I think it is finally over

[handyman]

Good Grief!

Don't you guys ever get sick of re-hashing this crap? Does it really matter to any living soul what the damned financial condition of CAIL was before the deal was done? What freakin' difference does it make?... I mean other than to drive more wedges and pick at more scabs....? 'scuse me....

You guys are worse than kids sometimes...

Now, now Mitch...tis the season!

Just say...doesn't mean nothin... over and over again.

[Dork]

Hey unsustainable...see you in flight planning anytime.

Bring your lottery ticket.

[buzz]

My former 767 RP in 2000 has my 767 FO spot tonight on the trip I held 8 years ago as a 767 FO.

I would not hold the trip as an FO today after 1200 retirements....he is 300 numbers senior to me and never flew a day at a mainline prior to the merge.

Yeah Dork, I know who you're talking about. If he was "your" R/P it was in YYZ, and 8 years ago AC was hiring off the street into the YYZ 767 F/O slot, so you could have been a newhire back then.

It's all wind anyhow. ** and a few others benefited from seniority slots reserved on the blue list through a contractual agreement, no different than the connectors and AC LOU 18.

The bottom line, however, is that who that person is, when he was hired or any of that stuff just doesn't matter. IT'S A RATIO!!!! You guys say DOH doesn't matter - well OK, but you can't have it both ways. Who cares when or where this guy is from, he's blue, fills a blue slot in the ratioed list.

End of story.

BTW - Merry Christmas and good health and happiness to you (and everyone). In the grand scheme, that's what really matters.

Cheers

buzz

[Dork]

So my lottery numbers are right then...thank you Buzz. Merry Xmas Unsustainable.

P.S. I was not a newhire on the 767 and not an RJ pilot as many would have people believe.

Your numbers are correct and folks who never flew a day at a mainline anywhere were placed ahead of 1200 AC pilots 320 Capts and widebody FO's on the A340/B767.

After 8 years many of us have just returned to 1999 pre merger seniority.....now our seats have been occupied by the lottery crowd and those hired after Sept 2000.

I've been bumped twice from seat and was just called and informed I will be bumped again.

It is true, walk off the street Cail side before Set 2000 and you are now senior to a 1989 AC pilot. After Sept 2000 and you have the same seniority as a 1994 AC pilot.

So give it a rest you say...."I think it is finally over...." see you at age 65...and thanks for sitting in my seat.

Merry Xmas to you as well. I will be working.

[buzz]

It is true, walk off the street Cail side before Set 2000 and you are now senior to a 1989 AC pilot. After Sept 2000 and you have the same seniority as a 1994 AC pilot.

Wrongo.

I am senior to every one of the post January 2000 CAIL/CRA hires, and my spot on the list is in with 1997 connector hires at AC.

Gotta stick with reality and avoid the hype Dork.

By the way, I'm getting reduced in YYZ as well I think. As far as I know the bid award isn't out yet, so maybe you have an inside line on the results? I am looking forward to next Christmas off as a senior cruiser since I'm working the holidays just like you and being junior on type just isn't worth it.

[Dork]

I was hired in 1994. My numbers stand.

Going to work now see you in Jan. Merry Xmas and enjoy your New Years.

[buzz]

The OAC one number senior to me on the Keller list was hired Jan 6, 1997. I am senior to ** so he sure as heck ain't senior to an OAC "1994" hire.

The bottom original CAIL guy hired well before the flowthrough began was at CAIL on August 14 1990 and is one number junior to an OAC hired Sept 9 1996. In fact, there's an OAC guy on Keller's list 130 numbers senior to the aforementioned 1990 CAIL hire who came to AC on that same Jan 6, 1997 date (your list has a few bends and twists too, owing to the convoluted connector hiring at AC back then).

The last of the "243 squadron" for OAC was hired at AC on July 18 1988. There was no hiring on the AC list until the next pilot on the Keller list, an OAC guy hired June 5 1995. Those dates, by the way, are from the ACPA website/downloads/seniority lists. Look at the 2000 list - it's right there in black and white.

How is it that you can claim a 1994 date when there was no hiring from 1988 until mid 1995???

Hmmmmm....

ps - it's a ratio, so once again, who cares?

[Kip Powick]

With apologies to William Wordsworth.

I wish I was a forum administrator.

Then I could be a thread eliminator

I’d chastise some authors who relish in grief

Then you could call me the vocabulary thief

How can so many be petty and mean

When in reality this thread may be only a dream.

So DELETE, “I think it is finally over”,

Relish the season with friends, even Rover.

MERRY CHRISTMAS and HAPPY HOLIDAYS to ALL

[sustainable]

Dork,

Suck it up big boy. Your numbers dont jibe. Better yet, just drag it out for another 10 years. Completely internalize it. Take it out on your family. Hold meetings with all of your compartiots who feel they were screwed over. Really, really grind your teeth about it. Let it fester. Then, when you lose your medical, another undeserving blue pilot can take that spot too.

Merry whatever.

I'll be working.

[Dork]

Hi Buzz,

Thanks for the reply. I was stripped of my 1994 date and received a 1997 date due to no time credit allowed at the AC Regionals, unlike the lottery winners from CRA. Thank you for proving the point that some got a regional credit and others didn't. As a result they leapfrogged over 1200 of us into comfy spots for life.

I am -22% from a DOH list and as you have pointed out many folks got better than DOH under the ratio. That explains why Sept 2000 are 300 numbers senior to me and Oct 2000 people are next to me off the street.

8 years later I am back to my spot and stuck forever with off the street types ahead. Don't tell types like me we have lost nothing or that we had nothing or don't deserve at least our carrer expectation. You have your career expectation and have moved into ours.

Qantas is healthy because their Govt learned from out disaster.

I will never forget the TWA pilot who asked me in Hong Kong....how that hell did those CAIL types get that seniority award...he was completely amazed and had never heard of such a thing. He was looking for work along with the other 2500 United pilots..they were all in disbelief.

Thanks for the post Kip, as you can see it will never be over. This goes on forever.

Just like the EPA boys yelling FO to some of their "mates" in flight planning after we merged. ( Not AC types) They have never forgiven and have not moved on.

I have all the respect for my Blue 340 Capt who told me I got screwed and we had many a fine pop together. I helped his son get hired here.

Merry Xmas See you in 2009

[buzz]

I was stripped of my 1994 date and received a 1997 date due to no time credit allowed at the AC Regionals, unlike the lottery winners from CRA. Thank you for proving the point that some got a regional credit and others didn't. As a result they leapfrogged over 1200 of us into comfy spots for life.

So Dork, it seems to me that your issue should be with how AC pilots back then treated the AC Connectors, and perhaps how intransigent the connector leadership was in settling the issue between the camps and moving forward.

I can empathize a lot more with your situation given your comments, but once again - it's a ratio of lists, so a significant part of the "jamming" you took was your placement on the OAC list by your comrades back then.

There are statistical standouts that would make the case for either side of the argument - ratios do that IMO.

I'll drop off this thread as I am headed to work as well -

Seriously, Best Wishes for you and your family.

Buzz.

nice one Kip

[CAT3DUAL]

"Qantas is healthy because their Govt learned from out disaster."

Exactly what happened, it didn't take much convincing from the Qantas management to their federal counterparts to let things take there natural course. There are several internal documents that refer to several mergers, but the one that took the most attention was the AC/CAIL merger which closely reflected the same situation they found themselves in. The Aussie gov decided to let it go and hope something would rise from the ash.

"Just like the EPA boys yelling FO to some of their "mates" in flight planning after we merged. ( Not AC types) They have never forgiven and have not moved on."

As an EPA brat this one is also true, but a little imbelished. The statement, the way I understand it' went some along the lines like "How does it feel to be Fellered or something like that. One particular friend of my dad's who only had a year to go before he retired put it this way, after reading MM, he almost started to cry, but by the end he was laughing so hard and smiling knowing exactly how the original Gucci's would be reacting to this. The only people smiling in CP flight planning over the next few weeks were ex-EPA, even to this day many still laugh about it. Now me personally, I've moved, but don't get me wrong if the chance ever presents its self to fix this injustice, I'm in. I've got to much in my life to to give this another thought, you get by it, but you never get over it. Don't beleive me , then ask an EPA guy.

That being said next time Kip, when you are in an one of your moods and you want to start a thread thats going to open some wounds, and you are fully aware that it will, please do us a favour and go on the ACAP site and start it or any of the numerous other sites you frequent to pass your time away in retirement.

[Kip Powick]

That being said next time Kip, when you are in an one of your moods and you want to start a thread thats going to open some wounds, and you are fully aware that it will, please do us a favour and go on the ACAP site and start it or any of the numerous other sites you frequent to pass your time away in retirement.

Give it a rest...I don't have to defend my right to post the initial comment.... don't like the thread ? why do you keep coming back and attempt to lecture.?..this is like TV...don't like it...... change channels/ don't read it ,but don't waste your time attempting to lecture me.

[Dork]

Fair posting Buzz. Thank you for the acknowledgement.

You enjoy your Holiday season as well.

[CAT3DUAL]

I posted at 1105, you right on top of it and posted by 1128. I think I'm going to send a cheque into the fly till you die crowd, because Kip, if this is all I have to look forward to!

AH What ever floats your boat here's wishing good health/happiness to you and your family for Christmas and the new year.

Cheers

CAT

[Kip Powick]

if this is all I have to look forward to

All you have to look forward to?????

Try 5 or 6 mos on a boat, a couple of months in the Caribbean lookin' at fish, running a small business, and then spend a couple of cold and dreary months at home, surfing the web and getting up to date with the industry......yeh, it's a terrible life this "Dot" thing.

What's past is past. You, me, no one on this forum had anything to do with - who is where they are - now, it was out of our hands and in the hands of the elected groups, the arbitrators, and legal beagles, the courts, yet some individuals can not accept that fact ...it has become a personal issue with a mantra of "you're to blame".

That mind set is so sad.......but then again, some kids never grow up and never face reality.

Have a Merry Christmas and a better New Year and try to drink in life as it is, not how you wish it was, or how you were told it was going to be.

And if you "believe" remember what Billy Graham once said, when asked about "life"....."I've read the last page of the Bible. It's going to turn out all right".

G'night.

[Mitch Cronin]

...... .... and it's a one, two, three, what are we fightin' for?

don't ask me I don't give a damn

next stop is with the pogey man

...and it's a five, six, seven, open up the airport gates

Well there ain't no time to wonder why

Whoopee we're all gonna fly!

....with apologies to Country Joe

[vanishing point]

I certainly don't think this will be the last post on this thread but in the spirit of the season, can we let this one close and show a little Peace to our fellow man? Nothing is going to be solved here. Now get out and enjoy the holidays.

To all, have a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Cheers

VP

[DEFCON]

floatrr

You said; "Co-Captain". Where exactly does this form of genius emerge from?

You also referred to the notion that the AC post 97 crowd somehow got srewed over as a consequence of the CP /ac merge. Perhaps, perhaps not but, had the so called oac types been men of honor, ......

[vanishing point]

So much for that idea............

[Guest floatrrr]

floatrr

You said; "Co-Captain". Where exactly does this form of genius emerge from?

You also referred to the notion that the AC post 97 crowd somehow got srewed over as a consequence of the CP /ac merge. Perhaps, perhaps not but, had the so called oac types been men of honor, ......

Re: Co Captain

Talk to your reps.

Re: Post 97

Re read some of the earlier posts on this, it was WRT. CRA and Canadi<n.

Cheers.