TA Vote by FA's

[rudder]

Looking for public sympathy is never an effective bargaining strategy no matter what the vocation or circumstance. It was a mistake for CUPE to march out an inactive member as the example. Actually, it was a mistake to agree to the article period. But then again, CUPE has made many mistakes over the past several months.

I am sympathetic to the AC FA cause, but they better hope that 'benchmarking' does not form part of the legislated solution to the dispute as the AC FA's are miles out ahead of any other North American carrier.

PR is all about 'spin'. But in front of an arbitrator you need to bring facts. Rejecting TA1 was the right thing to do. Rejecting TA2 will prove to be a mistake.

[dagger]

I also have a problem with the way the story is written.

She's on leave, yet she took a CUPE job to make extra money? Extra when you're on leave? How does she qualify for paid leave? Union leave might be paid, but if so, she's double dipping on the members.

[rudder]

I also have a problem with the way the story is written.

She's on leave, yet she took a CUPE job to make extra money? Extra when you're on leave? How does she qualify for paid leave? Union leave might be paid, but if so, she's double dipping on the members.

dagger,

I am not sure if things have changed but I do know that the compensation system for the top Executive level at AC CUPE was predicated on the highest actual earned purser paycheque each month. This apparently had the top AC CUPE Executives earning over six figures annually. I know that it was a bone of contention for some of the membership and do not know if it ever changed.

[UpperDeck]

No mention of perdiem................. or alimony as well...

Alimony? What's "alimony"? Just kidding but unlikely this husband is paying spousal support and I think there was reference to shared custody. However, as you know, add at least $850. per month for allowances.

[moeman]

dagger,

I am not sure if things have changed but I do know that the compensation system for the top Executive level at AC CUPE was predicated on the highest actual earned purser paycheque each month. This apparently had the top AC CUPE Executives earning over six figures annually. I know that it was a bone of contention for some of the membership and do not know if it ever changed.

Yes, things have changed.

[moeman]

If I am reading this right she makes 46K for working 4 weekends a month which include 24 hours of a layover and leaving YVR late on Friday night.

This is roughly the equivalent of making $23/hour at a full time 40 hour per week job. I know that there are other issues as well that the article does not delve into but I am not sure that this is going to create a lot of empathy for the FA cause. There are lots of divorced mothers and fathers who would snap up that deal in a heartbeat.

As opposed to making $200,000 or more working, well, look above....

[rudder]

As opposed to making $200,000 or more working, well, look above....

With all due respect, the Capt of the widebody is being paid what he/she is worth given technical qualification, experience, and responsibility and the FA is being paid what he/she is worth given technical qualification, experience, and responsibility. Market forces then influence the compensation equilibrium.

Can that Captain be replaced by a pilot just out of commercial flight school? No. The FA? All I know is that there are other Canadian carriers where new-hires can be assigned directly to Purser duties on large aircraft.

Therefore, the market forces that affect commercial airline pilots are somewhat different than the market forces that affect airline flight attendants. Having said that, factoring in the cost of living index it is likely that FA's have fared better than commercial pilots over the past 2 decades in terms of preserving compensation levels.

[moeman]

A senior pilot makes upwards of $200,000-300,000 for working the same number of days a year as an FA. Works out to $100-$150 an hour versus the $40 for an FA. I won`t argue what each is worth. You`re absolutely right there. But....if Chock is going to suggest that FA`s shouldn`t attempt to generate public sympathy due to the fact that their salaries are based upon a dozen or less days per month once they reach max pay and seniority, pilots had better not do the same.

How many hours a week do Family Doctors work. Surgeons. Lawyers. I`m trying to suggest professionals that make similar salaries, people who would gladly exchange the training they went through and the hours they put in each week for the 2 or 3 days a week you guys put in to earn your pay, just as Chock so glibly tried to compare us to divorced Moms and Dads, regardless of their education, training, or history.

[FA@AC]

they better hope that 'benchmarking' does not form part of the legislated solution to the dispute as the AC FA's are miles out ahead of any other North American carrier.

We're miles out ahead in some respects, but miles behind in others.

[moeman]

True. I'd hope that our pilots aren't benchmarked themselves. Depending on the parameters used, it could get ugly.

[rudder]

A senior pilot makes upwards of $200,000-300,000 for working the same number of days a year as an FA. Works out to $100-$150 an hour versus the $40 for an FA. I won`t argue what each is worth. You`re absolutely right there. But....if Chock is going to suggest that FA`s shouldn`t attempt to generate public sympathy due to the fact that their salaries are based upon a dozen or less days per month once they reach max pay and seniority, pilots had better not do the same.

How many hours a week do Family Doctors work. Surgeons. Lawyers. I`m trying to suggest professionals that make similar salaries, people who would gladly exchange the training they went through and the hours they put in each week for the 2 or 3 days a week you guys put in to earn your pay, just as Chock so glibly tried to compare us to divorced Moms and Dads, regardless of their education, training, or history.

Pilots will fare no better if they turn their own bargaining issues into a PR campaign.

AC has put out some propaganda regarding what they assert is the compensation and benefits earned at the max, min, and average levels for the FA's. All that CUPE has done is marched out a union rep on leave from AC and asserted that some FA's are paid $18K/yr. While I am opposed to the pointless back and forth of otherwise meaningless statistical rhetoric directed at the general public, what AC has disseminated appears to be factual so it would behoove CUPE to generate its own 'fact sheet' if for no other purpose than to prepare for a facts based argument in a forum that counts.

[AIP]

A senior pilot makes upwards of $200,000-300,000 for working the same number of days a year as an FA.

Are you really going to try and compare pilots to F/A's ?? We share the same aluminum tube and breath the same air (although I have had one or two of your more "learned" colleagues say in the flight deck that the pilot have all the "good" air up there), that is where the comparison stops.

Qualifications, licensing, experience, hell even the CARS make your argument not even worth having.

[MD2]

In other words, as Mike Wallace once put it, sharing a corporation is not the same as sharing a profession.....

[chockalicious]

A senior pilot makes upwards of $200,000-300,000 for working the same number of days a year as an FA. Works out to $100-$150 an hour versus the $40 for an FA. I won`t argue what each is worth. You`re absolutely right there. But....if Chock is going to suggest that FA`s shouldn`t attempt to generate public sympathy due to the fact that their salaries are based upon a dozen or less days per month once they reach max pay and seniority, pilots had better not do the same.

How many hours a week do Family Doctors work. Surgeons. Lawyers. I`m trying to suggest professionals that make similar salaries, people who would gladly exchange the training they went through and the hours they put in each week for the 2 or 3 days a week you guys put in to earn your pay, just as Chock so glibly tried to compare us to divorced Moms and Dads, regardless of their education, training, or history.

Hi Moeman

I think you are missing the point here. This FA was probably not the best example to win a PR batte with respect to the plight of an FA. I think alos you have to differentiate FA tactics from pilot tactics, if they want to float a story out there why should the FA group care?

I was not comparing you to divorced Mom and Dads. I was saying a lot of themn would like the same deal this FA has. The issue of her being divorced was told in the article and why I commented on it.

[Leading Edge]

A senior pilot makes upwards of $200,000-300,000 for working the same number of days a year as an FA. Works out to $100-$150 an hour versus the $40 for an FA. I won`t argue what each is worth. You`re absolutely right there. But....if Chock is going to suggest that FA`s shouldn`t attempt to generate public sympathy due to the fact that their salaries are based upon a dozen or less days per month once they reach max pay and seniority, pilots had better not do the same.

How many hours a week do Family Doctors work. Surgeons. Lawyers. I`m trying to suggest professionals that make similar salaries, people who would gladly exchange the training they went through and the hours they put in each week for the 2 or 3 days a week you guys put in to earn your pay, just as Chock so glibly tried to compare us to divorced Moms and Dads, regardless of their education, training, or history.

And you wonder why you get little or no support from the Pilot community. I have seen this type of comment from FA's time and time again. What a Pilot earns has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on what an FA makes, and the sooner you learn that - the better for yourselves. The article in question was not bad, but it will fail to generate public support, which I will assume, was its intent. Personally, I would have found a single mother on the bottom of the FA food chain and done THAT article.

The Public/Government does not see FA's being remotely close to Pilots, Doctors, etc... They see you as glorified wait staff, I would work on changing that perception if I was you, then you might garner some sympathy.

[moeman]

Who's comparing what you make to what we make? I compared your salaries to doctors and lawyers' salaries. It's our number of days on and off that are comparable.

I agree that the article wasn't the best representation, but my point stands. A lot of surgeons/lawyers/doctors would love the working conditions that a senior pilot at AC has. All in all, we have it pretty good once we get near the top of our respective food chains.

[Ex 9A Guy]

A lot of surgeons/lawyers/doctors would love the working conditions that a senior pilot at AC has. All in all, we have it pretty good once we get near the top of our respective food chains.

A LOT of SENIOR doctors and surgeons do enjoy working conditions and salaries well in excess of what any senior AC pilot enjoys or makes.

Like in any industry the less senior have to pay their dues and work the long hours for less pay, but when they reach the pinnacle of their careers they get to enjoy what they have earned.

[boestar]

Those senior doctors and surgeons only make those large salaries if they SPECIALIZE. A family Doctor practicing for 25 years in Canada does not make as much as one would expect. We are not the USA where that is a different story.

Besides Doctors work a minimum of 160 hours a month NOT 80 for that pay. Many have to be on call 24/7 during residency for several days or weeks at a time.

Pilots work 80 hours a month which is half the average working persons hours so a direct salary comparison is un fair. Break that $200k down to hourly and you get what $203.33 / hour.

Now I know FAs make less but assuming the same working hours (and I know they only get paid in the air) is about $48 /hour I dont know many people anywhere that make that much per hour. hell you could have another job if you played your schedule right to make up the other 80 hours per month.

I am sorry but this does not drum up any sympathy when you do the math. sure this is the top tier numbers but it is just to paint the picture that the annual salary of flight crew looks much different when broken down into working hours.

I dont begrudge anyone that but comparing a pilot to a surgeon just doesnt fly with me as it is apples and bricks as far as Iam concerned.

[Homerun]

Those senior doctors and surgeons only make those large salaries if they SPECIALIZE. A family Doctor practicing for 25 years in Canada does not make as much as one would expect. We are not the USA where that is a different story.

Besides Doctors work a minimum of 160 hours a month NOT 80 for that pay. Many have to be on call 24/7 during residency for several days or weeks at a time.

Pilots work 80 hours a month which is half the average working persons hours so a direct salary comparison is un fair. Break that $200k down to hourly and you get what $203.33 / hour.

Now I know FAs make less but assuming the same working hours (and I know they only get paid in the air) is about $48 /hour I dont know many people anywhere that make that much per hour. hell you could have another job if you played your schedule right to make up the other 80 hours per month.

I am sorry but this does not drum up any sympathy when you do the math. sure this is the top tier numbers but it is just to paint the picture that the annual salary of flight crew looks much different when broken down into working hours.

I dont begrudge anyone that but comparing a pilot to a surgeon just doesnt fly with me as it is apples and bricks as far as Iam concerned.

Pilots don't "work" 80 hrs per month. Those are the flying hours. On duty hours are much higher, as much as double for short haul operations.

Also, when comparing "days", for a senior long haul pilot those "days" are 14-17 hrs long, not 8 hr days as the layman is commonly referring to.

[rudder]

Pilots don't "work" 80 hrs per month. Those are the flying hours. On duty hours are much higher, as much as double for short haul operations.

Also, when comparing "days", for a senior long haul pilot those "days" are 14-17 hrs long, not 8 hr days as the layman is commonly referring to.

Which is why pilot and FA negotiators would be wise to change the pay label from 'hourly rate' to some other term (credit?). Otherwise the public (and politicians) actually compare the collective agreement hourly scale to real world hourly scale which is a gross misnomer. And pay credits are derived from a number of different sources, not simply brakes off to brakes on.

Therefore, for flight crew we have on a monthly basis:

- pay rate (credits)

- on duty (hours)

- away from home (hours)

The resultant average might be on the order of 80/140/280 with senior looking at 80/100/200. So the lesson for the layman who spends 40 hours per week at a desk but sleeps in their own bed every night is to ask how they would like to spend half of every week away from their home and family? That is the nature of flight crew schedules.

[Ex 9A Guy]

Those senior doctors and surgeons only make those large salaries if they SPECIALIZE. A family Doctor practicing for 25 years in Canada does not make as much as one would expect. We are not the USA where that is a different story.

Besides Doctors work a minimum of 160 hours a month NOT 80 for that pay. Many have to be on call 24/7 during residency for several days or weeks at a time.

Pilots work 80 hours a month which is half the average working persons hours so a direct salary comparison is un fair. Break that $200k down to hourly and you get what $203.33 / hour.

Now I know FAs make less but assuming the same working hours (and I know they only get paid in the air) is about $48 /hour I dont know many people anywhere that make that much per hour. hell you could have another job if you played your schedule right to make up the other 80 hours per month.

I am sorry but this does not drum up any sympathy when you do the math. sure this is the top tier numbers but it is just to paint the picture that the annual salary of flight crew looks much different when broken down into working hours.

I dont begrudge anyone that but comparing a pilot to a surgeon just doesnt fly with me as it is apples and bricks as far as Iam concerned.

Pilots may not specialize in the same way as doctors or surgeons but the point I was trying to make that you seemed to miss was that just about all professions/careers have additional benefits as you accrue seniority or tenure.

Pilots starting out also work long hours in oftentimes less than desirable living and working conditions. Those that remain working for smaller operators either by choice or lack of advancement opportunity remain at those lower salary levels and longer working hours, although with seniority they will eventually rise to achieve the best their employer has to offer. Doctors who remain in family or small rural practice also have the opportunity for advancement through specialties and or moving to larger population centres. Some avail of these opportunities and others don't for various reasons, both personal and professional.

Pilot work 80 hours a month, you are really not naive enough to actually believe that are you? See rudder's post above for a more accurate representation. Divide the $200,000 by the time away from home (280 hours/month) and it comes out to $59.50/hour and my contractor buddy bills out at more than that.

I was not trying to drum up any sympathy from you or anyone else. I have worked long and hard to get where I am in my career and IMHO I am worth every penny of my salary and am not apologetic for it in the least, to you or anyone else. I came from a basic high school education through self funded flying training and a string of progressively less crappy jobs for 12 years before I got hired at WestJet 11 years ago.

If you want to compare my career path to that of someone in the medical profession for 23 years go ahead but my first commercial job in 1990 paid me $12,000/year and I had a wife and a newborn to support on that, even a rank intern straight out of medical school would earn 3 or 4 times that. Besides doctors get to bury their mistakes one at a time, if I make an error serious enough I will the the first to arrive at the scene of the accident along with possibly 172 others.

All career path choices have pros and cons and decisions to be made along the way that determine where one will end up.

[Kip Powick]

Why does anyone think a very senior pilot on the B777 should get $200,000.00/yr???

He receives that pay, not because of his seniority but because that is the equipment he can hold......maybe....just maybe ...he would rather be home every night after flying 3 or 4 sectors..domestic/USA ..but the pilot corp convinced the owners of airline companies,a very long time ago, that big airplanes, need senior pilots and that big airplanes carry lots of people and that was an awesome reponsibility for that senior pilot and............. the company "must" make lots of money with those big airplanes so...........................big airplane drivers get more money than little airplane drivers.

That era has long past..........the technology of aircraft has allowed even the "green" pilots to quickly excel in their craft, large or small....the mechanics of flying is more simple than the days of being stuck at 10,000 feet, flying the Trans Atlantic, listening and watching 4 piston engines drone on.

The bottom line is.......the difference between a B747 Captain and an Embraer Captain is only a 6 week course. If some of the "older guys" don't think that is true...look around. There are companies out there, (I know , I know, none of the well known airline companies), where the Captains of the super wide bodies are very young men/women in comparison to the major airline companies. They fly world wide...are they less "qualified" than the older, more senior airline pilots? I don't think so.

So what's the answer/...If I was king.. .......I would have my airline pilots paid according to seniority......not equipment held/ flown.

My apologies for taking this thread off on a tangent

[J.O.]

The bottom line is.......the difference between a B747 Captain and an Embraer Captain is only a 6 week course. If some of the "older guys" don't think that is true...look around. There are companies out there, (I know , I know, none of the well known airline companies), where the Captains of the super wide bodies are very young men/women in comparison to the major airline companies.

Actually, BA has many widebody long haul captains who are quite junior because they have a status pay system. Many senior guys don't want to do the time zone changes at the end of their career.

[Leading Edge]

Well, this degenerated into a Pilot salary discussion rather quickly, which was probably moemans intent...

Lets get back to the tread and talk about FA's...

[rudder]

Lets get back to the tread and talk about FA's...

Any updates on the CIRB proceedings?