AC Chooses Boeing

[moeman]

I'm sorry. I wasn't aware that the company had made an offer and you had had your wages trimmed. Well, that's how you make it sound at least.

There goes that darned cart getting ahead again....

And I'm not suggesting wage cuts. There are no wages on these birds yet. It's all hypothetical and you're all assuming that you will be low-balled, not that I blame you really. So let's wait and see, why don't we? And if ACE is rolling in the dough in 2006, perhaps we shall all be using our wage re-openers to recoup some of our losses.

Finally, if it's as written in stone as you suggest, you have nothing to worry about. Teplitsky will rule on it and all will be swell.

[Flightlevels]

AC makes a great announcement of new A/C and then the labour always finds a way to spoil the party. Stop being the laughing stock and enjoy the situation.

[AIP]

How can a non-existant pay rate be considered a concession before it's even been negotiated? And you're assuming the 777 will be at 767 rates.

That is not quite true their Moeman.

There is already an established pay rate for the 777 and 787 and even a 707 if they could find one.

It is written in the contract and factors in weight and speed, and is their even though it has not been made publci, it is called the Formula. Been in their for years.

[IFG]

Math is something I know.  Let's do some of the 'new' AC math together, shall we?

Hi, Vsplat - as has been noted, your prowess in discussion on regulatory and performance issues is unquestioned, causing some trepidation for me in examining your maths, but … would it be possible for you to indicate what your assumptions are on AC pilot pay and progression (since your “reason for using the TC rates was because they were verifiable”), just to assure no GIGO considerations wrt your conclusions

Cheers, IFG

[CD]

Air Canada has the more stringent hiring standard, as you can join Transport Canada HQ (CAI-03) with a Class I Instructor rating and an ATPL based on a Seminole.

Starting salary at AC - mid 40's.  Starting salary at Transport Canada (including flying pay) $75K plus overtime.  Most CAIs are not offered the lowest rung but mid-line, so $80K is a better average.

Here is the link to the current rates of pay for CAI's... As Vsplat indicated, the contract expired and they are in negotiations as well. I'm not sure where the flight pay is found but the pay range for a CAI-3 is listed as starting at $69,734 and topping out at $82,542.

Aircraft Operations Group Annual Rates of Pay - Civil Aviation Inspectors (CAI)

Job Opportunities - Civil Aviation Inspector

[Cargo Agent]

That is not quite true their Moeman.

There is already an established pay rate for the 777 and 787 and even a 707 if they could find one.

It is written in the contract and factors in weight and speed, and is their even though it has not been made publci, it is called the Formula. Been in their for years.

If there is already an established pay rate written into your contract, then what is all the squawking about? You now will be sitting down with management to deal wih the situation. If the formula is in your contract, then supposedly ACPA agreed to it. You will be paid based on the formula that ACPA agreed to. If there is a discrepency between ACPA and the company about this formula, take it to Teplitsky.

Hopefully there are some cooler heads within ACPA that see these new acft orders as being good for it's members.

[wrench]

You are probably right. Recent history suggests they'll charge us at least $59.50 for each hour of solo.

Well you guys are batting 1000 (at least some of you). Don't you think that it would be common sense to "Make it work" right from the beginning rather than the neanderthal position certain barganing groups take on! What ever happened to the thought of the company buys the equipment, and you drive it? Don't argue about it until it's a dead issue! Just do your job (that by the way, you kissed megga arse to get in the first place). Have a nice day!

[Vsplat]

CD - as I noted, I added the flying pay, which pretty much happens. That adds $4800 per year if I'm not mistaken....the reference is in the collective agreement - Aircrew Allowance or something like that.

My AC model is 2 years flat pay, + 5 years Pay Group or equivalent position (B767 RP or EMB FO) + 3 years 320/FO to EMB Captain, then on up the left seat in 3 year increments.

As I mentioned, it's a rough estimate, could be better, for many it could be much worse too.

I hope this helps.

Cheers

Vs

[pictues]

The MTOW of the A340 is 606,000lbs. The B767 to A340 is about 200,000lbs so the differance between the A340 and B777 is about 150,000lbs so the differance shouldn't be too much then the A340, but lets leave that upto Air Canada and ACPA, which has a dispute mechenism right?

[Dropzone]

AC makes a great announcement of new A/C and then the labour always finds a way to spoil the party. Stop being the laughing stock and enjoy the situation.

The voices of only a few are making all the noise.

[Jumpy]

My AC model is 2 years flat pay, + 5 years Pay Group or equivalent position (B767 RP or EMB FO) + 3 years 320/FO to EMB Captain, then on up the left seat in 3 year increments

So for someone starting at AC, they would be looking at 7-10 years before they would start to make more than about 70K? I would be surprised if they get anyone with experience coming with that pay scale as they could make alot more overseas or at the risk of starting an argument, even at WestJet.

[Kip Powick]

I would be surprised if they get anyone with experience coming with that pay scale as they could make alot more overseas or at the risk of starting an argument, even at WestJet.

Then I guess you are surprised . There are enough resumes at AC to keep the pool full for the next 20 years. It is just not $$. The job one decides to embrace must include what one wants as far as.... life style, location... retirement ..benefits..etc etc.

It's all about choices and believe it or not...it is not always about the $$ for many people.

[Homerun]

Moeman, I think you have misinterpreted my comments. I do not feel that we should try to regain what we gave up in CCAA on the 777's, only that we be paid what the contract calls for. We have a contract that spells out a weight and speed formula. Using this formula the 777 will pay more than the 340 it is replacing.

I can tell you right now though, that AC will be making a lowball offer. Flt ops management cannot be trusted to do anything in good faith. You may not be aware of how dismal the relationship is between management and the pilot group right now. It's certainly much worse than in 98 when we went on strike. Since the day we emerged from CCAA, management has attacked almost every aspect of our contract, re-interpreting agreed upon clauses, ignoring grievances already won, not paying pilots for sick days, not paying pilots on longterm disability, directing crew sked to lie and misrepresent scheduling issues to pilots up to and including CARS violations. Really, things can't get much worse. Next time you are at work, ask around, I think you'll find that the pilot group is done giving.

[buzz]

Right on the mark, Homerun. At some point, working the contract is going to involve "setting the park brake" on a larger scale. That is, unless Brewer can deliver on his stated goal of improving relations.

Moeman, every time I see the 30% higher per diems on layover that F/As get, not to mention time and a half plus 3 extra days of vacation F/As receive every leg the bunks in the belly have a problem, I start wishing for a "me too" clause. Worked pretty well for you guys in the past. If I got a perk every time the galley cart smashed into the bunk wall a few inches from my ear, I might feel a little better about things...

buzz

[YYC I/C]

The pilot group has to learn, or better yet, come to grips with the fact that they get paid a lot more than they should for the work they do. The market will not and can not afford to pay what some of these guys get paid for their 15 days a month.

It doesn't matter what the speed is. It doesn't matter what the weight is. However, what matters is that the airline can be profitable.

The bus driver does not get what you do. Neither does the train conductor.

I know, I know - you must pay for your training, work in the bush, etc, etc, etc.

Change careers if you don't like it. If you do, you'll realize that, except for professional athletes, you are the employee group that make the most money for the least amount of work in Canada.

[CD]

...except for professional athletes, you are the employee group that make the most money for the least amount of work in Canada.

Funny, I thought that was any of our "honourable" representatives in the House of Commons...

[YYC I/C]

Funny, I thought that was any of our "honourable"  representatives in the House of Commons... 

However, unlike our members of parliament (at least the Liberal ones), I don't think our pilots are crooks, just highly over-paid for the value they provide.

[dozerboy]

YYC I/C you gotta be friggen kidding?

If there is a group that is overpaid it is the incharges. Incharge of what? It is an absolute farce. My daughter could do a better job than most of you.

Tit for tat.

[YYC I/C]

Dozerboy, it's not the F/A's that are complaining.

Have your daughter apply. In fact, I'm taking a package effective June 1, you can choose to apply as well since there will be at least 1 vacancy.

I'm no longer satisfied with my work environment; therefore, I'm leaving. I suggest some of you do the same if you feel as I do.

The fact is that I can leave AC and get piad more than what I do now. You can not.

[mo32a]

You guys are incredible!!

You take the best news story (for AC) in the last couple of years and turn it into a slagging match with each other.

You should all be ecstatic that you are getting beautiful new aircraft to fly or fly in, new routes opening up, good financial outlook, and instead of "whistling a happy tune" you snipe at each other and your own company and threaten that unless you get paid more those shiny new machines will be grounded. If you all just did your jobs without complaining, make the passengers feel like they were the most important cog in the wheel(they are), the "happy times" would soon follow. That would allow ALL of you to enjoy increased remuneration and working conditions.

[Cargo Agent]

You guys are incredible!!

You take the best news story (for AC) in the last couple of years and turn it into a slagging match with each other.

You should all be ecstatic that you are getting beautiful new aircraft to fly or fly in, new routes opening up, good financial outlook, and instead of "whistling a happy tune" you snipe at each other and your own company and threaten that unless you get paid more those shiny new machines will be grounded. If you all just did your jobs without complaining, make the passengers feel like they were the most important cog in the wheel(they are), the "happy times" would soon follow. That would allow ALL of you to enjoy increased remuneration and working conditions.

Please remember that it's only a fraction of the employee's that visit this site, and a fraction of that group that is pissing and moaning. The majority of us are thrilled with the news. There are always going to be people that will find a reason to complain, no matter how good the news.

[Guest rattler]

Funny, I thought that was any of our "honourable" representatives in the House of Commons...

Nah..... it is the Senate....... closely followed by the Governor General

[buzz]

I'm leaving. I suggest some of you do the same if you feel as I do.

Nope, I'd rather stick around and change things for the better (provided my peers and I can get our collective $hit together).

The poopfest in this thread developed with an F/A posting about greedy pilots. Apparently you hold the same viewpoint; a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black. I think you'll find the private sector offers few jobs that involve shopping in Hong Kong and stuffing yourself with J meals.

Have a great retirement.

[boestar]

I look at it this way...

The company goes out and spends $150,000,000.00 on a big toy and then they let me play with it.

All I can say is, and I think this is where Mitch is comming from, AC has the best payed engineers in Canada (airlines). The money is good, the conditions are good, and we get to PLAY with the best aircraft in the world.

When you guys started to fly, did you not do it because you loved it? I did. I make no money flying (spend lots). I love it.

The pay argument, for me, is like the baseball player or hockey player etc. They started of doing it for the love of the game and now they can't get payed enought to do it.

You will argue working conditions and time away from family etc. and yes I agree thesee are worth being compensated for. The fact of the matter is you knew what you were signing on for and shooting your self in the foot for more money when the company is offering the best aircraft in the world (also the lowest workload) is just plane silly.

20 years ago you would have jumped at the chance to fly a 747 for 40 g's because you were still in a seminole.

Do it for the love of it.

B

[cp fa]

directing crew sked to lie and misrepresent scheduling issues to pilots up to and including CARS violations.

Homerun, I don't know about the other issues you have mentioned, but I do know that if you are experiencing this kind of behaviour from crew sked, or know of others who are, you should report it to Flight Ops management.