Trader Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 From the books: M.80 WT 1.3g 1.4g Max Alt 240 365 350 358 230 374 359 363 220 383 368 375 210 393 377 385 M0.82 speeds are approx 300-400 feet lower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoomerPete Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 In my book an A330-200 at 350 may well have been at the max altitude for the weight they were at. If you cross a line of thunderstorms at that max altitude you will be hurting. Actually, not even close. I do about 7 flights a month on this aircraft usually departing at or near max gross weight for flight longer than the AF flight. The initial optimum altitude will usually be somewhere in the range of FL340-FL360, depending on the prevailing wind, temp. and CI in use. By the time we're down to 210T, about 3 hours later, we're generally seeing levels between FL360-FL380 as optimium for the flight. Any suggestions that the AF guys were operating the aircraft at too high a level for their weight or were anywhere near a "coffin corner" would be very unfair. The level chosen was certainly well within the normal range for the aircraft weight. In fact, perhaps the more appropriate question might be, were they flying too low? For every story like yours there are a fair bunch of stories of aircraft wandering into dry cells or turbulent conditions downwind of CB's that might have been much more easily avoided if the aircraft was in the clear and above the level of the tops. In the AF instance another aircraft was following it by only 10 minutes at FL370 and reported that nothing more than routine deviations were necessary to remain clear of the weather and out of any significant turbulence. Possibly, had AF chosen the same events would have unfolded differently. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chockalicious Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 Well this is kind of crazy... Could a meteor have brought down Air France 447? Today we are starting to see reports that there actually may have been a meteor: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon The Loon Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 Well this is kind of crazy... Could a meteor have brought down Air France 447? Today we are starting to see reports that there actually may have been a meteor: It IS going to happen one day... Or maybe it suffered the same conspiratorial demise of TWA800... If it was a meteor or re-entering piece of space junk, then we will never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moeman Posted June 7, 2009 Share Posted June 7, 2009 Anybody seen "Lost"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango Niner Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 It's amazing what can be deduced from forensic examinations of aircraft remains. If indeed it got struck down by a meteor (which I think highly unlikely), and IF they can find the majority of the wreckage, it's my belief that investigators would be able to detect such a bizarre extraterrestrial hit by analyzing the nature of the aircraft's structual damage. (for example, an inward-denting hole from above) T9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 There have been several references to "Space Junk" in this thread and the associated articles. Space Junk is very closely monitored bt Nasa and the Air Force in the US. This is necessary in order th "know" where the junk is when a shuttle flight (or other) is launched. The likelyhood of it being junk is low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon The Loon Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 The likelihood of it being junk is low. Agreed, but a possibility nonetheless. I think though the likelihood of a piece of normal "junk" to survive re-entry down to 35,000' to be extremely, remotely low, approaching a probability of 0 vs the probability of an actual meteor. Regardless, either possiblity extremely remote, but possible. I'm still thinking sinister but we'll have to wait for the residue tests to be completed, unless those tests are interfered with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Looks like there were 2 serivce bulletins, one in 2003 and the other in 2007. The one in 2007 evidently would have been addressing a problem with the Pitots on the A330 in question. AF447 investigators analyzing substantial data sent by doomed A330 Monday June 8, 2009 French officials investigating the loss of Air France Flight 447 are still processing reams of data yet to be publicly released that was transmitted by the A330-200's aircraft communications addressing and reporting system. The revelation, from a source with knowledge of the investigation into the loss of the aircraft carrying 228 passengers and crew, comes after bodies and wreckage from the A330 were recovered about 500 mi. northeast of the Fernando de Noronha archipelago (ATWOnline, June 5) . According to the Brazilian air force, the objects--the first recovered since the aircraft disappeared late on May 31--include a suitcase, an e-ticket, oxygen masks, a passenger seat, a backpack with a laptop and numerous personal effects. Searchers now have a more positive fix on the location of the remains of the jetliner to help in their search for the cockpit voice and flight data recorders. But according to ATWOnline's source, the amount of ACARS data has given the investigators "a pretty good idea" of what happened and finding the CVR and FDR may not be as critical to identifying the probable causes of the accident as first thought. It is understood that the aircraft transmitted 24 ACARS messages over 4 min. The disclosure came as the French BEA confirmed that the A330 had not been fitted with new, improved pitot probes as per a routine Airbus service bulletin issued in 2007. In an unrelated move, in 2003 Airbus issued a notice calling for replacement of pitot probes on some A330s because of a manufacturing defect that could result in erroneous speed data. "The sensors had not been replaced," BEA Director Paul-Louis Arslanian said. Airbus on Friday issued a reminder to all operators of its aircraft regarding the correct actions to be taken when confronted with differing speed indications on its various aircraft models. The warning in the form of an Airline Information Telex said there was an indication of "inconsistency between the different measured airspeeds" of AF447. The manufacturer added that "without prejudging the final outcome of the investigation, the data available leads Airbus to remind operators what are the applicable operational recommendations in case of unreliable airspeed indication." In the A330 manual, pilots also are warned to keep the aircraft within specified speed envelopes "so as to provide the best protection against the effect of gust on the structural limits." BEA has confirmed that AF447 was crossing a turbulent multicell convective area at the time of the accident and that failure maintenance messages were transmitted automatically from the aircraft. French daily Liberation reported that the survey vessel Pourquoi Pas will reach the search area on about June 11 or 12. It was stationed in the Azores and had to collect advice on detecting the homing signal of the aircraft's FDR from Cape Verde en route to the crash site. The FDR signal travels only 1,500 m. underwater and the crash site is as deep as 4,000 m. A pinger locator could be lowered on a cable, but that would slow the search. If the zone can be narrowed to a few km., the submarine Nautile carried aboard the Pourquoi Pas can detect a signal from 200 m. by ATWOnline Staff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canus Chinookus Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 isn't it a bit early to be grasping at straws here? Meteors? Space Junk? You forgot to add 'SAM, from a nearby navy warship'. There are many far more likely causes of this tragedy than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moeman Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Has AC replaced the pitot tubes on it's A330's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpy Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Intact Vertical Fin This picture looks eerily like the Long Island AA A300 crash. Wasn't there an ACARS message concerning rudder inputs? Is this excessive rudder inputs in mod/svr turbulance causing the tail to shear off which would explain the inflight breakup.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 one of the ACARS messages was Rudder Limiter Fault. If the Rudder Limiter Fails as I stated in a earlier post then pushing on the rudder pedals the way one normally would, would result in a MUCH larger deflection of the rudder (if it failed in the full deflection position, which i believe is fails in as a fail safe anyhow). This was an issue in a previous incident on an A300 aircraft however I believe the A300 system is different. Full deflection of the rudder at cruise speeds can have a catastrauphic result on the aircraft and may be hard for the crew to correct for since they do not usually experience these inputs as the change is usually automatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicoChico Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 I wouldn't jump to any conclusions regarding the fin. As the aircraft disintegrated its likely the fin would seperate in this manner and it, therefore, doesn't necessarily indicate it was the cause of the accident. Chico Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 agreed Chico. Just throwing it out there. We are a long way from knowing what happenned here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon The Loon Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 isn't it a bit early to be grasping at straws here? Meteors? Space Junk? You forgot to add 'SAM, from a nearby navy warship'. There are many far more likely causes of this tragedy than that. Hey, it's just rebuttal/discussion of the link on the previous page! This whole episode might end up being solved by considering all the possibilities and ruling them out one by one, with the most improbable being ruled out earlier, until only the impossible remains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 BBC article on the Fin recovery and picture. When you enlarge the picture you can see that it is the upper portion of the fin complete with rudder. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8089917.stm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Couple of good pics from Flight International... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 another... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted June 8, 2009 Share Posted June 8, 2009 Air France Memo Warned Pilots Of Speed Monitor (AFP)--Air France warned its pilots in November about "a significant number of incidents" linked to speed monitors on Airbus A330 jets like the one that crashed last week, according to a memo obtained by AFP. The memo, dated Nov. 6, 2008, said the incidents were linked to "anomalies" in the Pitot probes - a device that measures air speed - on A330 and A340 models. The two-page memo describes false speed readings; different speed readings on the pilot's control panel and that of the copilot; and the automatic pilot cutting out. Two Air France pilots, who preferred to remain anonymous, confirmed the document's authenticity to AFP. For one of them, the memo showed that "Air France knew from November 2008 the problems that seem to explain the catastrophe of AF 477." Air France-KLM (AF.FR) flight 447 from Rio de Janeiro to Paris crashed in the Atlantic June 1 with 228 passengers and crew on board. After last week's crash, planemaker Airbus warned pilots to review their methods for coping with conflicting speed data. French accident investigators have said the cockpit of the doomed jet was receiving conflicting speed data in the run-up to the crash. The plane broadcast a series of 24 automatic error messages as its systems shut down one-by-one in its final minutes. Air France said Saturday that Airbus had planned to replace the monitors in its A330 planes following numerous breakdowns. These incidents had led Air France to step up its program of replacing the monitors on its Airbus A330 and A340 aircraft from April 27, without prejudging whether the was a link with the AF 447 disaster, said the company. The leaked memo, titled "Info OSV" (Flight Security Officer), recommends pilots read existing technical instructions carefully so they can identify and confirm the situation and make any minor corrections necessary in case they have to take manual control of the plane. The Airbus A330 has three Pitot probes on the leading edge of a wing to measure the force of the air through which an aircraft passes. France's transport minister Dominique Bussereau said Sunday it was too early for investigators to say what was the most likely cause of the crash, but confirmed that Airbus jets had experienced problems with speed monitors. Airbus is a unit of European Aeronautic Defense & Space. Co. (EAD.FR). "There have been situations on Airbus planes, and perhaps on others, where these probes ice up in a very wet area, a deep depression, an area of storms, and no longer give the correct speed reading," Bussereau told RTL radio. "It's obvious that if the pilots in the cockpit no longer have the correct speed...that can lead to bad consequences for the survival of the plane," he said. -Dow Jones Newswires, 201-938-5500 http://news.morningstar.com/newsnet/ViewNe...000620_univ.xml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEFCON Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Has an encounter with hail been debated yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon The Loon Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Here's another statement that has remained unchallenged here: "If water is found in the lungs of victims, investigators would know the plane went down intact." http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/06/...very/index.html Perhaps in a controlled, low speed ditching, people may have drowned. But with wreckage as we've seen so far, spread over such a wide area, how can anyone still think the plane went down in one spot, intact and even less likely, at low speed? Such a statement, in my way of thinking would indicate the exact opposite of a plane going down intact. An inflight breakup with the possibility of a low speed impact by some of the pieces, much like the Challenger accident, would make more sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rattler Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Regarding the pitots. I wonder if other carriers have completed their replacements or ? Air France to replace sensors at once: union Tue Jun 9, 2009 6:49am EDT By Crispian Balmer PARIS (Reuters) - Air France has said all its flights using long-haul Airbus jets will be equipped immediately with new speed sensors after last week's disaster over the Atlantic, a pilots' union said on Tuesday. The pitot tubes that gauge speed have become the focus of an investigation into the crash after messages showed they provided "inconsistent" data to the pilots and might have played a role in the June 1 crash. One Air France union urged its pilots to stop flying Airbus A330 and A340 aircraft until the old sensors were replaced and the company has since committed itself to a swift change-out, a union official said. "Air France has provided us with an extremely proactive and very accelerated replacement program," said Erick Derivry, spokesman of the main SNPL pilots union. "From today, all Air France A330 and A340 flights will use planes equipped with at least two new sensors out of three (on board)," he told France Info radio. Air France, which has 19 A340s and 15 A330s, declined to comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 A few photos from a few sources: Found today - A330 spoiler panel: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Hudson Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Detail of the vertical stabilizer root: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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