Air Canada pilot strike vote open.

[J.O.]

1 hour ago, Seeker said:

So, the railway workers are forced back to work and two years from now the Supreme Court deems the gov's action illegal - what are the implications, what remedy or compensation is due?

I see the AC pilots in the same situation; it goes to midnight and they're out on the street (strike or lockout) after a short period (couple of days or a week) the gov instructs the CIRB to direct them to arbitration and they go back to work.  The arbitration process results in a new contract and 2 years later the Supreme Court says the whole thing was illegal.  Now what?  Too bad, so sad and the pilots get nothing?

IMHO, the court would only be ruling on the constitutionality of the government's action to end the rail lockout. Whatever collective agreements may result from the government's intervention are not grist for that particular mill. So as Turbofan rightly suggests, you have to go to the table aiming to get the best deal you can because whether or not you were ordered back to work won't matter. The courts will never force the cork back into the bottle in that regard.

Edited August 26 by J.O.

[Seeker]

27 minutes ago, J.O. said:

IMHO, the court would only be ruling on the constitutionality of the government's action to end the rail lockout. Whatever collective agreements may result from the government's intervention are not grist for that particular mill. 

Yes, that's what I'm saying.  The arbitration comes to a new contract and that bargaining cycle is done.  If the court decides the gov acted illegally, so what?  They have a contract and there's nothing due to them for what they lost in the process.  The only way to get a better contract is next bargaining cycle.  This completely undermines the worker's rights.  The only "cost" to the gov is being seen by the public as having intervened and, TBH, most people don't care, they just don't want to be inconvenienced.

[conehead]

This completely undermines the collective bargaining process, and effectively negates a unions' right to withdraw services. Very sad.

[dagger]

1 hour ago, conehead said:

This completely undermines the collective bargaining process, and effectively negates a unions' right to withdraw services. Very sad.

Well, I don't think so, you have to be smart about it, like Unifor does with the Auto companies, taking them on one-by-one even though the contracts have a similar expiry. The Teamsters could have picked one railway for a pattern and slow-walked the other, and then the public impact wouldn't have been so great or immediate that rapid intervention was required. Of anything, that would have inflicted a lot more hurt on the company being struck because some business - containers and piggyback, for example - could have moved to the other, operating railway

Edited August 26 by dagger

[Vsplat]

One of my sons is deep in the AI world of bots and authenticity monitoring.  He has been saying for some time that there is a bot driven move toward more 'general strike' models, the goal being to trigger a total, general strike and bring down one or more layers of government. 

It's not hard to guess where many of these bots trace their origins to.  Suffice it to say, it is not a grass roots movement, more a matter of influencing the grass roots. 

Whether to believe that this is so is up to the reader, but it might lend some explanation as to why a total railroad shutdown, with all of its tactical disadvantages to the union, was chosen over the approach suggested above by Dagger.

Vs

 

[Seeker]

29 minutes ago, dagger said:

Well, I don't think so, you have to be smart about it, like Unifor does with the Auto companies, taking them on one-by-one even though the contracts have a similar expiry. The Teamsters could have picked one railway for a pattern and slow-walked the other, and then the public impact wouldn't have been so great or immediate that rapid intervention was required. Of anything, that would have inflicted a lot more hurt on the company being struck because some business - containers and piggyback, for example - could have moved to the other, operating railway

Hello dagger, glad to see your participation.

The unions did attempt to stagger the negotiations and this was rejected by the corporations.  I believe this was done to bring the most pressure possible on the government to intervene by the corporations!  It's clear they had no desire to actually negotiate believing the feds would intervene as they did.  They anticipated and planned the shutdown and the CIRB order.

https://teamsters.ca/blog/2024/06/07/cn-and-cpkc-reject-offer-to-stagger-negotiations/

 

 

[deicer]

46 minutes ago, Vsplat said:

One of my sons is deep in the AI world of bots and authenticity monitoring.  He has been saying for some time that there is a bot driven move toward more 'general strike' models, the goal being to trigger a total, general strike and bring down one or more layers of government. 

It's not hard to guess where many of these bots trace their origins to.  Suffice it to say, it is not a grass roots movement, more a matter of influencing the grass roots. 

Whether to believe that this is so is up to the reader, but it might lend some explanation as to why a total railroad shutdown, with all of its tactical disadvantages to the union, was chosen over the approach suggested above by Dagger.

Vs

 

Not to hijack the thread, however your point is very valid in my opinion.  Just look at all the cyber attacks, botfarms, etc.

This is where WW3 is being waged.

[Seeker]

1 hour ago, Vsplat said:

 

Whether to believe that this is so is up to the reader, but it might lend some explanation as to why a total railroad shutdown, with all of its tactical disadvantages to the union, was chosen over the approach suggested above by Dagger.

Vs

 

I think the explanation is much more basic.  The unions wanted to have staggered negotiations so they could leverage the losses of one company against the other and the companies wanted simultaneous negotiations so they could leverage the short but intense economic pressures against the unions.  The companies obviously knew (or guessed, fortuitously) that the government would force arbitration and end it and decided the cost of a shutdown for a few days was less than the cost of giving the employees what they wanted.

[Specs]

27 minutes ago, Seeker said:

 (or guessed, fortuitously) 

In the past 60 yrs there have been 35 cases of back to work legislation enacted by the Federal Government (Liberal and Conservatives) Most of those have been in the area of Transportation of Goods (the Ports, the Rail companies, Ship lines and even Airlines)  They account for 20% of GDP and few governments if any are gonna allow for that kind of loss to continue.

[Seeker]

Just now, Specs said:

In the past 60 yrs there have been 35 cases of back to work legislation enacted by the Federal Government (Liberal and Conservatives) Most of those have been in the area of Transportation of Goods (the Ports, the Rail companies, Ship lines and even Airlines)  They account for 20% of GDP and few governments if any are gonna allow for that kind of loss to continue.

So where is the balance between worker's rights and the company's economic interest?

I totally understand the importance of the transport industry but if the company can just refuse to bargain and rely on the gov to force the resolution there is no balance.  Maybe the entire transport industry should be an essential service with associated obligations on both parties?

[Malcolm]

39 minutes ago, Seeker said:

So where is the balance between worker's rights and the company's economic interest?

I totally understand the importance of the transport industry but if the company can just refuse to bargain and rely on the gov to force the resolution there is no balance.  Maybe the entire transport industry should be an essential service with associated obligations on both parties?

both are negated by the rights of Canadian Citizens(exonomic impact) vs that of Unions / businesses

[Seeker]

8 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

both are negated by the rights of Canadian Citizens(exonomic impact) vs that of Unions / businesses

Hah!  If that's true why not make them work for minimum wage?  Why not make everyone work for minimum wage?  It would certainly make things cheaper for the Canadian citizen.  In fact, why pay people anything at all - cheaper still.

[neverminds]

15 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

both are negated by the rights of Canadian Citizens(exonomic impact) vs that of Unions / businesses

Do not lump unions and businesses together. In this case business is laughing all the way to the bank while unions get screwed 

[Malcolm]

14 minutes ago, neverminds said:

Do not lump unions and businesses together. In this case business is laughing all the way to the bank while unions get screwed 

Perhaps some clarification of my position is due.

I said, in reply to [So where is the balance between worker's rights and the company's economic interest? ]"both are negated by the rights of Canadian Citizens(exonomic impact) vs that of Unions / businesses"

To be more specific, if AC pilots strike the impact on Canadians will be small as there will be fair number of seats available on other carriers. So no need for the Governement to legislate the AC group back to work (if they do go out).  ] 

The rail issue is a different kettle of fish, high economic impact on Canadians since there are no alternate railways that could be used to move our goods to / port.  So the legislation was warranted.

[Turbofan]

59 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

Perhaps some clarification of my position is due.

I said, in reply to [So where is the balance between worker's rights and the company's economic interest? ]"both are negated by the rights of Canadian Citizens(exonomic impact) vs that of Unions / businesses"

To be more specific, if AC pilots strike the impact on Canadians will be small as there will be fair number of seats available on other carriers. So no need for the Governement to legislate the AC group back to work (if they do go out).  ] 

The rail issue is a different kettle of fish, high economic impact on Canadians since there are no alternate railways that could be used to move our goods to / port.  So the legislation was warranted.

The only reason it was warranted was because of the simultaneous lockouts.  To take your logic to its end conclusion for the rail companies.

Always lock out simultaneously.  You will never have to negotiate.

Remember the Liberal Government just rewarded the rail lines behavior.  What happens if you reward bad behavior with your children?

Then again did the Government really get put in a corner by the rail yards?  The government didn't look all that upset.  They rushed in fast and then rewarded the rail companies.

Everyone can draw their own conclusions 

[FA@AC]

It’s perhaps worth nothing, but the rumor mill has it that AC plans to announce a lock out of ALPA to take effect as of the first day it can legally can.  Reminds one of how AC had things choreographed with the Harper government once upon a time.  Again, perhaps nothing to the rumor, but I hope that AC and the government don’t get away with what Harper’s gang did should they be planning to try a 2024 version of it.

[Seeker]

1 minute ago, FA@AC said:

It’s perhaps worth nothing, but the rumor mill has it that AC plans to announce a lock out of ALPA to take effect as of the first day it can legally can. 

I also expect this.  No doubt they are hoping for the same sort of government intervention.

[Turbofan]

10 minutes ago, FA@AC said:

It’s perhaps worth nothing, but the rumor mill has it that AC plans to announce a lock out of ALPA to take effect as of the first day it can legally can.  Reminds one of how AC had things choreographed with the Harper government once upon a time.  Again, perhaps nothing to the rumor, but I hope that AC and the government don’t get away with what Harper’s gang did should they be planning to try a 2024 version of it.

Sounds like AC management bravado. 

In Canada a lockout is treated outside the airlines control when it comes to the passenger bill of rights.

Not so in the EU.  Locking us out would be costly.

[Turbofan]

Remember this is not 2011.

Advanced bookings are being impacted.  This did not happen in 2011.

Air Canada will need to wind down their operation. Didn't happen in 2011

They will have to endure a strike for at least a few days.  Did not happen in 2011

Then they have to wind back up operations.  Did not happen in 2011.

Passenger compensation may need to be paid.  Did not happen in 2011.

Refunds will be required.  Did not happen in 2011.

If we get forced back to work. AC will not have a back to work protocol temporarily suspending the contract.

The Ministerial order could get quashed at any time causing this to start all over again.

AC has a long history of not being able to negotiate with it's unions.  If it starts again it won't be good for the stock price.  It's low now as institutional investors watch.

AC has 90 aircraft on order and is having trouble attracting pilots.

The pilots just want their pre bankruptcy contract back.

But yes AC could lock us out and wait for intervention.  But that has always been a possibility. The difference here is that it may have gotten faster and cheaper.

In 2011 pilots did not have much in the way of options.  Today that is not the case.  The entire world, well almost, pays better.  Medivac companies pay better.  WJ pays 30% better.  Corporate jobs pay better.

AC will have an exodus if they manage to find a way to not pay the going rate.  Probably not the top half of the list.  But the bottom half will see people leaving.

The only reason AC is able to still hire is because those pilots expect the pay is about to change. 

If it doesn't?  AC simply will not meet its expansion plans.

We all know what AC management is like.  They are bullies.  But they are not stupid bullies

So chill. We will be smart and go to war with cards we have been dealt.

If they pull a CN?  This pilot group has made sure their lack of goodwill can be seen and heard for over a year.  The company won't admit it but people are, for the most part, not helping.  No extra mile.  

It particularly shows when a weather event happens and they struggle to recover.

If they want goodwill?  They will have to display some themselves.

In the mean time, over the next few weeks pressure on forward bookings will go into overdrive.

[Malcolm]

6 hours ago, Turbofan said:

The only reason it was warranted was because of the simultaneous lockouts.  To take your logic to its end conclusion for the rail companies.

Always lock out simultaneously.  You will never have to negotiate.

Remember the Liberal Government just rewarded the rail lines behavior.  What happens if you reward bad behavior with your children?

Then again did the Government really get put in a corner by the rail yards?  The government didn't look all that upset.  They rushed in fast and then rewarded the rail companies.

Everyone can draw their own conclusions 

And you seem to forget the following, 

• News about Teamsters Canada Serves Strike Notice On Both Cana…

  Ottawa, May 1, 2024 – The Teamsters Canada Rail Conference (TCRC) today announced that close to 10,000 workers at CN and CPKC have voted to authorize strikes at both companies. Unless parties can reach an agreement, a work stoppage can occur as early as May 22, at 00:01.

[Turbofan]

Moeman,

It is normal, almost always infact, that lockout/strike happen simultaneously.  It is how it works.  Lawyers joke that the only difference between a lockout or strike is who got in line first.

What is not normal and rarely seen is one side moving to strike or lockout and the other side not.

It happens when one side knows or suspects they are being set up.

The fact that the CN Union did not file strike notice in August while the two companies filed lockout notice is telling.  

The Union knew it was a set up.

Much the same with ACPA in 2011.  ACPA outright refused to file strike notice.  Finally AC got fed up and locked the pilots out.

Harper sold the narrative he was stopping a strike.

It is simply how this stuff works when the issue involves politicians.  They paint themselves as virtuous.

It becomes a game.  It's theater.

[Seeker]

6 hours ago, Malcolm said:

And you seem to forget the following, 

• News about Teamsters Canada Serves Strike Notice On Both Cana…

  Ottawa, May 1, 2024 – The Teamsters Canada Rail Conference (TCRC) today announced that close to 10,000 workers at CN and CPKC have voted to authorize strikes at both companies. Unless parties can reach an agreement, a work stoppage can occur as early as May 22, at 00:01.

 

Read that carefully - they were both voting to authorize a strike - that's not the same as serving strike notice.  The headline is misleading.

In fact the union offered to stagger the negotiations back in May/June to prevent the simultaneous lockout or strike and the companies refused to accept it.  This was because the companies knew if only one company was shutdown the chance of the gov intervening would be reduced.  The companies orchestrated the shutdown.  It was the companies who were holding the population hostage.  They obviously decided that the 3 or 4 day shutdown with gov intervention to end it would cost less than what the employees were asking for.

https://teamsters.ca/blog/2024/06/07/cn-and-cpkc-reject-offer-to-stagger-negotiations/

 

[Malcolm]

Air Canada offers rebooking flexibility for flights around possible strike date

Air Canada is offering passengers who have booked flights around the date of a possible strike by the airline's pilots next month some increased flexibility in rebooking their travel. An Air Canada Plane is seen at Pearson Airport in Toronto, Wednesday, July 24, 2024. THE CANADIAN PRESS/Christopher Katsarov© The Canadian Press

MONTREAL — Air Canada is offering passengers who have booked flights around the date of a possible pilot strike next month some increased flexibility in rebooking their travel.

The airline says progress has been made in its negotiations and it hopes to reach a deal, but it still faces the possibility of a strike by its 5,400 pilots as early as Sept. 17.

 

The Air Line Pilots Association has not set a strike date, but the pilots have voted overwhelmingly to approve a strike mandate if an agreement on a new contract cannot be reached.

Under the airline's policy, customers with tickets for travel between Sept. 15 and 23 can rebook on any other Air Canada flight with the same origin and destination up to Nov. 30 at no additional cost. Customers who want to cancel and rebook their travel for after that date will have their change fees waived but will have to pay any fare difference.

Travellers with bookings during the affected period may also cancel their flight and receive a credit for future travel.

Refunds will be available for customers with refundable tickets, but Air Canada says refunds will not be available for those with non-refundable tickets as the flights are scheduled to operate as normal.

 

The policy applies to all Air Canada-operated flights, including Air Canada mainline, Air Canada Rouge, Air Canada Express flights operated by Jazz or PAL Airlines, and Air Canada Vacations.

This report by The Canadian Press was first published Aug. 27, 2024.

Companies in this story: (TSX:AC)

The Canadian Press

[Malcolm]

Air Canada pilots to hold 'information' picket line outside of Vancouver airport (msn.com)

[UpperDeck]

A quick read of the various posts leads one to the conclusion that posters generally concur:

1) Corporations are greedy and evil;

2) Unions are solely motivated by the desire to enhance the well-being of their members;

3) compulsory arbitration breaches the right of workers to collectively withdraw their services;

4) airline pilots should be paid "significant" salaries and receive enhanced benefits regardless of the impact on other employees and the employer simply because there is a shortage of pilots. This notwithstanding that SOME current airline pilots really aren't pilots in that "old fashioned way" and can't distinguish between taxiways and causeways and runways and apparently are puzzled by the impact of ice formation on the aircraft wings!!

Just poking a little at "the beast". In a past life, I dealt marginally with municipal unions....fire and police....each seeking parity with each other and province wide regardless of risk. We couldn't negotiate with those unions in good conscience and went to arbitration. We ALWAYS lost.