737max

[jackr]

 

 

 

 

[vanishing point]

Clarification has been provided.  Thanks

[Maverick]

1 hour ago, jackr said:

according to cnn and cbc faa finds more faults with the max, they did not say what but i think like the avro arrow will be cut up and sold as scrap the airlines will have to pay passengers to fly on them

 

 

 

 

 

[boestar]

Seems there may be an issue with the Controller Microprocessor which may require a hardware change but Boeing says they should be able to fix it in software.

We will See

 

[Guest]

I imagine others will quickly follow suit:

Southwest further extends 737 Max cancellations to October

• 27 June, 2019
• SOURCE: Flight Dashboard
• BY: Ghim-Lay Yeo
• Washington DC

Southwest Airlines has further extended the cancellation of Boeing 737 Max flights, removing the aircraft from its schedule through 1 October.

The Dallas-based carrier had previously cancelled 737 Max-operated service through 2 September.

While US regulators said on 26 June that they had uncovered an additional issue that Boeing needs to address to return the aircraft to service, Southwest says that it decided to extend the cancellations before the recent development.

"We are encouraged by the reported progress and proposed path forward for returning the aircraft to service, and we remain confident that, once certified by the FAA, the enhancements will support the safe operation of the Max," says the airline.

"With the timing of the Max’s return-to-service still uncertain, we are again revising our plans to remove the Max from our schedule through Oct. 1."

The latest revision will cancel about 150 daily flights – or less than 4% – of the airline's peak-day schedule of more than 4,000 flights.

Southwest had operated 34 737 Max 8s before the FAA grounded the aircraft on 13 March. The airline was the largest 737 Max operator and has the world's biggest 737 fleet with more than 700 aircraft.

[Super 80]

I'm feeling less and less confident about my non-stop YYC-HNL WestJet flight in January.

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Super 80 said:

I'm feeling less and less confident about my non-stop YYC-HNL WestJet flight in January.

You might get lucky and they will sub in a "Dream Liner" or not

[Super 80]

The Dreamliners are going to Maui.

[Guest]

57 minutes ago, Super 80 said:

The Dreamliners are going to Maui.

Of course you could always change to Maui and island hop to HNL.

[conehead]

Or maybe they’ll sub in a 767. 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, conehead said:

Or maybe they’ll sub in a 767. 

MAX Fixes Will Take Until At Least September, Boeing Says

Sean Broderick | Aviation Daily June 27, 2019

WASHINGTON—Boeingwill need at least until September to address a new flight control computer (FCC) issue and wrap up changes needed to get the fleet flying again, Aviation Week has learned.

The issue came to light during engineering simulator tests with FAAtest pilots during the week of June 17. During a runway horizontal stabilizer troubleshooting procedure, FAA determined that line pilots would need more time to correctly diagnose the failure and execute the appropriate checklist. The tests also showed that a computer chip malfunction could lead to uncommanded stabilizer movement during the emergency procedure. FAA told Boeing to address the issues, and the manufacturer is complying.

“We are working through the software update and the potential implications for the timeline for the safe return to service of the 737 MAX fleet and resuming MAX deliveries,” a Boeing executive told Aviation Week. “Our current assessment is we will submit our final certification package to the FAA in the September timeframe.”

Boeing is confident that the latest issues can be addressed with software changes. The alternative—replacing computer chips on more than 500 MAXs—could prolong a worldwide grounding that started in mid-March.

Boeing is modifying specific FCC software linked to two 737 MAX accident sequences within five months. The second accident, the Mar. 10 crash of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302, triggered the global grounding.

The software changes focus on the MAX’s maneuvering characteristics augmentation system (MCAS), which helps the MAX mimic the flight characteristic of its 737 Next Generation predecessor in certain scenarios. The latest FCC issue is not believed to be linked to the proposed MCAS changes.

[Guest]

And the glue gets thicker:

Boeing 737 Max likely grounded until the end of the year after new problem emerges

Published 41 min agoUpdated 34 min ago

 

Elijah Shama

Key Points

• Boeing’s 737 Max could be grounded until late this year according to a Boeing official.
• U.S. air-safety regulators reportedly flagged a problem with the plane’s in-flight control chip.
• Over 500 of the aircraft manufacturer’s 737 Max planes have been grounded since mid-March.

Stephen Brashear | Getty Images

Boeing’s 737 Max could stay on the ground until late this year after a new problem emerged with the plane’s in-flight control chip, according to a Boeing official.

This latest holdup in the plane’s troubled re-certification process has to do with a chip failure that can cause uncommanded movement of a panel on the aircraft’s tail, pointing the plane’s nose downwards, the official said, asking not to be identified because the company hasn’t publicly disclosed it yet. Subsequent emergency tests to fix the issue showed it took pilots longer than expected to solve the problem according to The Wall Street Journal.

 

This marks a new problem with the plane unrelated to the issues Boeing is already facing with the plane’s MCAS automated flight control system. An issue the company maintains can be remedied by a software fix. Boeing hopes to submit all of its fixes to the Federal Aviation Administration this fall, the Boeing official said.

“We’re expecting a September time frame for a full software package to fix both MCAS and this new issue” the official said. “We believe additional items will be remedied by a software fix.”

Once that software package is submitted, it will likely take at least another two months before the planes are flying again. The FAA will need time to re-certify the planes; Boeing will also need to reach agreement with airlines and pilots unions on how much extra training pilots will need. The airlines will also need some time to complete necessary maintenance checks.

FAA spokesman Lynn Lunsford declined to comment on a specific timeline for the plane’s re-certification, saying “we have steadfastly stayed away from offering any timelines.”

The global Max fleet was grounded in mid-March following two fatal crashes a malfunction of the plane’s automated flight-control system, called MCAS, was implicated. The crashes killed 346 people combined.

[Guest]

Boeing Pledges Support to Families, Communities Affected by Lion Air Flight 610 and Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 Accidents

"CHICAGO, July 3, 2019 /PRNewswire/ -- Ahead of Independence Day in the U.S., Boeing [NYSE: BA] announced $100 million in funds to address family and community needs of those affected by the tragic accidents of Lion Air Flight 610 and Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302. These funds will support education, hardship and living expenses for impacted families, community programs, and economic development in impacted communities. Boeing will partner with local governments and non-profit organizations to address these needs. This initial investment will be made over multiple years.

"We at Boeing are sorry for the tragic loss of lives in both of these accidents and these lives lost will continue to weigh heavily on our hearts and on our minds for years to come. The families and loved ones of those on board have our deepest sympathies, and we hope this initial outreach can help bring them comfort," said Dennis Muilenburg, Boeing chairman, president and CEO.

"We know every person who steps aboard one of our airplanes places their trust in us. We are focused on re-earning that trust and confidence from our customers and the flying public in the months ahead."

Boeing will release additional information in the near future.

Consistent with Boeing's regular process for employee charitable donations, company employees will also have the opportunity to make donations in support of the families and communities impacted by the accidents. Boeing will match these employee donations through December 31, 2019."

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/2019-07...-302-Accidents

[GDR]

Here's a very interesting piece on Boeing.

https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/the-coming-boeing-bailout

[blues deville]

1 hour ago, GDR said:

Here's a very interesting piece on Boeing.

https://mattstoller.substack.com/p/the-coming-boeing-bailout

Great post and article. Required reading for anyone connected to this disaster. 

[Bobcaygeon]

2 hours ago, blues deville said:

Great post and article. Required reading for anyone connected to this disaster. 

Was McDonnell Douglas really a competitor in the civil world in the 1990's? They weren't developing anything new, just spinoff's of old designs (DC-9 and DC-10)....Sound familiar .

MD-D was focused on the C17 and other military aircraft.

Boeing built the MAX because that's what the customers wanted them to do. Did the customers want to wait for a new design or pay the higher costs vs the MAX for purchase and training? Nope, not at all..... Southwest, Ryan Air, etc were very clear about that. American's huge narrow body Airbus purchase in 2012?? made it clear they weren't waiting a decade or more either. In the early 2000's nearly every carrier in North America went thru Chapter 11 bankruptcy so its not like planes were flying of the lot either or operators wanted more expensive planes.

Blaming MD-D is cop out...... but I'm sure it added to the effect. 

[blues deville]

7 hours ago, Bobcaygeon said:

Was McDonnell Douglas really a competitor in the civil world in the 1990's? They weren't developing anything new, just spinoff's of old designs (DC-9 and DC-10)....Sound familiar .

McDonnell Douglas had their MD80 series in production from 1979 to 1999. AA and DL were both long time customers but I think the 767 and later on when 757 sales took off MD was left behind in the civilian aircraft market. 

[Don Hudson]

10 hours ago, Bobcaygeon said:

Blaming MD-D is cop out...... but I'm sure it added to the effect. 

Bobcaygeon;

The notion that the takeover of Boeing by McDonnell-Douglas has long and significant traction and not just among Boeing's engineers, retired, active and hired-after-merger. "Emerging from Turbulence", written in 2015, discusses the effects of the merger by interviews with employees done over a twenty year period, (a previous book with two additional authors was published in 2010).

The book reads as any book might where it concerns mergers and employees, and the themes will be familiar to most here.

The book is done with great care, intending to examine the effects of corporatization on employees over time. The theme is not "flight safety" and "organizational accidenets". Unlike the sociological study done by Diane Vaughan, (The Challenger Launch Decision) which does discuss organizational factors and failures which led to the loss of Challenger (and Columbia), the authors draw no conclusions at all regarding the safety and performance of Boeing aircraft or organizational factors concerning accidents involving Boeing aircraft.

The book is a cohort study, recording employee comments over time. I think the book is important as a proper study of organizational change and behaviour within the changing American poltical economy. In a concluding chapter, "Implications of the New Social Contract", the authors write:

"We assembled this collection of individual stories in the belief that employees desrve a hearing as we seek to understand the transformation of American workplaces. They are, after all, the ones who bear the consequences, both beneficial and harmful, of the many technological, organizational, and cultural changes that are under way. As we have seen, their experiences and responses to the changes are complex and highly personal. To some extent, the particular details and idiosyncratic nature of their responses are the inevitalbe result of using individual stories to illuminate the experiences of employees through these years of change. If, however, we examine the broader sweep of these stories by combining them into one narrative arc, we can detect an underlying trend in the way the three different cohorts responded to Boeing's transformation. We detect a gradual but unmistakable turn away from the company across time and across generations, evidence perhaps of the larger "unwinding" observed by George Parker.

. . . .

Most [employees] were aware of the problems introduced by the new business philosophy but didn't see them as sufficiently damaging to undermine their loyalty to and pride in the company. They still believed that the social contract or exchange between Boeing and them was, on the whole, equitable and balanced.

For other veteran Boeing employees, the problems couldn't easily be wespt aside but rather permanently altered how they viewed the company. They believed, with much justification, that Boeing's leaders had badly mishandled the development of the 787 in their efforts to cut costs and minimize risk. Excessive outsourcing and lack of oversight and control of the supply chain on the 787, they felt, were bound to produce serious problems. These employees also regretted what they perceived as Boeing's lack of respect for tribal and tacit knowledge accumulated by the workforce, as well as what they perceived as the companyt's cavalier attitude toward the preservation and transmission of the knowedge to the new genration of workers. They rued the absence of aerospace experience among top executives and their single-minded pursuit of the bottom line and short-term returns."

 

Any quoting from a book is always slightly unfair to the thesis and to those reading the quote because it isn't the whole thing. Early in the employee comments was the strong complaint that the McDonnell-Douglas culture destroyed the Boeing culture of "testing, re-testing and perfecting", (my words) and that "good enough" was good enough. One cannot draw a straight line between such cultural changes and, for example, the "normalization of deviance" to which Vaughan both creates and constantly refers to in her book on culture at NASA. But the themes are there nevertheless, an environment in which oversight was observed as less than optimal.

Elsewhere, (government documents found at "governmentattic.com" which hosts FOIA results), complaints that both FAA and Boeing engineers' challenges to design and process were discouraged or ignored by those in charge, are a matter of record, (links provided on the AEF earlier, on the main MAX thread).

I post this here because I think the matter cannot be merely set aside and "blame" is neither an answer nor a solution. In the same way that other organizational issues must be examined, (Fukushima, Deepwater Horizon, DC-10 cargo door, Colgan Q400, Challenger/Columbia) if they are to be recognized and fixed.

[Super 80]

On 6/27/2019 at 2:46 PM, Super 80 said:

I'm feeling less and less confident about my non-stop YYC-HNL WestJet flight in January.

Finally cancelled.

I'm told a lot of the affected flights were practically sold-out so there are going to be some awful replacement itineraries.

[Guest]

On 11/13/2019 at 1:28 PM, Super 80 said:

Finally cancelled.

I'm told a lot of the affected flights were practically sold-out so there are going to be some awful replacement itineraries.

I see aircanada is using Omni Air for a lot of their Hawaiian flights and they appear to have a lot of open space in Jan. 

[Super 80]

Omni is only operating YVR-HNL/OGG (and surprisingly PHX), not YYC or YEG.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Super 80 said:

Omni is only operating YVR-HNL/OGG (and surprisingly PHX), not YYC or YEG.

Air Canada web site is featuring YYC-YVR-HNL in jan eg. Not non stop but def a decent price.  WestJet is also offering only flights via yvr 737 both legs starting at 284 ow in Jan.  For my part I would favour the Omni Connection for the wide body YVR - HNL vs a 737.  

1 Stop - 9hr30m9 hours 30 minutes

21:50

Calgary

Honolulu

YVR

+ 1hr36m1 hour 36 minutes

Includes travel operated by Omni Air International

FlightDetails | Preview seats

Economy seats from

Economy cabin from

$410

. 4 options available to choose from.

Select your fare

 

[Geminoid]

I know someone who travelled on Air Canada/Omni operation to Hawaii and the aircraft are old and seating is allegedly terrible...no legroom at all.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Geminoid said:

I know someone who travelled on Air Canada/Omni operation to Hawaii and the aircraft are old and seating is allegedly terrible...no legroom at all.

Worse than a 737 for several hours?

[Geminoid]

Worse than Rouge 767 my friend said.