jump seat Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Broken bones major Air France clue "Typically, if you see intact bodies and multiple fractures – arm, leg, hip fractures – it's a good indicator of a mid-flight break up," said Frank Ciacco, a former forensic expert at the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board. "Especially if you're seeing large pieces of aircraft as well." http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/652774 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 That sort of talk kinda creeps me out.... ...I can't help wondering if people might have been aware and feeling the terror and pain of being broken up and falling.... yikes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timothy Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 Last photo of F-GZCP. http://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-France/...-203/1539421/L/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 PARIS - Air France will compensate the families of the victims of a June 1 crash in which 228 people died, the company's chief executive said on Friday. Flight AF 447 from Rio de Janeiro to Paris crashed into the Atlantic after flying into stormy weather. The causes of the crash are not known. Brazilian and French ships are still searching the ocean for debris and bodies. "For now we are going to concentrate on the first advance that will be paid for each victim, approximately 17,500 euros ($24,420)," Air France CEO Pierre-Henri Gourgeon said on RTL radio. "The lawyers of our insurers in every country are talking to the victims' families to try and organize this advance payment," he said. Gourgeon presented the payments as a compassionate gesture from the airline, not an admission of liability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted June 19, 2009 Share Posted June 19, 2009 Interesting article regarding the accident. http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0619/p02s01-usgn.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon The Loon Posted June 20, 2009 Share Posted June 20, 2009 Notwithstanding a sentence written by a journalist, "All of that, aviation experts have said, points to a mid-air rupture of the plane at about 35,000 feet." http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/06/19...rash/index.html Very few phenomena could produce a "mid-air rupture of the plane." I hope the Brazilian forensics report everything they find, truthfully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 I hope so too, Moon. I see they're beginning to scale down the search for parts and bodies. Don't think that means the sub searches are scaled down - I would think they'd continue long past the time when the pingers are supposed to go silent because they can pick up large metal bits. Large, intact bits and pieces, little deformation, little impact damage. Interesting. Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted June 25, 2009 Share Posted June 25, 2009 Air France says pilot's body identified after crash Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:41am EDT PARIS (Reuters) - The body of the pilot of an Air France plane that crashed into the Atlantic on June 1 has been identified among dozens that have been recovered from the ocean, the airline said Thursday. All 228 people on board the Airbus 330 died when it crashed for unknown reasons during a flight from Rio de Janeiro to Paris. "Among the victims who have been recovered from the ocean, two members of the crew of flight AF 447 have been identified to date: the captain and a steward," Air France said in a statement posted on its website. Brazilian and French ships are still searching the remote area where the plane is believed to have crashed for bodies and wreckage. The flight recorders or "black boxes" have not been found. People from 32 nationalities died in the crash. Among them were 61 French nationals and 58 Brazilians. Autopsies on more than 50 bodies recovered from the ocean are being carried out in Brazil. French authorities have given few details of the findings. (Reporting by Estelle Shirbon) © Thomson Reuters 2009 All rights reserved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 Looks like NW just had a similar problem losing all airspeed indications, autopilot, auto-throttles and rudder limit protection. They lost all indications for 3 minutes on a flight from HKG to NRT. Got the speed back but remained in alternate law for the remainder of the flight. This is a series flaw of this type and drastic measures need to be made IMO. Good thing NW didn't have the weather that AF had! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 Getting to the point where grounding them may be necessary until the fix is found and done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted June 26, 2009 Share Posted June 26, 2009 handyman; This is a series flaw of this type and drastic measures need to be made IMO. Sorry, not sure what you mean, "series flaw of this type", meaning the A330 "type" or a "serious" flaw of this type", 'type' meaning pitot failures? To be clear, I'm not being sarcastic here; I'm just trying to understand your point which is unclear. What kind of "drastic measures" were you contemplating? I would agree with you if it's "pitot" related but would not agree if it's a comment about the A330 "type" - reason below. boestar;Getting to the point where grounding them may be necessary until the fix is found and done. Well, not qute, boestar. For one thing not every A330 has been fitted with Thales pitot tubes. Most of the fleet have not demonstrated any problems. Also, the extent of the problem needs to be defined and I don't think it can be with what we know thus far. The NW/Delta A330 HKG - NRT incident is disconcerting as is the TAM and the earlier Air Caraibe incident. Clearly, more needs to be known about the AF and that source still lies at the bottom of the Atlantic. That said, it's probably wise to have some pitch and power setting numbers memorized and an understanding of what a static pressure failure looks like in cruise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Don: The point I was making (and poorly I might add) is the there seems to be a trend (for lack of a better term) of unpredictable failures of primary Pitit static instrumentation. So with that comes risk. If it has been determined that the Thales pitot probes are the problem then that problem needs to be adressed or some mitigating action needs to take place. in 4 or 5 instances we have had one major accident and 4 minor incidents. We are running 20% loss rate per failure. Ok I know thats a bogus number but still. At what point do we say "Hold up bub, fix this or I aint goin"? I do not know how many aircraft in the entire flying fleet are so equipped but at this moment there is RISK. Somehow that RISK needs to be managed and mitigated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 boestar; I do not know how many aircraft in the entire flying fleet are so equipped but at this moment there is RISK. Somehow that RISK needs to be managed and mitigated. Yes, see where you were going now, and fully agree. I don't think the AC 330s have the Thales installation but that's 2nd-hand. What's interesting is, the "automation" dialogue is bubbling to the surface and rightly so, given the other, broader trend slowly unfolding - experience, standards, and training - all have been slipping, not universally (never is) but there, all the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inchman Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 I don't think the AC 330s have the Thales installation but that's 2nd-hand. Air Canada's A330 aircraft are all equipped with Rosemount Aerospace pitot probes according to the A330 Fleet Manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon The Loon Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Focus, folks. Notwithstanding the installation issues, why did this airplane break apart in the air? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 You're right Moon man... There aren't too many ways it could have happened... Sadly, it's looking at this point as though we may not ever know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Why is the focus on the pitot probes themselves, and not the Probe Heat Computer? If the hypothesis is that the probes iced up, I'm quite sure the heating coils in all the probes did not fail at the same time. Wasn't there a fault message generated for the PHC from Air France? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon The Loon Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Why is the focus on the pitot probes themselves, and not the Probe Heat Computer? If the hypothesis is that the probes iced up, I'm quite sure the heating coils in all the probes did not fail at the same time. Wasn't there a fault message generated for the PHC from Air France? One or more might have physically broken off due to impact with hail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Hmmmmm..... I'm a little sceptical about that... but anything is possible. We might never know for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canus Chinookus Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Considering the size of the storms they were navigating, I think hail is entirely believable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted June 27, 2009 Share Posted June 27, 2009 Sorry, not sure what you mean, "series flaw of this type", meaning the A330 "type" or a "serious" flaw of this type", 'type' meaning pitot failures? To be clear, I'm not being sarcastic here; I'm just trying to understand your point which is unclear. What kind of "drastic measures" were you contemplating? You can't see it? Moon does! Plastic tails on commercial aircraft. This would include most Airbus types and of course the 777! Wonder why we haven't seen any 777 issues yet though? Implementing procedures requiring ultrasound or xray examination of the tail and tail brackets on a short cycle period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 Considering the size of the storms they were navigating, I think hail is entirely believable. Oh, I believe that they encountered hail, I just don't quite believe it would damage all of the pitot tubes to the point where they are all unusable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
13820 Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 One or more might have physically broken off due to impact with hail. I seriously doubt a pitot tube would break off due to a hail strike. A shattered radome I would believe. I've seen that on a smaller A/C. We will have to wait for the report of course. Very sad indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon The Loon Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 I seriously doubt a pitot tube would break off due to a hail strike. A shattered radome I would believe. I've seen that on a smaller A/C. We will have to wait for the report of course. Very sad indeed. When you hit a soft baseball at 480 knots, it's gonna hurt. I've encountered liquid water at FL390 over the Indian Ocean. The immensity and ferocity of these storms takes a lot of getting used to. But you are right: we have to wait. We may never know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest woxof Posted June 28, 2009 Share Posted June 28, 2009 Oh, I believe that they encountered hail, I just don't quite believe it would damage all of the pitot tubes to the point where they are all unusable. Why don't you just admit that you have no idea of what happened instead of concluding that they encountered hail. All this endless speculation based on assumptions with emphasis on ass. Example..... With more information out now(although no conclusion) on the Dash 8 accident in Buffalo, it appears to be headed toward a conclusion of pilot error with other background issues. Yet we had no less than the former head of the NTSB, a formerly respected person named Jim Hall calling for the grounding of all Dash-8's because he said they are dangerous in icing conditions. This is the kind of garbage we get from the speculations based on nothing although he is in a law firm now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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