I think it is finally over

[dozerboy]

Enjoy your super seniority Wonderboy!!! I bet your last name is the same as a retired CP driver.

[Guest floatrrr]

O/K boys, you two can twist it with innuendo. Neither one of you seem to have a grasp of the facts.

Just your imaginary version of what shudd'a, cudd'a happened.

I haven't twisted anything. The facts are you screwed the post 97 guys with your agreement. If you need proof, ask some of the guys that were screwed by it, and see if it's imaginary or not for yourself. Now you are far enough removed from the day, that you can pretend it was fair in your own mind to make your little self feel better. Like I said, whatever it takes so you can sleep.

[mo32a]

Kip - I think you are going to have to retitle the thread!!

[Kip Powick]

Kip - I think you are going to have to retitle the thread!!

Yeh...maybe I should have inserted.."legally" in the Header

[skyline]

This only shows that anything other than date of hire will cause chaos. This has been a theory amongst arbitrators for quite some time.

Buy or merge two companies = Date of hire. Company goes out of business with employees on the street = bottom of list. I don’t like the theory but look at what is happening.

[Guest floatrrr]

Man, your rebuttal is pathetic...

I was there and heavily involved at the time - where do you get off saying it wasn't so?

What's your stake in all this anyhow - an embittered ex Red Connector who missed the LOU 18 train? I'm guessing you weren't at CRA 11 years ago. Or perhaps back then you were still running around your parents yard with gummybears in your pocket and a model airplane in your hand? Ahhh, the good old days...

Whatever...

Talk about a pathetic rebuttal.

Lies, all lies.

[Homerun]

Me thinks it's the seniority sytem that causes the chaos!

[RussD]

O/K boys, you two can twist it with innuendo.  Neither one of you seem to have a grasp of the facts.

Just your imaginary version of what shudd'a, cudd'a happened.

Johnny,

For God's sakes you can't expect anyone to believe that your group would have been satisfied with the treatment that you bestowed on CRA if AC tried to bestow the same on you. How freeking stupid do you think people are man???

If, after AC bought your company they insisted no merger of operations would occur, rather the scope/flowthru model, you embrase, would be the flavor de jour, your gang would have gone insane,, no question and rightly so. Infact I'm surpised the lunatic fringe didn't try that one on..... Grandfather the big birds to you CP'ers till they fall apart, after that you boys can be the narrow body experts (classic 73's only of course). The good news is that you can then apply to AC to be be hired (BOTL of course) to fly the new narrow bodies and the big birds and that and a certain percenatge will actuall be hired. Sweet.

AC aquired my company in a newly deregulated industry and replaced the Government regulation with a labor cap that was far more restrictive than the CTA ever dreamt about and profferred an interview in trade. Your team did essentially the same.

I am the first to admit to a bias against the ACPA and it's reason to be. That bias doesn't extend to individuals who work there. Some of the finest on the planet do. However what happened laborwise in the past between AC and it's aquisitions, and Canadian and it's aquisitions, is no more acceptable than it would have been if AC tried it on it's latest aquistion. No question. Your too smart not to know that.

[Vsplat]

So here we are on page 6.

Still think it's finally over?

It is amazing to me, reading all of these posts, that those who claim expertise on the minds of pilots, their level of inflexibility, etc. would then claim the defence of ignorance for their actions (and no, Kip, it is not just you). It is also instructive to see just how much opinion is offered up as though it were fact.

Here is my opinion. I do not offer it as fact. To me, this fight never was about fairness. It was about winning. Domination over another group. And all of the base, mean-spirited digs, reminders and attacks are simply one group's way of either spraying its scent on the territority or flipping the bird of defiance.

Witness Ireland or Palestine. A group that perceives injustice will fight back. The more the winner asserts their victory, the lower the cost to the losers for fighting. The perpetual motion machine.

I have said this before. The Mitchnick fence was unfair. The Keller correction was unfair. The push back from ACPA against Keller can be compared to the ALPA pushback against Mitchnick. The only difference is duration. I would wager that a sunset clause on Keller such that the 'Mitchnick effect' was offset equally but not over-corrected would end this fight today. But then, it wouldn't be 'winning', would it?

It may be that the court challenges are over. Frankly, it is irrelevant whether or not that is true. Ten years from now, post this same message and you will likely get another 6 pages of vitriol. And the fight will be renewed among those who need to work together. And that would be bad for us all.

Vs

[deicer]

So here we are on page 6.

Still think it's finally over?

It won't be over until the last original red and blue members are dead.

Gonna make fore some ugly scenes in the ole' folks home.

Iceman

[Jaydee]

The blue mantra....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMVzfBNB9RA

[Kip Powick]

I have said this before. The Mitchnick fence was unfair

It is unfortunate that we do not have all the quotes from the old ACPA forum.... I recall an OAC individual posting a comment, soon after MM came out, that had this phrase in it,

"Wow, we dodged a bullet there, didn't we? Well someone has to win"

In my mind that is "flipping the bird and spraying your territory" I don't think you will find any comment in this thread that comes close to that sentiment.

I have said this before. The Mitchnick fence was unfair

I certainly won't argue that you did, or did not say that but, as I recall, I did not see that type of opinion posted on any forum nor did I actually talk to anyone, (OAC), who voiced that opinion.

What you think now, or then, and what I thought then, and what I think now, is not relevant to the issue. The legal routes were followed and unless you or I were on the merger committee of one group or another, you and I had nothing to do with what went on behind the scenes.

The really sad part of this entire issue is that there are no winners...everyone looses, but there will always be some people who can't see that point because of their skewed perception of what is justice for their own personal position.

What I really find disconcerting is the fact that persons come on this forum and, with the cloak of anonimity, spew out venomus postings yet those same persons will not put up one posting on the ACPA forum.....in fact, only one OAC pilot put up a comment on the ACPA forum ......but you and I know that did not happen on the pure RED forum and if you must know what was on the BLUE forum...............every posting, of which there was about 12 merely passed on their thanks to the merger group and stated, in so many words, lets get on with our lives and work toward 2009.

In the end, life goes on and life is just too short to have it be filled with unrelenting bile until the end of ones time .............but that is JMO.

Have a good week.

[Johnny]

Russ D:

Grandfather the big birds to you CP'ers till they fall apart, after that you boys can be the narrow body experts (classic 73's only of course).

To a certain extent, this was tried. It was a little Airline called "Zip" that was seen in certain circles as a "Blue Ghetto," post Mitchnick sodomizing.

The good news is that you can then apply to AC to be be hired (BOTL of course) to fly the new narrow bodies and the big birds and that and a certain percenatge will actuall be hired. Sweet.

I have no doubt that the OAC side;

... thought of, would have done, had wet-dreams about, every permutation.

They would have a 747-400 Captain, junior to a R/J F/O, if they could have had their way.

No surprises Russ, we learned pretty quick what we were up against.

It is amusing how we are micro-analyzing the CAIL - CRA relationship, with NO correlation between Air Canada and Jazz. Lets turn back the clock to 1987 and the formation of CAIL and the start of "Scope." Scope was the norm for all Major Airlines, in the US and subsequently in Canada.

Both A/C and Canadi>n were on the Scope bandwagon. A/C had there LOU 18 (?) move-up, Canadi>n followed with their version.

To sit here now, 20 years later, and claim Canadi>n miss-treated THEIR regionals, is a bit of a stretch.

Right or wrong, it is the road we (and everyone else) traveled.

Vs:

So here we are on page 6.

Still think it's finally over?

A number of the pages are dedicated to the never ending, "Mainline - Regional" fight. But, you are right, it will never be over for some.

However, from the title of the thread, it is over legally.

As for the "Mitchnick effect" on the Keller list. I know we've had that discussion?

Remove the "Mitchnick effect" (from the Keller list) and you have the "Mitchnick List."

No further debate on that one, it's a none starter.

All considered, it is no wonder as Pilot's a large number of us are earning car salesman wages.

A B-777 Captain would be earning 500k / year if his skills were on the open market.

But, we all choose to live handcuffed to our respective Seniority List and forced to fight it out.

[CAT3DUAL]

"A B-777 Captain would be earning 500k / year if his skills were on the open market."

Please!! Do tell where one may find this job?

[Vsplat]

Kip, I tried.

I posted, in my most recent addition as well as my initial question, to deal with both sides. Your response was to take a partial quote regarding Mitchnick and include it twice in your post, add a number of comments critical of the 'red' side and generally favorable of the 'blue', and, though you said you would not argue with me about what I said, went right ahead and did just that.

I find it impossible to believe that you posted what you have here without bias or agenda.

Vs

[Johnny]

Just my imagination working overtime.

Imagine Air Canada completing with the Emirates, Cathay etc. for qualified Widebody Captains.

What's an A-scale Cathay 747-400 Skipper earning?

I have a rough guess, I think it's a tap more than a A/C 777 Captain.

How many professions, that at age 50, with a log-book full of experience, you are forced to start over if you want to change employers?

But, we'd all have to stand together and eradicate the Seniority System.

....right!

Anyways, that's it for me on the debate.

Have a Merry Christmas

[CAT3DUAL]

Vsplat;

"I find it impossible to believe that you posted what you have here without bias or agenda."

You've just figured that out.

Johnny;

"But, we'd all have to stand together and eradicate the Seniority System."

We can only dream, I've always advocated a status pay type of seniority system for a number of reasons, but that is topic for a whole new thread.

[John S.]

.... I've always advocated a status pay type of seniority system for a number of reasons, ......

Wow, C3D, have you been looking over your shoulder? Are you former Jazz? Could this be another case of the feeders showing the big boys how to play smart?

Jazz did merge four seniority lists without too much bloodshed,

Jazz did put a status pay system in place, and now the

Jazz YVR LEC is proposing some new and innovative systems that will go beyond even the status pay system. (Won't talk about it here but if you know the LEC you'll know it's interesting.)

[handyman]

We should build an Old-Age home with both a red and blue wing so they can continue their ridiculous fight well into retirement. Oh boo hoo you can't be a 777 Captain and must now fly the 67 or 320...who cares...you still have a good job! ...and, you can't do anything about it so move on!

[handyman]

What's an A-scale Cathay 747-400 Skipper earning?

More than your senior 777 Captain if Airline Pilot Central is correct. Your senior Captain is about the same as a junior B-scale Captain Canadian based.

This is not meant to be a brag but only a indication of how low your salaries are in comparison to others. Also, our B scale hasn't had a salary increase since 2001, A scale has only had salary cuts for the past 10+ years.

When you sell tickets at a fraction of what you did 15-20 years ago what do you expect?

[Kip Powick]

I posted, in my most recent addition as well as my initial question, to deal with both sides. Your response was to take a partial quote regarding Mitchnick and include it twice in your post, add a number of comments critical of the 'red' side and generally favorable of the 'blue', and, though you said you would not argue with me about what I said, went right ahead and did just that.

I find it impossible to believe that you posted what you have here without bias or agenda.

Vsplat..I feel we are on the same page and I think I have possibly misinterpreted what you posted...my speed reading may have been too speedy…

You said……

To me, this fight never was about fairness. It was about winning. Domination over another group. And all of the base, mean-spirited digs, reminders and attacks are simply one group's way of either spraying its scent on the territority or flipping the bird of defiance.

I thought you were alluding to the fact that CP had “won” and that all the comments in the above quote were directed at CP…….Upon reflection I see that you were merely describing “both” sides of the equation.

My further comments were just buttressing what I had misinterpreted.

I would think, however, that my closing points/lines would lead you to believe that the result of the SCC is of no consequence to me, naturally it will have no effect on my life in any manner. You tend to feel that I have, or had an agenda and I don’t think I can convince you one way or the other but as a last resort I could send you the true story entitled “The Chair” which I wrote, during the pilot seniority issue and if you read that carefully I think you will understand why there was, and is, no real reason for me to be concerned about the outcome…one way or the other. Consider when it was written, and when I became a "Dot".

I would like to restate what I posted further up the thread……if the SCC had come out with a different decision let's say in favour of OAC……I would have posted it in the same manner, in the same context...believe it or not.

DKP

[Guest floatrrr]

Wow, C3D, have you been looking over your shoulder? Are you former Jazz? Could this be another case of the feeders showing the big boys how to play smart?

Jazz did merge four seniority lists without too much bloodshed,

Jazz did put a status pay system in place, and now the

Jazz YVR LEC is proposing some new and innovative systems that will go beyond even the status pay system. (Won't talk about it here but if you know the LEC you'll know it's interesting.)

John,

Respectfully,

Jazz did merge 4 seniority lists...had to be done... Not too much bloodshed? Beg to differ. The Adams award had pilots laid off OUT of seniority. There were many DOWNGRADES and forced moves, while the merger may not have affected YOU there was sacrifice, and career expectations for some , were destroyed. Again, it is the junior that took the brunt, so please don't down play those facts.

Jazz put a status pay system in place, but it was all for naught. They are still scoped, so this does not do much for their cause. ALPA was the answer, but it isn't now.

Jazz YVR LEC is proposing some innovative systems...curious, why the cloak and dagger? Innovative like ... Virtual bases... Co-Captaincy(should be interesting with the 300 hour wonders they are hiring now). You know as well as I, if it costs Jazz one red cent for implementation, it will be a non-starter, not to mention the unlikeyhood of getting any support for the ideas from the MEC. Good luck with that.

This is not a snub at all, just another POV.Probably a little pessimistic, but sometimes that's what industry time will do to you.

[John S.]

. . .  Not too much bloodshed? Beg to differ. . . . .

Of course there were many pilots affected by the merger of the four seniority lists. But compared to what is going on (and has gone on) at other merged airlines, I think that the pilot group at Jazz did pretty well.

That is NOT to play down those laid off out of seniority - the worst examples were the guys at my predecessor company. But I will not get into that whole "career expectations were destroyed" debate. That is a topic best reserved for disgruntled mainline poops.

As for your comment

"Jazz put a status pay system in place, but it was all for naught. They are still scoped, so this does not do much for their cause. ALPA was the answer, but it isn't now."

I don't follow your logic. There are some advantages (and some disadvantages) to the status pay system. If you don't like it then you'll find that the disadvantages are the stronger, which is true for most senior captains. However I am a senior captain who believes the opposite.

You write

"Jazz YVR LEC is proposing some innovative systems...curious, why the cloak and dagger?". 

Because it is internal LEC material and I am not a spokesman for the LEC. I'll let them put out their ideas publicly when they want.

Speaking of cloak and dagger - why not use your real name here? What are YOU AFRAID OF?

John S.

[Guest floatrrr]

John,

Yes, there was a level of maturity within the Jazz group, that enabled the merger to happen and four different groups to work together. Ask the next senior F/O you fly with from one of the more junior camps if a DOH merger was good for them. You might be surprised by the answer you hear. I would say, a dovetail would have been better, everyone maintains their relative seniority, but DOH is the only true way right? Let's just sweep that one under the rug. nuf said.

The status pay system, I'm sure you remember, was a tool for the MEC of the time to try and garner some momentum in the negot's for the small jet deal. Would have been a bargain for ACE if Jazz would fly jungle jets for dash wages or even Airbusses for that matter. It so happens, it also saves the company a bit of cash for training costs, b/c you don't get pilots equipment hopping for pay purposes.

I'll just leave the cloak and dagger thing alone , There is good reason to maintain anonymity for me, as it is for most others here.

[RussD]

The status pay system, I'm sure you remember, was a tool for the MEC of the time to try and garner some momentum in the negot's for the small jet deal.

It most certainly was not. It was concieved and implemented long before the 'small jet competition' was even contemplated (MOA signed Nov 01 implemented July 02). Infact it was managements choice. Both a convention (type based) and status based pay scale were proposed by the Assoc. Management opted for the Status pay.

The main attraction to the Association was the fact that we were (and are) scoped to a very small slice of AC's product line and had at the time very little opportuinity to aquire jet equipement. It also had the effect of homogonizing some applications of seniority therfor mitigating some of the contentious effects of the merger.

John is quite right in stating that the most senior pilots are potentially the most obvious losers with the status pay system and the junior pilots potentially the most obvious gainers.