Pilot Shortage Is Here

[Bobcaygeon]

On 8/12/2018 at 11:00 PM, Rich Pulman said:

Blah, blah, blah. Yada, yada, yada. We’ve been reading about the shortage for years, and years, and years, and.... Anyone here tried to get a flying job in Canada recently? I have. Good luck even getting an acknowledgement of your application. No, I’m not upset about it, but it does make me chuckle when I hear operators complain about a pilot shortage. Then again, maybe my reputation precedes me. 

It still does from your Perimeter days......

[blues deville]

2 hours ago, lvlchange said:

Anyone see the possibility that the USA could open the borders?  After Trump lol.  

The last time it was only a temporary shortage but the US did open its doors. I interviewed with Comair (CVG) in ‘85 and was offered a job but didn’t go. Banderante FO $13500/yr....yikes. Others I know who went on temp H1 visas had to find spouses in a hurry when the US supply of pilots improved. 

Could happen again as anything is possible with Trump. 

Edited August 14, 2018 by blues deville

[rudder]

https://www.macleans.ca/opinion/canadas-aviation-industry-faces-existential-headwinds-and-that-affects-you/

[blues deville]

NYU is now offering free tuition to all future medical students. The idea that there’s a young person currently unable to attend medical school who may possess the skillls to save a life or discover a cure for today’s horrible diseases and cancers makes it all a great plan. 

Not comparing what pilots/engineers contribute to society but from the above MacLean’s article you will read that aviation in Canada has been and will forever be an important part of our lives. Will schools in Canada do something similar and offer free flight training to qualified candidates?

I recall in my early days of flying in northern Ontario being called at all hours to take a doctor/nurse team to some isolated community and medivac a patient. Two of my three night water landings were because of an urgent situation and no time to delay. If I hadn’t been available on those days I’m sure another young pilot would have but now this may change in our remote parts of Canada unless the process and costs of flight training becomes more manageable.

https://www-m.cnn.com/2018/08/16/health/nyu-free-tuition-medical-school/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F

Edited August 17, 2018 by blues deville

[Wolfhunter]

My definition of a pilot shortage has remained unchanged,....it exists when you lack the resources to train yourself out of the deficit and operational tempo suffers as a result. Mostly, at least in military circles, it boils down to simple arithmetic and time appreciation. I don't imagine the civilian world is much different.... maybe bigger and more costly to fix but just as easy to predict as is the quest for solutions through automation. It's simply become one of those self inflicted "what did you think was going to happen" scenarios IMO with no other possible outcome.

Rich - Agreed, I don't think we are quite there yet either and for the same reason. It seems your Canadian experience here mirrors my own. Had I been willing to pay for my own type rating, the jobs would have been there.... and thats both in the Helo and FW world with helicopter type ratings being the most costly. I attribute much of it to the easy access to TFWs, this served only to render my experience less valuable than the type rating itself. 

A long time ago, I used to say hey, I meet the minimum requirements, I have a type rating, I’m young and keen and I’ll do a good job for you. The response was always the same…. hey, I can get guys with 10,000 hours.

Fast forward to now and I'm saying hey, I have 10,000 hours and just need a type rating. The response is, I can get young keen guys with a type rating that meet the minimum requirements or bring in a TFW. The government is complicit here as well, as an operator, you only need to place a bogus ad requiring the type rating... presto, no qualified Canadian pilots.

Your dump truck and a hearty "welcome back" from Revenue Canada awaits.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Wolfhunter

[Moon The Loon]

https://www.castanet.net/news/Kelowna/243166/Pilots-needed-says-Fuhr?fbclid=IwAR2fKFZ4RFpUWDeNLLHB7XFXs1pwFGvnM1tJZ9oLNyOWk1jEfmEtYypJHTE

 

Pilots needed, says Fuhr

Nicholas Johansen - Nov 28, 2018 / 4:46 pm | Story: 243166

Photo: File photo

A private motion from Kelowna's member of Parliament looks to address a looming pilot shortage in Canada.

Stephen Fuhr's motion M-177 was introduced in the House of Commons in April, and after debate in October and earlier this month, it was passed Wednesday.

“Estimates are that Canada will need 7,000 to 10,000 new pilots by 2025, resulting in a projected shortage of at least 3,000 pilots, given our current production rate,” Fuhr said.

“Some of the biggest challenges to pilot production in Canada are the high cost of training for new commercial pilots, the low starting salaries, and an industry that has evolved a non-linear career path.”

The motion instructs the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities to study why Canadian flight training schools are having trouble attracting pilots and to determine whether flight schools have the infrastructure available to meet their needs.

Fuhr's motion received unanimous support in the House, and the committee's report will be completed within seven months.

“Our country's economic prosperity will be highly influenced by the health and well-being of the Canadian aviation sector, and it is my hope that by studying the issue, the Standing Committee on Transport, Infrastructure and Communities will be able to determine the most effective way to support our Canadian flight schools and pilot production in Canada,” Fuhr said.

[Moon The Loon]

On 8/13/2018 at 12:00 AM, Rich Pulman said:

Blah, blah, blah. Yada, yada, yada. We’ve been reading about the shortage for years, and years, and years, and.... Anyone here tried to get a flying job in Canada recently? I have. Good luck even getting an acknowledgement of your application. No, I’m not upset about it, but it does make me chuckle when I hear operators complain about a pilot shortage. Then again, maybe my reputation precedes me. 

The trouble Rich, is our seniority systems, embedded in every company worth working for. You have to start at the bottom.

Can you imagine any other "profession" having to do that? Heart surgeon, experienced lawyer, even a high school principal?

Kinda why I stopped calling myself a "professional" pilot decades ago - this is just the stupid business I work for!   

[Guest]

Talk about an opportunity for the Liberals to use some of their hidden cash (see non aviation forum) to subsidize the cost of becoming a Commercial Pilot!  Subject of course to passing a rigorous criteria of those who would line up for the training.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Moon The Loon said:

The trouble Rich, is our seniority systems, embedded in every company worth working for. You have to start at the bottom.

Can you imagine any other "profession" having to do that? Heart surgeon, experienced lawyer, even a high school principal?

Kinda why I stopped calling myself a "professional" pilot decades ago - this is just the stupid business I work for!   

Moon:  you might want to revisit your post re starting at the bottom:

I Want to Be a Principal

To become a principal in a publicly funded school in Ontario, you need an undergraduate degree, five years of teaching experience, certification in three divisions (primary, junior, intermediate, senior), two Specialist or Honour Specialist additional qualifications or a master's degree, and you are required to complete the Principal's Qualification Program.

The Principal's Qualification Program is offered by Ontario universities, teachers' federations and principals' associations. The program is designed to provide educators with the knowledge and skills necessary to become effective school administrators.

The Ontario College of Teachers, the self-regulatory body that certifies, governs and regulates teachers and principals, provides a resource entitled The Principal's Qualification Program Guide, which offers a detailed overview of the program. Also available on the College's website is a list of the universities and organizations that offer the Principal's Qualification Program.

For additional information about becoming a principal, visit the websites of the three principals' associations, Ontario Principals' Council (OPC), Catholic Principals' Council of Ontario (CPCO) and L'Association des directions et directions adjointes des écoles franco-ontariennes (ADFO).

 

Heart Surgeon: https://study.com/articles/How_to_Become_a_Heart_Surgeon.html

Experienced Lawyer: https://careers.findlaw.com/how-to-find-a-legal-job/how-can-a-lawyer-with-experience-find-a-job.html

[Moon The Loon]

15 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

Moon:  you might want to revisit your post re starting at the bottom:

I Want to Be a Principal

To become a principal in a publicly funded school in Ontario, you need an undergraduate degree, five years of teaching experience, certification in three divisions (primary, junior, intermediate, senior), two Specialist or Honour Specialist additional qualifications or a master's degree, and you are required to complete the Principal's Qualification Program.

The Principal's Qualification Program is offered by Ontario universities, teachers' federations and principals' associations. The program is designed to provide educators with the knowledge and skills necessary to become effective school administrators.

The Ontario College of Teachers, the self-regulatory body that certifies, governs and regulates teachers and principals, provides a resource entitled The Principal's Qualification Program Guide, which offers a detailed overview of the program. Also available on the College's website is a list of the universities and organizations that offer the Principal's Qualification Program.

For additional information about becoming a principal, visit the websites of the three principals' associations, Ontario Principals' Council (OPC), Catholic Principals' Council of Ontario (CPCO) and L'Association des directions et directions adjointes des écoles franco-ontariennes (ADFO).

 

Heart Surgeon: https://study.com/articles/How_to_Become_a_Heart_Surgeon.html

Experienced Lawyer: https://careers.findlaw.com/how-to-find-a-legal-job/how-can-a-lawyer-with-experience-find-a-job.html

Malcolm, I think you just proved my point!!!!! WELL DONE!

[blues deville]

MP Fuhr has good intentions however unless the Fed’s dial back almost 80 years to something like the BCATP (British Commonwealth Air Training Plan) of WWII I don’t know if any training plan will encourage young people to want to fly and do all the other jobs required in aviation. 

Edited November 29, 2018 by blues deville

[DEFCON]

"The Ontario College of Teachers, the self-regulatory body that certifies, governs and regulates teachers and principals"

Those who refer to themselves as 'professionals' all follow the same approach as the teachers.

Pilot's insist on being unionists.

Edited November 30, 2018 by DEFCON

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Moon The Loon said:

Malcolm, I think you just proved my point!!!!! WELL DONE!

Not sure how ?  If you look at the years of education and other qualifications required these are def. not walk in jobs.
 

[J.O.]

I know a couple of school principals who have transferred into another jurisdiction at the same job level.

[Guest]

16 hours ago, J.O. said:

I know a couple of school principals who have transferred into another jurisdiction at the same job level.

I know a couple of pilots who did the same thing when their airline was purchased by another or I guess you could say jurisdiction.  Re the principals I guess it was because of their proven experience including the number of years spent in their profession?

 

[boestar]

The point is if a pilot moves he goes back to the bottom, Experience be damned.  A principal changes jobs and either gets a raise or its a lateral move.  This is what Union seniority does for you.  It removes the "Professional" from you career and makes it a union "JOB"

 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, boestar said:

The point is if a pilot moves he goes back to the bottom, Experience be damned.  A principal changes jobs and either gets a raise or its a lateral move.  This is what Union seniority does for you.  It removes the "Professional" from you career and makes it a union "JOB"

 

Understood but as long as Pilots are members of unions, subject to contracts at individual airlines, that will never change unless of course (will never happen) the unions include wording in their contracts that would allow pilots to do lateral transfers with no loss of benefits or unless there is a National Organization that talks for all pilots such as the ones that exist for Teachers, Doctors etc.

 

 

 

 

[boestar]

Exactly and yet I, as a professional, can move to any other airline as a lateral or better move.  because there is no seniority or union.

[Kip Powick]

If you think the airline industry will change  from Seniority to lateral transfers you are dreaming..it will never happen. 

When I was awarded my RCAF wings I considered myself as a professional pilot.....not a pilot with a "job". I am confident that  the airline industry feels their pilots are professionals as well.

Trying to compare pilots moving from location  and teachers (Principals), moving from location to location  is comparing Apples to Oranges.

There are extremely  big difference in comparing a School Principal who goes home every night, and only works about 256 days a year,  pushing paper, with that of a professional pilot who undergoes constant scrutiny and has to endure never ending testing to maintain, or go ahead in his/her profession. 

IMO if there are airline pilots, and AMEs,  out there in the airline industry who don't consider themselves as professionals........maybe they should change vocations.

 

[Wolfhunter]

51 minutes ago, Kip Powick said:

IMO if there are airline pilots, and AMEs,  out there in the airline industry who don't consider themselves as professionals........maybe they should change vocations.

 

I don’t see that as an issue. In terms of experienced drivers though, more than a few go to waste at the very time they might be of value as operators and mentors.

Retired RCAF pilots at the age of 55 ish, expats returning from long term over seas jobs, and others who have found their circumstances require a change sometimes move on to other jobs and discover operating an excavator is actually fun and pays better than starting over. It doesn't seem like good value or wise use of a resource, in fact, it seems like a net loss to an industry that might stand to benefit from grey hair for a few years as it sorts itself out.

It’s not a seniority issue (at least for me) it’s simply a pay issue. Not sour grapes either, I wouldn't go back now but know others who would (or might). Some are just too young to want retirement and too old to want to start over at apprenticeship wages... all are a loss to the industry. Always fun explaining this to tradesmen at a job site over lunch....

Edited November 30, 2018 by Wolfhunter

[Kip Powick]

I understand your POV but there is no way an expat would be welcomed into an Airline Company based on his/her experience, and slide in ahead of "installed" Company airline pilot.

For example the ex-pat is pulling in 6+ figures overseas, comes back to Canada and does a lateral transfer  for 6- figures  and effectively blocks a young fellow at the bottom who may have 5-10 years in and now has to wait how many more years to get up the list to bigger and better equipment/pay?

Expats made their choice and if circumstances change, they have to live with the consequences.

Ex Mil?? I joined the Airline Industry at age 45 and was slotted at the bottom even though I had,  thousands of world wide hours and flew with Captains who had less than 50% of the hours I accumulated in the Military.....it was my choice and I had no problem saying "What do you mean WE have a problem Captain ?"... 

The same holds true for ex Mil who felt they were under paid and went to airlines and then had their choice go under.....you make your own choices and have to live with what falls out of the mix.

Some are lucky, some are not....

 

[Wolfhunter]

10 minutes ago, Kip Powick said:

I understand your POV but there is no way an expat would be welcomed into an Airline Company based on his/her experience, and slide in ahead of "installed" Company airline pilot.

 

From my perspective, you are taking it a bit further than need be. I certainly can't speak for expats but submit many just feel too young to retire and are willing to start at the bottom of the seniority list but not at the bottom of the pay scale.That is the issue... at least it stands as my issue anyway. I get the seniority thing and that's not where I (personally) have a quarrel with the present system. Losing these guys to dump trucks and excavators seems unreasonable to me from an industry perspective, especially now.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Wolfhunter

[Kip Powick]

Your premise.............

So FO Blogins seniority is number 2876 and he makes $50,0000.00 as an FO on the twin engine "Wingbat"  "

And FO Ramjet, (expat), seniority is number 2877 and he makes $ 75,000.00 based on his experience,  is also on the "Wingbat".

The numbers are just examples to show my POV. 

Now both are QUALIFIED on the same machine, took the same Airline course, same indoctrination  but Ramjet, because he has 15,000 hours of experience and Blogins only has 5000 hours,  of experience makes $25,000.00 more ???

I don't think you will find that scenario will fly ....anywhere....

[blues deville]

For what it’s worth expats are returning to Canada and be hired as DEC’s. And there may be more DEC positions ahead in our airline industry as many recent new hires do not have the experience or qualifications to upgrade. 

[J.O.]

... and the ones in the right seat along side those DECs will grumble that someone is sitting in their chair.