aircraft, there are two types of RTOs. Low speed (below 80 knots) and high speed (above 80 knots). After your recent low speed incident, you say you made a PA to the passengers to keep them informed. I believe that to be the correct thing to do and would not be surprized to hear this is what your SOPs states. Or perhaps in your case, this was just good airmanship.

I wasn't pointing any fingers. I was asking a question about your Jazz SOPs and no one wants to respond with a straight answer. And these incidents are only a non-event to the veteran traveller. To the first time or nervous flyers, its a nightmare no matter how subtle the event. Pilots should always consider the passenger who may be terrified when it comes to flying. You'd be surprized to know how much of the population is actually afraid to fly. The drop in air travel after 911 was a good example.

Thanks for your comments.

bd

You're obviously knowledgeable about aviation so I find the disconnect between that knowledge and the comments/questions you've been making very confusing. How did you acquire that knowledge without also acquiring an understanding of the possible reasons why a landing might be rougher than normal or why a crew might not do a PA? Initially you stated that the pilot "decided to slam the nosewheel down" and now you're questioning why there wasn't a PA. In neither case were you actually there to witness and so you are relying completely on the impressions of your daughter. You've been told that it was an experienced, well-trained crew at the controls. Jazz maintains a high quality flight department with high standards so, personally, if I was going to doubt anyone in this scenario it would be the untrained observer in the cabin. She simply can't know what was going on in the flight deck. Even another Dash pilot in the cabin would be in the dark. The Jazz SOP likely recommends that a PA be done if possible but who knows what was going on, perhaps the tower controller had another a/c in final and needed them to takeoff immediately. In any case, it sure sounds to me that you've got a hate for Air Canada and Jazz that no amount of explanation from any of us will ever assuage.

[blues deville]

You're obviously knowledgeable about aviation so I find the disconnect between that knowledge and the comments/questions you've been making very confusing. How did you acquire that knowledge without also acquiring an understanding of the possible reasons why a landing might be rougher than normal or why a crew might not do a PA? Initially you stated that the pilot "decided to slam the nosewheel down" and now you're questioning why there wasn't a PA. In neither case were you actually there to witness and so you are relying completely on the impressions of your daughter. You've been told that it was an experienced, well-trained crew at the controls. Jazz maintains a high quality flight department with high standards so, personally, if I was going to doubt anyone in this scenario it would be the untrained observer in the cabin. She simply can't know what was going on in the flight deck. Even another Dash pilot in the cabin would be in the dark. The Jazz SOP likely recommends that a PA be done if possible but who knows what was going on, perhaps the tower controller had another a/c in final and needed them to takeoff immediately. In any case, it sure sounds to me that you've got a hate for Air Canada and Jazz that no amount of explanation from any of us will ever assuage.

For crying out loud give it rest.

Is it 'likely' that you know nothing about Jazz and their SOPs? In my little world, experienced well trained crews don't usually demonstrate the kind of flights my daughter was exposed to on Jazz, four days apart. All I really know is that AC now has a letter that will hopefully be addressed by their customer service department.

I am sure somewhere, someplace, sometime, you have purchased a product and have not been happy with it or possibly the customer service. That is the basis of my issue with these Jazz flights. I would prefer my family member fly to Sudbury rather than drive so I don't have any 'hate on' for AC/Jazz. I want her to fly again but I also want to make sure she is safe and treated properly. That sounds like a simple request right?

So unless you know exactely what is stated in their SOPs regarding my question about low speed RTOs,I really don't know why you keep chiming in with the same crap over and over.

Roger and out.

[Seeker]

I really don't know why you keep chiming in with the same crap over and over.

The same "crap"? Nice.

I have no doubt that if your letter to Air Canada was written with the same tone and self-entitled attitude you have displayed in this thread that it will be dealt with appropriately.

[thor]

For crying out loud give it rest.  

Is it 'likely' that you know nothing about Jazz and their SOPs? In my little world, experienced well trained crews don't usually demonstrate the kind of flights my daughter was exposed to on Jazz, four days apart. All I really know is that AC now has a letter that will hopefully be addressed by their customer service department.

I am sure somewhere, someplace, sometime, you have purchased a product and have not been happy with it or possibly the customer service. That is the basis of my issue with these Jazz flights. I would prefer my family member fly to Sudbury rather than drive so I don't have any 'hate on' for AC/Jazz. I want her to fly again but I also want to make sure she is safe and treated properly. That sounds like a simple request right?

So unless you know exactely what is stated in their SOPs regarding my question about low speed RTOs,I really don't know why you keep chiming in with the same crap over and over.

Roger and out.

Well, now, gentlemen, I think we're done.

[vanishing point]

Darn it! Just when I was going to step in and try to explain what the power fluctuations on departure were all about. I hate showing up after last call...

[blues deville]

Darn it! Just when I was going to step in and try to explain what the power fluctuations on departure were all about. I hate showing up after last call...

If you have something constructive to add, go for it. The flight in question was a July 4th 2030L departure YSB-YYZ.

Do you have some knowledge of this particular Jazz flight?

bd

[boestar]

I thought we were done here...

[blues deville]

I thought we were done here...

Apparently not. I guess some people just find this fascinating. Go figure.

bd

[vanishing point]

I don't know anything about the particular flight but the power fluctuation on start of t/o could have been the result of a t/o warning horn going off. The power levers activate the switch fairly quickly and if all the conditions aren't met, the horn sounds. We usually do a quick look to see why the horn is on (sometimes obvious, sometimes not). A couple of throws of the PL's is common if the issue isn't obvious.

I've had it go off and all the parameters appeared to be in the correct position. However, in one case, the horn sounded due to the flaps not quite being at 5° but they did appear to be on the flap position indicator. We cleared the runway, selected the flap to 10 and back to 5 and the needle showed in the proper position. In the original configuration, the needle was just touching the top of the white band (so appeared to be set correctly) but apparently the micro-switch wasn't made in the circuit.

As for the PA; we are required to do one. Perhaps the pilots didn't think they needed to or as mentioned, they may have gotten busy and forgot. I can't speculate on that. I'm sure they at least talked to the FA as that is mandatory.

Hope that clear things up a bit.

VP

[blues deville]

I don't know anything about the particular flight but the power fluctuation on start of t/o could have been the result of a t/o warning horn going off. The power levers activate the switch fairly quickly and if all the conditions aren't met, the horn sounds. We usually do a quick look to see why the horn is on (sometimes obvious, sometimes not). A couple of throws of the PL's is common if the issue isn't obvious.

I've had it go off and all the parameters appeared to be in the correct position. However, in one case, the horn sounded due to the flaps not quite being at 5° but they did appear to be on the flap position indicator. We cleared the runway, selected the flap to 10 and back to 5 and the needle showed in the proper position. In the original configuration, the needle was just touching the top of the white band (so appeared to be set correctly) but apparently the micro-switch wasn't made in the circuit.

As for the PA; we are required to do one. Perhaps the pilots didn't think they needed to or as mentioned, they may have gotten busy and forgot. I can't speculate on that. I'm sure they at least talked to the FA as that is mandatory.

Hope that clear things up a bit.

VP

Thanks VP for the detailed response.

My daughter told me her overall experience on Jazz was good and she wants to try flying with them again. I will relay your T/O scenario to her so she can see that is a common occurance and was handled safely on her flight.

bd

[Arctic Ace]

Wow. You assume an airplane is flown by an NFG who needs more "practice" or "training" because your 22 year old daughter sitting in the back who is not a pilot but is related to a couple of pilots didn't like the landing. Since when did we start judging the skill of a pilot by the landing. If the landing is centreline, straight, proper attitude and speed and in the touchdown zone then it is a good one. A firm touchdown is actually recommended by most manufacturers. Your comments regarding the landing your daughter experienced lead me to believe you are a pilot wannabe. You sure don't come across as the professional you claim to be.

[blues deville]

Wow. You assume an airplane is flown by an NFG who needs more "practice" or "training" because your 22 year old daughter sitting in the back who is not a pilot but is related to a couple of pilots didn't like the landing. Since when did we start judging the skill of a pilot by the landing. If the landing is centreline, straight, proper attitude and speed and in the touchdown zone then it is a good one. A firm touchdown is actually recommended by most manufacturers. Your comments regarding the landing your daughter experienced lead me to believe you are a pilot wannabe. You sure don't come across as the professional you claim to be.

Take a pill and relax. This has been beaten to death. If I recall correctly it was others who suggested the possibilty of a training flight.

At this point in my wannabe career I believe I have a good understanding of what a safe landing is all about but thanks for the review. A firm touchdown on the nose wheel has never been recommended on the types listed (DC3, DH6, DH8, EA32, DC8, B757, B767, B777) on any of my three ATPLs. I am pretty sure (and of course feel free to correct me) the normal practice is to fly the nosewheel smoothly on to the ground.

However, you may have a different technique.

bd

[vanishing point]

You're welcome, BD. Always happy to help out when I can. Good to hear your daughter will fly with us again. We always try to do our best and make folks happy. Sometimes it just doesn't work out that way...

[blues deville]

Not to be picky but any landing, firm or otherwise, of a DC3 on the "non existent" nose wheel would be spectacular.

You are correct Malcolm and very funny too. Technique slightly reversed on that machine. Might have ended my wannabe career before it even started.

It sure was a nice airplane to fly!

bd