Jumpy Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 I think it's the hump in the middle of the rumway that causes the slope rather than the difference in each. I took off yesterday morning from Ottawa,and took notice of the hump while taking off on 25 since we were fairly heavy and acceleration seemed slower than normal as we "climbed" the hill. I have to wonder how this played into the calculation in regard to JBI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest woxof Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 CADORS #: 2008O0253 Occurrence Time 2200 Z NAV CANADA staff at Montréal ACC reported that, due to extremely slippery conditions at Ottawa (M-CIA) (CYOW, four (4) aircraft diverted to other airports: ACA1221 diverted to Sudbury Municipal Airport (CYQB); EGF4097 diverted to Syracuse (Hancock International) Airport, NY (U.S.A.) (KSYR); ACA458 diverted to Montréal (PETIA) (CYUL); and ACA667 diverted to Toronto (LBPIA) (CYYZ). Ops. impact -- unknown. CADORS #: 2008O0258 Occurrence Time: 0400 Z The Westjet Airlines Inc. Boeing 737-76N aircraft (operating as flight WJA846) was concluding a scheduled IFR flight from Calgary International Airport (CYYC) to Ottawa (M-CIA) (CYOW). The aircraft reportedly landed long on runway 07 and ran off of the end of the runway an approximate distance of 100 feet in two (2) feet of snow. The aircraft appeared to be snow-bound with no observable damage. The passengers and crew were disembarked with no reported injuries. Runway 07/25 was NOTAMmed closed until the aircraft is removed (later in the morning). There was no reported damage to related navigation aids. The T.S.B. Duty Investigator was advised and are sending staff to the scene. NAV CANADA National Operations Centre advised. T.C. Ontario Region Duty Officer advised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicoChico Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Video on Global tonight shows the 737 in the snow off the end of 07. Looks like the gear might be bent? The engines are pretty well flush with the snow as well. This runway is an accident waiting to happen IMHO. Strong westerly winds aloft often create a long or fast landing. Combine that with a slick runway (which several pilots on another forum have reported) and you get an overrun. Chico Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RGT Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Yup.. I have seen as much 20 knts from the west at 500 feet. It can be kinda wild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blues deville Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 CADORS #: 2008O0253 Occurrence Time 2200 Z NAV CANADA staff at Montréal ACC reported that, due to extremely slippery conditions at Ottawa (M-CIA) (CYOW, four (4) aircraft diverted to other airports: ACA1221 diverted to Sudbury Municipal Airport (CYQB); EGF4097 diverted to Syracuse (Hancock International) Airport, NY (U.S.A.) (KSYR); ACA458 diverted to Montréal (PETIA) (CYUL); and ACA667 diverted to Toronto (LBPIA) (CYYZ). Ops. impact -- unknown. CADORS #: 2008O0258 Occurrence Time: 0400 Z The Westjet Airlines Inc. Boeing 737-76N aircraft (operating as flight WJA846) was concluding a scheduled IFR flight from Calgary International Airport (CYYC) to Ottawa (M-CIA) (CYOW). The aircraft reportedly landed long on runway 07 and ran off of the end of the runway an approximate distance of 100 feet in two (2) feet of snow. The aircraft appeared to be snow-bound with no observable damage. The passengers and crew were disembarked with no reported injuries. Runway 07/25 was NOTAMmed closed until the aircraft is removed (later in the morning). There was no reported damage to related navigation aids. The T.S.B. Duty Investigator was advised and are sending staff to the scene. NAV CANADA National Operations Centre advised. T.C. Ontario Region Duty Officer advised. What is Westjet's minimum CRFI for landing? It appears everyone else got out of Dodge around that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Good morning everyone. First things first, we will need to wait for the investigation. CADORs are a first impression level info source. That said, CRFI reports are notorious for their short shelf life and Canada has a history of producing overruns where the CRFI given out on approach was much better than the one taken immediately after the incident. I expect this data is already in the hands of the investigators. Anyone who regularly operates into YOW has seen the destablising effects of the high tailwind on approach. My tendency here would be to cut this crew some slack and let the TSB do its work. My thoughts are with them and their families. Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Runway maintenance this winter has been the WORST I have seen. Particularly in Toronto and Ottawa, the respective Airport Authorities should be held accountable. To busy turning the terminal buildings, into shopping centers. It was just a matter of time until some poor crew found themselves off a runway. Ottawa with the persistent usage of 07/25, verse, the longer 14/32. The never ending tailwinds on the ILS 07. Operating Backcourse Localizer approaches, to minimums, in the Nations Capital. Best wishes to Westjet! Believe me, it could have been any one of us!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RFL Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 What is Westjet's minimum CRFI for landing? It appears everyone else got out of Dodge around that time. blues deville; According to the report there was a 6 hour difference between the diversions and the Westjet landing. Conditions can change in 6 hours. Some airports can even clear and treat a runway properly in that length of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicoChico Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 RFL, Conditions CAN change but the evidence seems to indicate, on this night, they didn't. Chico Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Chico, to be fair, runway conditions can change quite a bit even when the weather reports stay the same. Apart from the obvious, continuous snow or freezing rain effects, even the rising or setting of the sun, a runway maintenance action, effects of landing aircraft, etc, etc can seriously change a runway's friction. The worst is when a CRFI report is left in the system after a runway sweep. Bad news. Of course, there is the infamous averaged CRFI, where a general report of 0.40 hides the fact that part of the runway may be a lot worse, while some is a lot better. You get to find out which is which after touchdown. FWIW Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 I think Chico's point is that the fact that the aircraft departed the runway proves that conditions were not suitable for landing. I don't mean that in an accusing way and certainly don't claim that my skill or decision-making ability is superior to this crew's. Whether the conditions improved or deteriorated is not the point - when this crew landed they were not suitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Got to love the quote from the Westjet Spokesman. Aircraft don't normally skid off a runway, said WestJet spokesman Richard Bartrem. "It's certainly very rare," Bartrem said Monday. All on board Flight 846 were taken by bus to the terminal a couple of hours after the bumpy landing where they were greeted by loved ones. http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/ArticleDi...y.aspx?e=907329 When you consider this Web Posted: 2/1/2008 5:35:24 PM No one was injured and no one was in danger Friday afternoon when a Westjet aircraft got stuck in the snow on the side of a runway at Thunder Bay International Airport after attempting a U-turn. The mishap caused several other flights to be delayed and left about 100 passengers and crew stranded on the plane for over an hour. The incident happened sometime after 3 p.m. on a B-737 flight which had just arrived from Toronto. Airport manager Scott McFadden says the aircraft was attempting a slow speed U-turn on its way to the gate when it hit some ice on the edge of a runway that caused it to slide and become stuck in a snow bank. Of course the best thing is that no one was injured in either incident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 2nd picture from YOW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Hey, looking at the pictures I just figured out why they went off the end - the flaps aren't down! (I'm thinking I might have a future as a investigative journalist!) Just for the record - this is a joke about reporters and not about my fellow airline industry workers at Westjet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted February 19, 2008 Share Posted February 19, 2008 Hey, looking at the pictures I just figured out why they went off the end - the flaps aren't down! (I'm thinking I might have a future as a investigative journalist!) I wonder if the flight crew participated in the dig out as they evidently do in Cabin Grooming or were they exempt?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Yup, them engines definitely look flat on the bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 I wonder if the flight crew participated in the dig out as they evidently do in Cabin Grooming or were they exempt?? They groomed after the evacuation. They are good Westjetters after all! Mitch, it takes a lot more than a piddly snowbank to hurt a Boeing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 So is the aircraft back in service or still undergoing checks??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModerateChop Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 I think Chico's point is that the fact that the aircraft departed the runway proves that conditions were not suitable for landing. I don't mean that in an accusing way and certainly don't claim that my skill or decision-making ability is superior to this crew's. Whether the conditions improved or deteriorated is not the point - when this crew landed they were not suitable. According to Flight Aware these were the YOW arrivals (landing time) Sunday night. ACA2458 A319 Pierre Elliott Trudeau Int'l (CYUL) Sun 23:38 EST ACA470 E190 Lester B Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Sun 23:35 EST ACA468 A320 Lester B Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Sun 23:28 EST AWI3662 CRJ2 Philadelphia Intl (KPHL) Sun 23:21 EST XALNK LJ24 Nashville Intl (KBNA) Sun 23:14 EST WJA846 B737 Calgary Int'l (CYYC) 23:05 EST ACA138 A320 Vancouver Intl (CYVR) Sun 23:04 EST ACA466 E170 Lester B Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Sun 22:46 EST FLG2881 CRJ2 Detroit Metro Wayne Co (KDTW) Sun 22:28 EST ACA124 E190 Calgary Int'l (CYYC) Sun 22:21 EST SKK924 B190 Lester B Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Sun 22:21 EST JZA8854 CRJ9 Lester B Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Sun 22:18 EST BTA2980 E135 Cleveland-Hopkins Intl (KCLE) Sun 22:08 EST N528QS GLF5 Laurence G Hanscom Fld (KBED) Sun 22:01 EST JZA7735 CRJ1 La Guardia (KLGA) Sun 21:57 EST ACA1221 XXXX Quebec/Jean Lesage Intl (CYQB) GMT Sun 21:49 EST SKW6748 CRJ7 Chicago O'Hare Intl (KORD) Sun 21:46 EST ACA679 E190 Pierre Elliott Trudeau Int'l (CYUL) Sun 21:42 EST ACA677 E170 Lester B Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Sun 21:35 EST JZA8613 CRJ2 Halifax Int'l (CYHZ) Sun 21:28 EST BTA2759 E135 Newark Liberty Intl (KEWR) Sun 21:21 EST FAB91 B722 Iqaluit (CYFB) Sun 21:03 EST ACA462 A321 Lester B Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Sun 21:01 EST WJA552 B737 Lester B Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Sun 20:55 EST JZA8983 DH8A Pierre Elliott Trudeau Int'l (CYUL) Sun 20:49 EST JZA8979 DH8C Pierre Elliott Trudeau Int'l (CYUL) Sun 20:44 EST JZA7848 DH8A Hamilton (CYHM) Sun 20:41 EST JZA7090 CRJ2 Pierre Elliott Trudeau Int'l (CYUL) Sun 20:35 EST ACA484 E190 Lester B Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Sun 20:27 EST AWI3732 CRJ2 Philadelphia Intl (KPHL) Sun 20:04 EST ACA143 A320 Pierre Elliott Trudeau Int'l (CYUL) Sun 19:51 EST JZA7659 CRJ1 Washington Dulles Intl (KIAD) Sun 19:45 EST POE259 DH8D Toronto/City Centre (CYTZ) Sun 19:42 EST SKK924 B190 Lester B Pearson Int'l (CYYZ) Sun 19:38 EST ACA1145 A320 Pierre Elliott Trudeau Int'l (CYUL) EST Sun 19:36 EST EGF97 E135 Syracuse Hancock Intl (KSYR) Sun 19:31 EST 3 of the 4 flights that were listed in that 2200Z CADORS report that diverted actually returned to YOW and landed before WJA846. Perhaps some of you that are so quick to bash the airport authority and runway condition should wait for the FACTS. MC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted February 20, 2008 Share Posted February 20, 2008 Perhaps some of you that are so quick to bash the airport authority and runway condition should wait for the FACTS. Professional interest dictates otherwise. As it was when BA038 landed short, airmen all over the world and especially those flying the type were greatly interested in why two engines would lose power simultaneously. Runway overruns, as we are aware, are the result of many disparate factors and not just handling issues. Informed speculation is not criticism as we know and pilots will do it here, on PPRuNe, on AvWeb and over a coffee or a beer because they are extremely curious about what happened so they can learn how to prevent reoccurence. That is what FDA Programs are all about - providing information on trends, like long landings, before they turn into an incident. The weather was poor but not that poor that other aircraft didn't return to land at Ottawa, (I'd be interested in knowing what runway they were using after the overrun and what the wind and runway conditions were). Along with the wind information on the approach and along the runway as recorded by the aircraft's DFDR and QAR, it is equally important to know what the CRFI was, when it was taken and what the runway contamination treatments were, if any. Those are facts to be established by the formal investigation and are not part of speculation. I think the thread on braking and reverse is an excellent discussion and is what this forum excels at, providing the media don't come along and snip quotes "from an online forum", (which is the laziest, most unreliable and unethical journalism one can imagine). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arctic Ace Posted February 22, 2008 Share Posted February 22, 2008 I'd also be interested to know what information was passed to the crew. I've personally experienced on occasion - not in Ottawa - but other locations a very nonchalant attitude regarding runway condition reports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yul07 Posted February 26, 2008 Share Posted February 26, 2008 Pax eye view of the flight and over run: http://www.airliners.net/discussions/trip_...ad.main/120617/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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