Dropzone Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 With the impact of the decision still to be assessed....pensions and benefits will be severely changed forever. IMO it means SOME pilots will be forced to work until death. The consequences of the claimants' actions have not been considered. Pandora's Box has been opened....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudder Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 With the impact of the decision still to be assessed....pensions and benefits will be severely changed forever. IMO it means SOME pilots will be forced to work until death. The consequences of the claimants' actions have not been considered. Pandora's Box has been opened....... Really? Is that how it works at all of the other airlines in Canada? Stop looking at the issue as if AC is the only planet in the universe and you will see that it is a non-issue except for those who subscribe to the notion of predictable advancement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 Really? Is that how it works at all of the other airlines in Canada? Stop looking at the issue as if AC is the only planet in the universe and you will see that it is a non-issue except for those who subscribe to the notion of predictable advancement. Either system is fine, it's the changing midstream that causes the problem. Imagine the consequences at any company if the retirement age, or any employment parameter, was suddenly moved significantly. How about at your company - if it was suddenly announced that holiday bidding or allotment will be completely changed and you will be severely disadvantaged - would you consider this to be a non-issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymous Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 Watch how many guys now work til 60, like they planned, and then all of a sudden now collect GDIP for the next x years until forced to retire... I guarantee this will happen... PS on the positive side, pilots will now accrue service until age 65 or whatever, so that they will be on even terms for pass travel, unlike the current system where they retire at 60 and stop accruing service and all other employees gain 5 years on the pilots in their retirement pass privileges....and yes, I am being sarcastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rudder Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 How about at your company - if it was suddenly announced that holiday bidding or allotment will be completely changed and you will be severely disadvantaged - would you consider this to be a non-issue? No, I would consider it the reality of the business and time spent in the business. Mergers and bankruptcies have already changed the landscape of seniority, work rules, and entitlements that some thought would last forever. This is just another bump on a very long road. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted August 30, 2009 Share Posted August 30, 2009 No, I would consider it the reality of the business and time spent in the business. Mergers and bankruptcies have already changed the landscape of seniority, work rules, and entitlements that some thought would last forever. This is just another bump on a very long road. Ahhh, you must be the Zen master then if you can suffer these sorts of things and not complain or feel as if you've lost something. You're right, things change, doesn't mean we should be expected to just roll over and accept it though. Also, doesn't mean that it's a "non-issue". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bm330 Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Career progression has been a long established element in the determination of benifits - not just in the aviation world either. If an open ended system in terms of retirement is actually established, any number of CBA elements become free to reconsider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milehighclub Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Maybe, just maybe..... timing would be perfect to switch for a status pay system Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dropzone Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Really? Is that how it works at all of the other airlines in Canada? Stop looking at the issue as if AC is the only planet in the universe and you will see that it is a non-issue except for those who subscribe to the notion of predictable advancement. If you think that there are no consequences for YOUR airline then you do not have any understanding of the issue. For AC everyone will get hurt including those who think they have won something. As I said SOME pilots will not be able to retire ever.....it means literally working til death. Pension and GDIIP issues are just the tip of the berg..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IFG Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Thanks for the excellent reply, Vs' - .... The problem is not what happens the week after one turns 60. It is in finding out when that person is no longer fit .... ------ & ------ .... There is not a single change to risk mitigation in place to address an unbounded upper age .... That's the rub, isn't it? I'm not asserting that the CHRC's decision may/will not have consequences, possibly ugly ones; I was bemoaning some of the claptrap about pilots aged 60+, which you seemed to endorse (to my own disapppointment), tho' I'm not sure whether on grounds of ethics, economics or safety . And I remain concerned when some try to wave the safety flag indiscriminately over an issue primarily of economic concern to them. A little diversion - Folks' feelings about retirement seem to be governed more by their own age cohort than anything else. I remember, several years ago, AC's Pensions Chairman advising me not to waste "negotiating dollars" on any early retirement arrangements - that it was pushed from the middle ranks, and in his experience, somehow, by retirement time very few actually took it up. I don't know if these two guys (& there supporters) felt at 40+ that they would be wanting to extend their time, and I'm not convinced that none of the loudmouths here will ever try to extend beyond 60 when their time comes, either . Cheers, IFG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Vs, IFG, great posts. Work longer?! You have to be joking. I stayed to 60 because I loved the work but I happily retired not only because that was the deal when I joined but "it was time" and I am very glad to have a life outside the airline and for the most part, outside aviation. There is so little time we are given and so much to do beyond the airline. Why anyone would ever want to stay past 60, especially the way the industry has gone, is a complete mystery. Seems like it's only money and nothing else that motivates staying to god-knows-what-age now. I know money was the only motivation in how this all started. Doing something only for the money never seems to work out because once bitten, there never seems enough and you wake up to find the ladder of "success" you've climbed was against the wrong wall. Flying airplanes is a great way to spend a career but there is a time for everything including getting out of the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Don, thanks for joining this discussion. More than a few times lately I have been wondering how you viewed the issue. As always, words worth reading twice. IFG, it sounds like we are on the same page. I too have seen too many self serving agendas wrapped in flags of convenience. Safety, dignity, all sorts of important and lofty terms have been hijacked for personal gain. My concern is indeed broader than safety. But safety is front and centre among what worries me. Ethically, what I see is the personal gain agenda pushing out all of the legitimate questions about how all this plays out. It's important as well to keep in mind that, as much as the opponents of flypast60 have grabbed onto any handhold, some inappropriate, the reputations of some of these opponents have been attacked by the plaintiffs using tactics that I would love to see discussed at the CHRT. I don't know what forums you haunt, but it has been hard for me to see just who the 'victims' and 'attackers' truly are in this. One thing is for sure. The CHRT has indicated that implementation is going to be difficult, and in that I wholeheartedly agree. Those outside AC may wonder what all the fuss is about, but for those on the inside of a company teetering on the brink, with hair-trigger corporate opportunists constantly prowling, this event may well spell the end of the AC career that many of us, including some of the plaintiffs, signed up for. Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckedy Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 I wonder what will happen to Train to Standard?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 That's been raised already. TC never liked it, management never did either. I can't predict the future, but it is a soft target. Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rozar s'macco Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 More for the boomers, as per usual. And they call us the ME generation. Right.... As one wag said on the ACPA forum, at least now I can tune out when one of the senior set attempts to dress me down about "that's the way it's always been..." and "you'll get your turn"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 So are the medical evaluations going to be amended to add that if you are past 60 instead if a finger you get the while hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AIP Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 This all about greed. Nothing More. Anybody saying anything else is a liar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Say Altitude Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Just heard that ACPA shut down their own members only forum because of all the mudslinging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AIP Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Just heard that ACPA shut down their own members only forum because of all the mudslinging. yup, I personally am hoping they make it permanent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluemic Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 yup, I personally am hoping they make it permanent. Why ever would you hope that? The ACPA forum CAN serve a useful purpose. It acts as a kind of virtual union hall where the members can discuss with (and inform) others (of) their ideas/viewpoints/feedback/etc. And they can do so in a place where they aren't "airing the dirty linen". Or do you perhaps think being able to post on a totally public board like this one - while hiding behind a pseudonym - is a better idea... Pearson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 of course it serves a purpose, when the people involved are being constructive. When the mud starts to fly it rapidly declines into a playground of kindergartners bickering. at some point you just take your ball and go home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AME Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 This all about greed. Nothing More. Anybody saying anything else is a liar. I haven't read much of this thread but thought I would throw my two cents in. It may have started out as strictly a greed issue as you claim but it is also a violation of the charter of rights, could you imagine the uproar if suddenly the majority of the ACPA members were under 40 years old and negotiated a contract that said you had to be under 50 to hold a Captains position? As I see it there is little difference between forcing someone out the door and dictating their seat. (Note: I know it will never happen but the principle is the same IMO) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicoChico Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Thanks for that Mike, I sincerely hope its not permanent too! Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airways Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Rick, Any word on when the adults are going to turn the power back on. Thanks Airways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted August 31, 2009 Share Posted August 31, 2009 Rick, Any word on when the adults are going to turn the power back on. Thanks Airways Probably when they are no longer afraid of libel suits. This forum handles things somewhat differently and simply puts a offenders status into one that all of their posts must be vetted by the forum administer before being posted. Past practise shows that this is a much better way of handling a problem that by shutting an entire board down. Those who deserve a spanking get one and those who don't continue to enjoy their privileges. At least according to the posting rules for this forum. http://forum.aeforum.net/index.php?showtop...dpost&p=1514661 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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