I think it is finally over

[CAT3DUAL]

Now Kip, you got me smiling if you feel that I don't know you and what you are about. You most certainly don't know me and my past. I'm not going to get into tit for tat argument with you, I think you would be shocked to how similar our logbooks are, actually, think mine's better seen more war zones. (Angola, Rawanda, Kuwait, Iraq) And did it all on Civy street. You're reaction speaks volumes about you, and I'm afraid I took a shot in the dark, and hit a bullseye' and you don't like it.

As far as going over to the ACPA forum, what's that, where's that, sorry you got me on that one. I'm long past this issue and moved on, hell I haven't been on the OAC forum in months, same old crap I'm sure you find on the ACAP site.

[Check Pilot]

How about everybody just quit this loooooong string of vitriolic BS that took place a long time ago.

It's all over. IT HAS BEEN FOR A LONG TIME, AND I'M AN OUTSIDER TO BOOT. So. Stop it now ferchrists sake.

Ah'm still honoured that I still have an opportunity to post the odd joke here, but this lunacy stuff with you ACPA/ALPA/CALPA or other alphabet group has to STOP.

You dumb asses - all of you- that just have to go at it about the past when AC and CP had to merge and now go on about it again are.....

I'll let you fill in the words.

Now - can you just shut UP. Just get your asses in the aeroplane and get it up and down like everyone expects you to do. YA BUNCH OF SPOILED KIDS FER CHRISSAKES

PS - I'm not a member of any of this, but I do care.-

Now get on with flying aeroplanes. Please.

[deicer]

The best part of all this, is the inevitable NEXT MERGER. 

Really doesn't matter any more either way, just doing the job with people I like, but let's get the language correct at least.

Wasn't a 'merger'.

Was a "TAKEOVER"

Thank you very much.

Iceman

[Vsplat]

Hey CP.

Two ways to look at this as an outsider.

1) Decide that everyone involved is a spoiled brat, or

2) Ask yourself why you don't understand the emotion level.

The impact on these events is not over. There are pilots whose positions degraded so radically, their life plan changed so much from what they expected, that it broke them. I'm one of the lucky ones in this, my lot in life is pretty much on the curve I planned. But I understand and respect the experience of those who took this thing full force.

So now, place the following comment

"Now - can you just shut UP. Just get your asses in the aeroplane and get it up and down like everyone expects you to do. YA BUNCH OF SPOILED KIDS FER CHRISSAKES"

into the ears of a pilot who is either still out of the workplace or barely there due to this fight, and try to understand how cruel it just might sound.

You are very fortunate to work (have worked, I don't know if you've retired yet) in a stable, federal system where seniority didn't matter. Even yet, I seem to recall a lot of pretty agitated discussions from the AOGA/CFPA reps about their sorry lot in life. How's SMS going down?

Every place has its irritants. I strongly suggest you not pound on this nerve.

For your consideration.

Vs

[handyman]

Looks like nothing has changed here in the several months I have been away.

Kip...you did nothing wrong!

[Mitch Cronin]

Hey Handyman... Welcome back.

Nope, as you can see... same old, same old.

[Kip Powick]

in the several months I have been away

Where was rehab this time ?

[Johnny]

A reasoned post, Vs. Although, I can't let this one slip by;

The impact on these events is not over. There are pilots whose positions degraded so radically, their life plan changed so much from what they expected, that it broke them.

If (?) there are OAC Pilots that have had their life ruined to the extent you mention, and blame it on the Seniority integration, they are wrong.

1. They immediately planned their life on the Mitchnick award.

(I've had post 95 hire guys explain to me that they have been robbed of their 767 Captaincy.)

Bought houses, took out large mortgages, financial Planning, Pilot style.

2. Or, have 10 kids, elect to fly as an R/P, when he could be a moderately Senior A-320 Captain.

Take a year off on a "Section Eight," for "Merger Related Stress Disorder."

3. Blame the worlds ills, 911, SARS, CCAA on the Merger / Seniority Integration.

....insert Daggers comments here.

Sorry Vs, I just don't buy it.

[handyman]

Hey Handyman... Welcome back.

Nope, as you can see... same old, same old.

Thanks Mitch...yup, not much except they refunded my membership. So this place is now free?

Hey Kip...it didn't take...I'm back off the AEF wagon!

[Check Pilot]

Vs,

Thanks for your words. I appreciate your method of giving me a chastising in the way you did. I probably deserve it.

There are points in life that we all reach that make it or break it for us. You are right when you say that I don't understand the emotion level, even though I have met and worked with a lot of the folks in the business of herding big aeroplanes across the country and around the world. Many moons ago I taught some of the folks here on this forum how to do the basics of aviation so maybe there is a bit of me in a few of the pilots here on the board.

But, knowing the struggle that all of the guys went through to get where they are now, I understand how hard things can be when one company merges with another company.

Because of our nature, we as a group of experienced professionals will pick out inequalities between us.

As pilots, we are a fiercely competitive bunch. We have to be or we would not be doing what we do for a living. That goes on, not just on the flight deck, but in life in general for a whole bunch of us. Thus, as I read this thread, I see the old scars of the past drawn out again because of that mindset. It's normal for us as a group, to do that. I just don't like seeing the old scabs being picked off again to reveal a fresh scar.

From what I'm reading, it seems the vitriolic bitterness will never go away until we have all gone to room temperature and the "new" bunch is sitting in the seats so many of us still occupy.

I only ask that this stuff be put behind now. It's over with. Life is what it is now.

As to AOGA/CFPA and SMS for me, I make it what it is. Frankly, I like what is happening with the SMS business now. It's long overdue. The whole system is going to be shaken to the ground and reborn in a new whole new way and I am looking happily forward to it all changing. When it is finally integrated into the world of aviation, it's going to make for a superbly better approach to our regulatory system and hopefully, much safer.

It will finally end the "us versus them" mentality that has been so pervasive for far too long. Unlike what you have been told by some of my peers in the CFPA it's not doom and gloom for me. I've been around way too long to let the petty junk that happens day to day to get to me any more.

So, yeah, I didn't want to pound on the nerve of merger, and for that I apologize. Might it be possible to put it all behind now though and make for a better future?

[moeman]

There are pilots whose positions degraded so radically, their life plan changed so much from what they expected, that it broke them.

That's one thing I could never understand about this whole thing. Why is it that pilots, more than anybody else I know in this industry, have their career plans and financial expectations plotted out from day 1 to retirement and anything that negatively affects that career plan throws their entire lives into disarray? Almost seems like they've spent their fortunes before they've made them. Seems to me that this is what angers many OAC pilots the most. They had a career path and financial goals all planned out based on certain assumptions being made, and now that those assumptions have been taken away, it's the end of the world. There's no bright side to any of this (unlike most other groups that took pay cuts, face a longer wait until retirement because of it, and perhaps suffered a loss of bidding rights due to the merger and now have worse working conditions than they had 10 years ago), pilots only seem to see that their "theoretical" career path and "perfect world" financial goals were altered. And that pisses them off more than anything else. Take away the pay cuts and changes in working conditions and anything else that we all took to one extent or another, and what it comes down to is that they're mad at their crystal ball for being wrong.

Maybe it's just a pilot thing, but it seems odd to me .

[Guest rattler]

Not limited to pilots. It is the old "I'm a member of a Union now" culture where being a Union member was seen as having (at least in most industries) a preprogrammed path that included guaranteed benefits and of course planned / guaranteed raises in pay / position. Those who are employees of "Public funded enterprises" continue to enjoy this certitude.

Of course AC employees lost this when the status of the company changed but for some "working for AirCanada" had the same protection in their eyes and the harsh reality of this new world was perhaps harder for them to accept than workers at other companies.

.

[moeman]

True. It probably has a lot to do with the exponential increase in salaries that pilots can expect when upgrading to bigger metal that makes it seem like more was taken away. For the rest of us, the raises were more linear and when taken away didn't seem like such a huge deal. Also, I don't know anybody in my department that was counting on making X dollars 20 years from now and feels that THAT was taken away. It's the more immediate stuff that was of concern.

So.......we've all heard the counting your chickens thing, haven't we? You may have planned or counted on receiving certain things in life, but if they weren't really yours yet, was anything actually taken away? Nothing's guaranteed, and maybe that's what is so hard to accept. Pilots seem to have spent their earnings, or at least had more concrete plans based on how much more they were going to make by a certain point in their careers than other employee groups. But whose fault is it if you got yourself so excited by a career path that is theoretical, nothing more, and you ended up having your hopes and dreams dashed in the end?

All the other groups took hits, one way or another. Pilots took a lot more in many ways. We have all had to make changes to our lifestyles and/or life or career expectations. But no other group seems to be saying things like

their life plan changed so much from what they expected, that it broke them

, and that's what I find so interesting.

[Kip Powick]

Maybe it's just a pilot thing

It’s a pilot thing………… yes it is…..Being in the pointy end is the supreme ego trip for all of us…at one point in one’s aviation career……….. but as time moves on one tends to mellow out and realize it is a job, a job that one was fortunate enough to acquire, through whatever means, but in reality, just a job and a good job. Pilots feel they are very “special” because they are working in a three-dimensional work place and let’s face it, not everybody can do that. In many a pilot’s mind, only the best are able to work in such an environment, mere mortals can drive cars, engineer a train, and skipper a boat, but that is all two dimensional work. Only those that feel they have been “chosen from the multitudes” to grace a cockpit with their presence are good enough to step above mere earthlings and become pilots and yea…the epitome is that left seat, to be called “Sir” and “Captain” and feel and think the world revolves around you, the person with the straight teeth and crooked smile, that sly grin, those clear blue-sky eyes, hands of a surgeon,…….the dream of every single and married woman in the world…for you are a Captain and a pilot ….( trumpets blare here)..

Yeh, there are still a lot of them around, some on this forum, who when after finally acquiring their wings, start to dream of the next step for they have a plan and woe to anyone who even thinks of changing that plan…for it is their right to expect the normal progression of those before them…come hell or high water and …well… even mergers. They were told that they skies the limit and their plan for the future is unstoppable and they are “entitled” to go forth in the same manner as their forefathers…and then reality bites.

There are many of this group still in the aviation industry, perhaps some on this forum…who knows…?... and it is an uncomplimentary trait that some are reluctant to break away from. In aviation parlance they are known as certified members of PIG…(Pilots-Inflexible-Group).

Over the years their membership has declined as a younger group of aviators have come forth and have seen the havoc an inflexible attitude can do to the workplace and the industry. I would expect that in about a decade or so the PIG force will have their numbers culled by natural causes, most often stress, and prostate problems, and once again, peace will smother the aviation community…..until another wet-behind-the-ears-egotistical aviator comes forth to declare that he has been “chosen” and his path is destined and he will not tolerate interference…and then the whole damned cycle starts again.

[John S.]

. . . The impact on these events is not over.  There are pilots whose positions degraded so radically, their life plan changed so much from what they expected, that it broke them.  . . . . .

Take a moment and to to THIS WEBSITE.

Click on

"Click Here to Start the Presentation" then

"Mitchnick Award" and then

"Click to view Animation".

Which dot is the pilot "whose positions degraded so radically, their life plan changed so much from what they expected, that it broke them"?

Can you back up your rhetoric with some facts?

Please?

[Homerun]

The point illustrated in that presentation is retirement percentage. Since the CAIL group made the total pilot group larger by about 50% and they were generally substantially older, they will make little difference to the absolute retirement number of a majority of the OAC. All OAC who retire near or at the same absolute number as they would have absent the merger, will be higher up the list on a percentage basis because of the increased size of the group. This is purely a demographic effect. Lordon ruled demographics inadmissable as a guiding principle in D183.

The damage is being done in the 2003-2013 timeframe, not the year the OAC retire.

[skyline]

Gentlemen please… I would like to think that we would never screw our fellow pilots but in reality, we will protect our careers and families at all costs. This is the new world we live in which has become “nasty” for lack of a better word. So I don’t care if you are CP, PW, AC, OAC or Jazz. We are sometimes forced to roll the dice, sometimes we win sometimes we loose.

It is my belief (some of the financial gurus can put another spin on it if you choose too) that both Canadian and AC were heading in the same direction to financial bankruptcy. Lets be honest, we at AC have never really made money flying passengers, only to reducing our losses. Canadian could never get their act together after buying over inflated companies and mismanagement.

Lets get on with our futures, as there is going to be even bigger changes in our lives with the upcoming contracts. The vultures are stretching their wings waiting for road kill 2009.

[Johnny]

Moeman, or should we call you Dr Phil, you certainly have Pilots figured out.

Here lies the facts of what...truly...happened.

Certain individuals went on a spending spree, based on money (and positions) they did not have.

Or, held those positions for a brief time.

eg. Hold a Captaincy (on paper) expecting to be trained in a years time.

Start living the high life...now.

Something (anything) changes, and holly crap...but....but....but.

Pilot financial planning 101;

1. Buy High, Sell Low, Make it up on volume.

2. If it Fly's, Floats, or (third 'F') ...rent it.

[RFL]

Kip is guilty of telling the truth. It appears that some people cannot handle that.

[AIP]

Kip is guilty of telling the truth. It appears that some people cannot handle that.

As an innocent bystander of course.

The whole "don't shoot the messenger" crap is pretty weak though.

[Guest JMA Luc Savoie]

I have one comment before going back to lurking status.

Kip, I believe you were wrong in posting what you did.

Apart from being a place where many can share information about aviation, one of the reasons why this forum – as a matter of fact, why any aviation forum - is frequented is because it is somewhat convivial, i.e. you don’t come here to be insulted, demeaned or ridiculed. I am not saying you did any of these things; rather, what you did was more insidious. Indeed, I believe that what you did amounted to gathering the kindling, fuel and matches, and leaving all for those who would readily light the ire – and guess what? They did.

You, as a former CP pilot, cannot claim innocence. In fact, any reasonable AC/CP pilot posting what you did had to know that there would be emotional and strident responses. By stating anything different, you either want us to believe that you’re not intelligent, or that we’re not. I don’t think the former is correct, and as to the latter, well, I’ll leave it to each of us to form its own opinion… I don’t deny you the right to have a biased opinion on this subject (like the rest of us...); it’s just that as someone who is taking sides, you cannot claim to be just a messenger.

Therefore, next time you want to inform all of us about a hyper-sensitive issue such as the seniority debate, please think longer and harder about what it will do to this forum, before hitting the send button. If you know in your heart that the debate / comments are probably not going to be positive – and in this case, we can agree that it was quite negative, then, why do it? Why risk making this forum a place to be avoided because of the vitriolic exchanges?

Back to lurking.

[Kip Powick]

it’s just that as someone who is taking sides,

And I repeat......where in the initial post did I infer which side I was on....Do you think a "newcomer" to the forum would know, by reading my initial post where I came from. You are making an assumption that because I was CP and you know that fact that I am taking sides...where in the initial post is there any such emotion?

Gee, golly...there didn't seem to be any..."sorry about your feelings" when MM was posted on the old AC forum...was there??

Therefore, next time you want to inform all of us about a hyper-sensitive issue such as the seniority debate, please think longer and harder about what it will do to this forum, before hitting the send button. If you know in your heart that the debate / comments are probably not going to be positive – and in this case, we can agree that it was quite negative, then, why do it? Why risk making this forum a place to be avoided because of the vitriolic exchanges?

So other topics that are very emotional...you know some folks take religion very seriously ...........but I don't see anyone jumping in and saying..."hey let's not discuss that...it is too emotional."

You know what Luc......the only guys who are taking my initial posting as a personal insult and viewing it as a "negative" posting are all OAC guys and do you not think that perhaps they should just get over it and not waste time lecturing me as to what topics are acceptable and what topics are no-no posting material. They lost that battle ...you have to vent....so vent at me...cause I posted a factoid. Does it really bother you that much that a retiree posted information that is considered by many as interesting and finally .......your comment about vitriolic exchanges, with respect to my dialogue, be best directed at some of your OAC peers on this forum.

[Guest floatrrr]

So...the fact that we didn't offer DOH to CRA, but, advocated for DOH with Air Canada makes us hypocrites? 

If you can't figure that out on your own, time to kick the Meth habit. 

"

Verses...lets see.  Declare a Merger, don't like the outcome, run away from CALPA,  get sued, pay legal bills for years....

Held up by anybody with half a brain, as "what not to do."

The best part of all this, is the inevitable NEXT MERGER. 

It will be pure entertainment to see what method ACPA supports.

"So...the fact that we didn't offer DOH to CRA, but, advocated for DOH with Air Canada makes us hypocrites? "

Why yes, yes it does.

"The deal between CAIL and CRA was a work of art, held up by (US) ALPA as a model agreement."

Yea, work of art alright. It alienated everyone on the seniority list post 1997. Yea, real work of art, if you were pre 97 seniority.

You ex CP elite are no different than your ACPA counterpart. The regionals are still Shyte, they are second rate and are not subject to the same rules you are, of course that's how you feel now that you are at the big boys isn't it.

If all of you mainline guys with that attitude get screwed then there is some justice to it all.

GAG!

[Guest floatrrr]

O/K Dozerboy, you're losing it buddy.

Time to Call:

1-800-GO GDIPP.

CAIL should have given the CRA Pilots DOH...right.

That's just the way Air Canada Pilots have treated their Regionals.

Oh, sorry, somehow it is different.

The "Mainline - Regional" relationship was a 1000 times better at Canadi>n, than they have EVER been at Air Canada.

You must be one of the; "I quit CRA, to join Air Canada" club?

Big GLUE sale at Walmart was there?

Talk to some of the guys who were at the regionals then that are still there how much better the relationship was.

[mo32a]

Wow - still all the vitriol after all this time.

As a outsider I can't imagine living my life in such turmoil.

Surely it is long past time to accept your lumps or your benefits and move on, don't whine about the lumps you took or crow about the benefit you received.

Enjoy what you do have and quit fretting about what might have been or should have been - it isn't!

Life is too short to surround yourself with vexatious people and bellyache about things you can't change. If you find your position in life is so untenable in your present situation find something else to do that is more fitting or satisfying.

Just after the merger it was difficult to make up foursomes for golf because the red guys wouldn't play with the blue guys and vice versa.

Now that most of them are retired they are just one more "dot" (to use Kips expression) nobody is calling them Captain or Sir anymore, they soon realize that it really doesn't matter, and the guy you are playing with is just another buddy, friend, or aquaintance and nobody cares what "team" he was on.