Mitch Cronin Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 I'm refinishing our dining room table... it's very old - possibly cherry (a good friend has provided me with two 14 inch cherry inserts that look a lot more red, but he maintains the original is indeed cherry) - I've sanded all the old (almost black - so dark that MOST of the incredibly beautiful grain was hidden!) finish off the whole thing, legs, side skirts and all, down to bare wood.... I'd like to highlight the grain somewhat with a stain (not too dark, and probably a tinge on the red side to try to match the cherry inserts)... and then finish the top with something that won't mind having spilled milk or hot plates on it... I really haven't much a clue how to proceed? I want to go nuts with a really fine sanding, and one thought was to mix a little of whatever stain I want with some boiled linseed oil... apply that to the whole thing, let that dry and then varnish the top only. ...perhaps wet sanding between coats of varnish? ....but I don't know if varnish would work alright over oil... and I don't know if a spar varnish (for example) would stand up to the sorts of spills and hot things our family may dish out?.... And, I don't know if there are better products than spar varnish for that sort of thing?.... and I don't know if wet sanded (with like a 600 or even maybe 1000 grit wet/dry paper) varnish would look alright? .... What I'm after is a very polished, high gloss look that won't look as though the whole thing is plastic coated (like you see on tables in some restaurants) that's durable, and stain-proof.... Am I dreaming? Any hints/tips/advice would be greatly appreciated! I've been trying to hunt around through google for some help, but so far I've found that the really nice finishes people talk about would probably leave one crying over spilt milk (so to speak ) Cheers, Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Mitch; There will be many ways to do the job but to begin I would try Lee Valley Tools for both advice and materials. There is a Lee Valley Tools store in Burlington, just off Guelph Line at the 403. Here's the link: Lee Valley Tools - Burlington Store Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 I'm almost scared to make this recommendation since I've seen people react quite vehemently to it - but have you considered putting glass on top? My father-in-law, who is a very accomplished woodworker, built a teak dining room table and, rather than making the compromise for the most durable finish over the best looking finish simply had a sheet of tempered glass cut to size. Now he has both. I was a little nervous about the glass top but it's survived more than 20 years in a house with 8 kids. On the rare day that the insert is needed the glass is short at one end but for the rest of the time it looks right at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 13, 2009 Share Posted August 13, 2009 Mitch, Varnish over oil will result in Fish eye. WHen applying stain, apply in liberal amounts aND LET SOAK FOR A FEW HOURS, THEN REMOVE RESIDUE WITH CHEESE CLOTHE, yo will see that the majority of the stain will come off leaving a fine stain. Allow to dry for a few days afterwards. I usually go over the area after with some good old fashon elbow grease with the cheese clothe again to make sure that there is no residue. Give a wash down with a clothe damp with rubbing alcohol and then apply you varathane coating. You can use high glass or sating finish, when applying, use a very high quality brush, put on in light coats, let it dry and use 500 grit and give the coating a fine sanding before applyin the next coat of varathane. Use oil based, not water based I have an old table from 1912 that some one painted white with cheap paint, it took me months of sanding the get it all out and then restain and varnish aftewards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted August 13, 2009 Author Share Posted August 13, 2009 Cool! Ok, in order.... Don: Thanks for that... I've looked through Lee Valley (from your link) and found some nice products that I think I'll go for... My friend (who provided the cherry leaves (leafs?)) tells me there's a Lee Valley store much closer to home, and I do believe that's where I'll go. Seeker: Tempered glass sounds like an excellent plan, but for the shortness when either one or both inserts are installed.... and I'm reckoning that'd be the time when I'd really want the thing to look it's best. ....I do know tempered glass would handle it well though... I've seen glass coffee tables survive some pretty wild treatment! Rob: Many thanks. I didn't know that about oil and varnish (fish-eye).... so I'll talk to the folks at Lee Valley about some kind of an oil-like stain that would go with whatever they're going to sell me for the final top finish. .... some of their wood dyes look intriguing for possibilities of matching the colours (my buddy says now he thinks the original cherry may have been bleached? - no idea why anyone would do that to cherry?.... I'm just a tad doubtful about his identification of the wood type, but I'll be buggered if I know what it is if it's not cherry! It's way too detailed looking to be yellow birch or oak, and the grain really does look an awful lot like the cherry he gave me - but there's only a few hints of the red in only a few spots.... the rest looks way whiter.... ) ....so again, thanks, to y'all! Cheers, Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 My friend tells me there's a Lee Valley store much closer to home, and I do believe that's where I'll go. I've been in one fairly close to Pearson Airport, if you ever go near that place any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Mitch: this might help you find that "closer" store. http://www.leevalley.com/home/Stores.aspx?c=2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.O. Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 The Lee Valley in Scarbaria on Morningside will be the best option for you Mitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 JO, rattler, conehead, moi?; Mitch - you be careful. These guys are all a bunch of enablers, y'know. Poor Mitch, rather poor Ms. Mitch. There is a Lee Valley here but it is far away from White Rock and it is a very good thing, my lovely lady says. Mitch, I advise you to take a non-enabling buddy or a complete stranger to the store, give your credit card to them and order through them. Going into Lee Valley is very hazardous especially for those addicted to quality materials, fine tools and beautiful things! A visit there may not satisfy the V8 gene or the kerosene gene but it's the next best thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.O. Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Hey Don. It's the lovely lady of the house who has to be curtailed when we pay (pardon the pun) a visit Lee Valley. She's addicted to their gardening toys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Mitch, I've had excellent results with Watco Danish oil. It comes in natural or with several stains including cherry. I've used 3 coats a day apart using 400 wet/dry paper to get a beautiful finish. However, this will not provide the hard top you want. Will require a topcoat of clear Varathane or something similar. Just a thought. I recently made several trips to the Ottawa Lee Valley store while building a painter box for my sister. First class place with many beautiful toys. Lee Valley stores: Toronto East - 1275 Morningside Ave. 416-286-7574 Toronto Downtown - 590 King St. West 416-366-5959 Toronto West - 5701 Steeles Ave. West 416-746-0850 Good luck. This kind of work can be very satisfying or very frustrating. Hard work and patience required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 JO; It's the lovely lady of the house who has to be curtailed when we pay (pardon the pun) a visit Lee Valley. She's addicted to their gardening toys! I'm not telling - may give her ideas! The D300 is performing wonderfully, by the way - had it just over a year and a half now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Specs Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 The Lee Valley in Scarbaria on Morningside will be the best option for you Mitch. North of the 401 and north of Sheppard on the west side. Second driveway I think. It's a redbrick factory unit. In case you need to know - Home depot is nearby, on the southwest corner behind the Esso gas station. Just a forewarning though - the showroom floor is decent enough and the staff are quite knowledgeable re their products but if you need to buy you fill out a paper slip and hand it in at the desk - a bit like Consumers Distributing if you go back that far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Specs Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Hey Don. It's the lovely lady of the house who has to be curtailed when we pay (pardon the pun) a visit Lee Valley. She's addicted to their gardening toys! Get her a power rake. Raking leaves was never this quick or easy when I was growing up. I rarely use the leaf blower anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cp fa Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 Mitch, I was going to tell you not to use linseed oil before you varnish, but that's already been covered. If you can, test the stain/finish you're thinking of using on an area that won't show before you start. Have a look at it under the lighting conditions where it's going to be located. And if you're not sure which colour to go with, start with a lighter shade. You can always go darker, but you can't go lighter if you decide the stain you apply is too dark. You should be able to find a finish that's spill-proof, but I doubt you'll be able to find anything that's heat resistant. Keep in mind that if you use an oil based finish, it will darken over time, a water based finish will stay clear. I'm sure whatever you do will be perfect, and if it's not, just tell people you were going for a rustic look. That's what I always do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted August 14, 2009 Author Share Posted August 14, 2009 ....once again, thank you ALL for the tips, addresses, phone #'s, hints and warnings. Now don't anyone try to tell me you can't learn anything here! Cheers, Mitch PS Conehead... was back today, for the first time in a long while. ...scary place, that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 JO, rattler, conehead, moi?; Mitch - you be careful. These guys are all a bunch of enablers, y'know. Poor Mitch, rather poor Ms. Mitch. There is a Lee Valley here but it is far away from White Rock and it is a very good thing, my lovely lady says. Mitch, I advise you to take a non-enabling buddy or a complete stranger to the store, give your credit card to them and order through them. Going into Lee Valley is very hazardous especially for those addicted to quality materials, fine tools and beautiful things! A visit there may not satisfy the V8 gene or the kerosene gene but it's the next best thing. There is no Lee Valley store in White Rock! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 JO, rattler, conehead, moi?; Mitch - you be careful. These guys are all a bunch of enablers, y'know. Poor Mitch, rather poor Ms. Mitch. There is a Lee Valley here but it is far away from White Rock and it is a very good thing, my lovely lady says. Mitch, I advise you to take a non-enabling buddy or a complete stranger to the store, give your credit card to them and order through them. Going into Lee Valley is very hazardous especially for those addicted to quality materials, fine tools and beautiful things! A visit there may not satisfy the V8 gene or the kerosene gene but it's the next best thing. Mitch, come visist me in Ottawa, the Lee Valley head office is here, Mecca I tell you Mecca, oh ya, bring the line of credit with you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinnaker Posted August 14, 2009 Share Posted August 14, 2009 For domestic reasons, I'm not allowed at Lee Valley anymore. Great store... and the catalog is terrorizing. Just an observation from re-doing exterior boat wood. I found the gloss finishes from various products broke down fast to UV heat. I've switched to using just teak oil. Mulitple coats of oil and my teak looks great with a low sheen luster and really highlights the grain. Easy to apply and keep up too. I also have the interior boat teak and do the same regularly with areas exposed to rain in the companionway. The multiple coats of oil seem to protect the wood while letting it still breath. I've done the same with a very old mahogany wood chest in the living room at home and it holds up very well to two varmits, their toys and liquids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 One very neat area of the Lee Valley web site is the one entitled special offers (can be found under every major heading), Just make sure your credit card has a usable balance before going there though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pager Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 You can go to Mecca and play with the toys if you sign up for one of Lee Valley's in-store Seminars. Seriously good ... just resist the temptation ... only bring home the authorized purchases Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Check Pilot Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 The Lee Valley seminars are conducted by superb and experienced craftsmen. These guys knew what they were doing because it's how they make their living. I went to one a few (maybe 5) years ago and learned a whole lot about wood and it's attributes. They covered everything from the basics of how to make it from scratch to the final finish. There was special emphasis on just what finish you wanted to what you might need to do for older existing wood furniture. Unfortunately, or maybe not unfortunately, more likely luckily, I walked out 3 hours later with about $300.00 worth of stuff that still makes it's way to some of the wood stuff we have in the house. Even wifey stopped her bit##ing about the money after a treatment of our prized OAK TABLE with one of their products. These guys are good at what they do. Take it in if you get the chance. It's well worth the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted August 15, 2009 Share Posted August 15, 2009 Mitch, thanks for this great thread! Lee Valley has also laid claim to my heart and much of my income, however before you make the pilgrimage, I suggest you check out the following sites for refinishing advice. http://forum.canadianwoodworking.com/ http://www.canadianhomeworkshop.com/forum/ http://www.sawmillcreek.org/index.php I'd echo the recommendations for LV seminars. They fill up fast in our area, so you may need to stretch out your planning calendar to incorporate the next one. Refinishing can be very satisfying, but it can also drive you insane, especially with older finishes. The last thing you want is to apply a new finish that has an unexpected and permanent result. You will get all sorts of advice on sanding. I suggest not over doing it on the bare wood. You want to create a level surface without scratch marks (see below), that can accept a finish. Careful with anything over the mid-300s on bare wood. Save the really fine stuff for post finishing. Random orbital sanders are worth considering for jobs like this. You'll also have to remember that you have to remove anything the sanding process itself introduces before applying a finish. For example, sanding scratches won't always be visible until the surface is wet. Depending on what finish you are going with, there are ways to test the surface. For example, if you are going with a mineral-spirit soluble finish, you can in advance wipe a clean cloth dampened with mineral spirits over the surface to reveal scratches. The spirits will evaporate quickly, so you'll need to work in small patches, you already know about ventilation and spark hazards. Some of the better polyurethane finishes can build up to the look you are after, without looking like plastic. Some products also incorporate stain, so look around after you've talked to the pros. Wipe on polyurethane goes on very thin, dries very fast (i.e. less time for dust to settle), doesn't need a ton of sanding and builds up coat after coat. Be very careful incorporating the new cherry with the old. The different generation of woods may accept the same stain very differently. Echo the advice on trying a hidden area first. The grain patterns will have a role to play as well. In cases where you aren't getting consistent results, you can apply a pre-treatment (conditioner is one term for it), that results in a more consistent look. This is a trade-off decision, so the store should have some samples for you to see and evaluate for yourself. If not, then best to create your own samples at home, finish them completely (i.e. all the way to your desired look) , then take go to the actual piece. Just beware that the smoother you make it, the more any blemish will show. I don't know of any high gloss wood finish that is impervious to a hot plate. I hope this helps. Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted August 15, 2009 Author Share Posted August 15, 2009 Wow! Thank you V-splat! I just got lost, for a long while, reading through those forums you linked. ...what a wealth of information! I started doing this with a heat gun and putty knife, but as soon as I figured out that whatever small marks I made in this rather hard wood wouldn't be as deep as the stain I was going to sand out of it anyway, I moved to a paint scraper to get the shellac (or varnish?) off. When that was gone, and after I'd been sanding it with 120 on a drywall block for a few days, I switched to 80 grit and went for a few more days (not at all equal to 8 man-hours a day! ).... When my friend came by with the two leaves, he brought his router (to match the sides of the leaves with the tabletop), and a random orbital sander. You're right. Damned handy tool, that! It got me through the stain really well. (I went very carefully!.... and I stuck with doing the legs by hand) So now, after having followed the sander by block sanding it with the grain, with the same 80 grit again, I've moved back to 120 and plan on following your advice. Again, thank you. My wife has recently assured me she's "hard-wired to not put hot things on bare tables".... Cheers, Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted August 15, 2009 Author Share Posted August 15, 2009 Thanks Check Pilot. I'm not sure I could stand the squawking I'd hear if I blew 300 bucks in 3 hours. ....I'd like to sit in on such a seminar, but I don't think I can wait that long to finish this thing. The temporary table we're using is generating a lot of noise from at least two directions at dinnertime. ... While they head off to the jym I'm left wondering why they don't just stay here and do the sanding for me! Thanks again to all of you for your help... Rob, I think we're likely to meet again in YYZ before I get back to Ottawa... Little darlin' seems to have some bad memories of that place. Cheers, Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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