Holy Cow!

[DEFCON]

How cute, but this picture isn't a positive indicator when one considers the notion of flight safety.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/26/business/woman-26-easyjet-youngest-pilot-captain/index.html

 

 

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, DEFCON said:

How cute, but this picture isn't a positive indicator when one considers the notion of flight safety.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/26/business/woman-26-easyjet-youngest-pilot-captain/index.html

 

 

Because of their age?  Do we / you have any idea re the actual qualifications, experience and training?

[Fido]

Once upon a time I had a picture on the wall of my office of a gravestone.

It was a gravestone for a 21 year old Squadron Leader who was killed in WW2.

[J.O.]

Thousands of pilots that age (and younger) came home from that war and all the ones thereafter. And if this were a guy:

1. It wouldn't make the news
2. Even if it did, you guys wouldn't bat an eye

[Moon The Loon]

Didn't EPA promote a pilot to Captain at the age of 23? I know the name but won't publish it here. Regardless, why is this news? There were 19 year old Lancaster pilots who transitioned to commercial aviation at the end of the war. And with a fraction of the training modern pilots receive.

In other words, what J.O. said...

[Super 80]

There is a woman younger than that on the P-8. I swear some of the crews on those things look like they're in eighth grade.

[Kip Powick]

Perhaps what is forgotten is that those that transitioned from WW into the airlines were "stick and rudder" jocks, airplanes were simple machines back then, speed was not a big factor, crowded skies was not an issue, and technology was really not at the forefront of the pilots skill requirements.

I certainly wouldn't take anything away from the two individuals in the photo but .....personally.....I would be more comfortable if my Captain and FO had more experience.

[boestar]

Get used to it.  While North America is not experiencing it as much as Europe there is an expected pilot shortfall coming.  As the older pilots retire the replacements have to come from somewhere and that is the younger pilots.  

Experience is not everything.  These 2 could well be excellent pilots.  Did you see any qualification or awards posted or hours amassed? I didnt so I have no idea.  All I know is that I have see young pilots that could dance a jig around an old timer in an Airbus cockpit.

 

[Moon The Loon]

2 hours ago, boestar said:

Get used to it.  While North America is not experiencing it as much as Europe there is an expected pilot shortfall coming.  As the older pilots retire the replacements have to come from somewhere and that is the younger pilots.  

Experience is not everything.  These 2 could well be excellent pilots.  Did you see any qualification or awards posted or hours amassed? I didnt so I have no idea.  All I know is that I have see young pilots that could dance a jig around an old timer in an Airbus cockpit.

 

Yabut - Kip's point is when the chips are down. Both judgment and skills come from experience. He makes the point about JUST stick and rudder skills. Modern airliners have so many layers on top of stick and rudder skills so the pilot doesn't need them, that when everything goes kaa-kaa, there is little to fall back on.

Judgment- whether to land unstabilized into a poor weather situation (Air France)

Skill- how to avoid and then recover from a deep stall at high altitude (Air France), low altitude (Colgan)

And the list is growing.  

Having said that, a 23 year old can have a whack of experience, depending on the individual. The co-pilot in the article, meh.... That would seem to be an example of the multi-crew licence program. Now THAT scares me.

[Seeker]

2 hours ago, boestar said:

All I know is that I have see young pilots that could dance a jig around an old timer in an Airbus cockpit.

 

Hah!  So what?  On a dark and stormy night when things are going bad in a big way I'll take experience over dancing ability any day.

Listen, I'm not trying to sound like Chuck Yaeger but I have piloted my way through a large number of abnormal situations and, often, when back safely on the ground the younger and more inexperienced pilot beside me will say something along these lines: "I liked the way you slowed things down and worked methodically through the issue," or I liked the way you told the controller what we would be doing rather than asking for it," etc.  I did not know how to do this when I was inexperienced just as the inexperienced guy beside me doesn't know it.  Now, after seeing it done, he (or she) will be better for it.  During my career, which is not note-worthy by any means, I have experienced several hydraulic failures, several in-flight shutdows, alternate gear extensions, flapless landings, flight control failures, FMS failures, COM failures, many windshear events, many controller initiated go-arounds and many, many missed approaches and I can assure you that I'm better at handling these things than I was when I started.  There is no substitute for experience.

[boestar]

Here we go again for the umpteenth time on this discussion.

Unfortunately this is the face of aviation in 2016 and beyond.  Attrition rates are starting to get very high as the Boomer crowd retires.  The only people to fill those seats are the young ones.  It is a fact of life.  

My suggestion would be to mentor the young folks and train them to the best pssible standard so they have a good start.

EVERYONE on this board had zero experience at one time.  EVERYONE.  You are still here, the people that have flown with you are still here.  Where is the difference?

These days, in some places in the world, an entry level job is a 737 or A-320.  Get used to it.

[Seeker]

10 minutes ago, boestar said:

My suggestion would be to mentor the young folks and train them to the best pssible standard so they have a good start.

EVERYONE on this board had zero experience at one time.  EVERYONE.  You are still here, the people that have flown with you are still here.  Where is the difference?

These days, in some places in the world, an entry level job is a 737 or A-320.  Get used to it.

Well, I do mentor the young folks - that's what I said.  The point is - how much mentoring do you think the 23 year old Capt will be able to provide?  I had the benefit of a bunch of grizzled old Capts who showed me the way.  I do understand that experience levels are dropping and this is the new reality.   I am simply replying, and agreeing, with Kip's statement that he's more comfortable with a crew that has more experience.  The general tone of the original post is; "isn't this wonderful that she can be a Capt at age 23?"  Ahhh, no, that isn't wonderful.  It may be the new reality but it isn't a good thing at all.

[DEFCON]

Uh ... the young lady is not very old for certain, but if she's mature and has spent the past 5 years, or so doing instrument multiengine commercial flying, she'd be okay in my view. On the other hand, if she too started as a cadet a couple, or three years ago, then I'm not so bullish on her promotion.

The female aside; my focus was instead on the FO who is but 19 and from the bars on his shoulders would appear to be a cadet and that alone is a glaring example of the industry's pushing the flight safety envelope too fast & far imho.

[av8tor]

5 hours ago, seeker said:

There is no substitute for experience.

I don't know who coined the phrase but it has always stuck with me: "Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement."

"Inexperience" is the burden of youth and it is common to judge them on that basis alone. If young pilots are trained and qualified then, in my view, they are safe to do the job. The Air Force routinely puts "young" pilots in command of very large aircraft and they do a sterling job. If one is comfortable only with "experience" then I would suggest for starters, best to stay off our highways! 

[Seeker]

1 minute ago, av8tor said:

The Air Force routinely puts "young" pilots in command of very large aircraft and they do a sterling job. If one is comfortable only with "experience" then I would suggest for starters, best to stay off our highways! 

You're comparing apples, oranges and bananas and besides that no one said they were only comfortable with experience.  Can you honestly say that that you would prefer to board an aircraft with the 23 year old Capt and her 19 year old FO or a more experienced crew?  Yeah, yeah, I know - this is the new reality and we all better get used to it, etc etc, blah blah.  That's not what I'm talking about.  I'm just saying that it's to the detriment of all of us that we've gotten to the point where this sort of thing is happening.

[Guest]

Here is an interesting look at ....  The Evolution of Professional Aviation Culture in Canada, 1939-1945. I found it interesting and perhaps others will also. 

https://dspace.library.uvic.ca/bitstream/handle/1828/3023/Chapman_Thesis_Final_1 Sept 2010.pdf?sequence=1

[mo32a]

12 hours ago, seeker said:

Well, I do mentor the young folks - that's what I said.  The point is - how much mentoring do you think the 23 year old Capt will be able to provide?  I had the benefit of a bunch of grizzled old Capts who showed me the way.  I do understand that experience levels are dropping and this is the new reality.   I am simply replying, and agreeing, with Kip's statement that he's more comfortable with a crew that has more experience.  The general tone of the original post is; "isn't this wonderful that she can be a Capt at age 23?"  Ahhh, no, that isn't wonderful.  It may be the new reality but it isn't a good thing at all.

I agree with you for the most part, unfortunately some of those "grizzled old Capts" don't know how to operate an Ipad, which is the skill set most in demand today.

 

[Moon The Loon]

1 hour ago, mo32a said:

I agree with you for the most part, unfortunately some of those "grizzled old Capts" don't know how to operate an Ipad, which is the skill set most in demand today.

 

Yabut while both pilots are heads down and don't know how to interpret the hook on the digital radar, who'd YOU rather be directing the flight?

[av8tor]

11 hours ago, seeker said:

You're comparing apples, oranges and bananas and besides that no one said they were only comfortable with experience.  Can you honestly say that that you would prefer to board an aircraft with the 23 year old Capt and her 19 year old FO or a more experienced crew?  Yeah, yeah, I know - this is the new reality and we all better get used to it, etc etc, blah blah.  That's not what I'm talking about.  I'm just saying that it's to the detriment of all of us that we've gotten to the point where this sort of thing is happening.

I'm not discounting experience, Seeker, I'm simply recognizing youth's ability in a way that perhaps others are unwilling.

I’ll always remember reporting to my Flight Commander for my first posting after “wings” (I was 21). I was assigned to be a T-33 QFI (Qualified Flying Instructor, for non-military types) at Gimli, Manitoba. The Flight Commander was an “old”, “experienced”, ex F-86, CF104 fighter pilot with 5 or 6 tours under his belt and as I stood at attention before him he was shaking his head in disbelief (or maybe it was concern) as he stared at my log book that he held in his hand – and which had all of 371 hours in it. It wasn’t difficult for me to read his mind: “How could this ‘SPROG’ ever be a flying instructor?"

I was not out of the ordinary; plenty of Air Force pilots before me and after me were assigned as a QFI for their first posting. I believe that all of us went on to do a creditable job despite our lack of flying hours. We were first trained to be pilots and then trained to be flying instructors and we did our jobs as we were trained to do - based on merit and ability, and not on how many hours we had in our logbook or how long we had been in the Air Force.

Pilot Training prepares us to deal with situations. Flying hours present us with the opportunity, when necessary, to deal with those situations for which we are trained. In 40 years of flying, I never once experienced a total hydraulic failure, or smoke in the cockpit, or loss of pressurization, or even an engine failure on take-off. Does that mean that I don’t have “experience”? Do those 40 years imply that I am better able than the 26 year-old to handle the emergencies named above? I would suggest not. In fact, using your logic, if the 26 year-old pilot in question has already dealt in real life with one or more of the situations mentioned above; whereas I haven’t, then would she be more “experienced”, and therefore better able to handle those situations, than me? I would suggest not.

To answer your question, honestly, I don’t have any preference for who is sitting up front; I trust that the people sitting up there are trained and qualified. If they’re not trained and qualified then they shouldn’t be sitting there at all - be they a 26 year-old “young” Captain or a 62 year-old “experienced” Captain.

But that’s just me, and I totally accept the concerns and arguments of others who more closely associate ability with experience. I completely understand that “time in the saddle” is a great teacher and that the more time you have in the saddle, the more that you learn. So let me end with how I began: I’m not discounting experience, I’m simply recognizing and extending confidence in well-trained and qualified youth.

Cheers,

PS. I know and feel where you’re coming from, I recently had an appointment with a surgeon who couldn’t have been more than 30, and looked like he had just graduated from high school. Tough to be non-judgmental … 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kip Powick]

I know where you are coming from and agree with you to a point.....

The problem with any profession and in this case you used pilots and a surgeon....so I'm going to throw this out there......

One of the problems with both professions is that there is no "outward" competence factor shown to anyone these two individuals may be working for.

I don't believe any of us have been in a doctor's office and have seen anything to bolster our confidence in his or her ability to do the job.....did the doc pass with 51% or 98%?? In a similar vein, did the pilot individuals breeze through the SIM with  absolutely no problems or was their session just a borderline pass?? 

The same holds true with the guy/gal in the pointy end of the high speed aluminum tube.............however we can assume that with the passage of time, both these professionals garner more experience and become more competent in their chosen profession.

Sure there are exceptions in both cases at both ends of the age spectrum, (aviation)...AF in the Atlantic and the Q400 in Buffalo, but for the most part we expect those in the front know how to do their job............ but it is my personal  preference to be associated with "time-in"  professionals that may have been exposed to some weird and awesome experiences, both in the air and in the SIM.

Let me be clear here.....experiencing an "emergency" and coming out unscathed, at any age, does not make one a "better" pilot.  In my opinion when one goes flying, any and every day, if one does not learn something....it can almost be classified as a wasted day .Again, my opinion, but experience gathered over time in various situations does lead to a more competent professional, be they medical individuals or aviators.  

[DEFCON]

Just thinking out loud, but if a surgeon is lacking in ability, skill sets, attitude, or anything else that matters, before he's killed any more than a couple of his charges, red flags start going up and he's pulled off the line. In the case of a pilots, the ones on AF 447 for example, it's just too late for hundreds of souls when it's discovered that the dynamics of the situation exceed the capabilities of the crew. This is exactly why pilot 'experience' is so absolutely critical to maintaining 'safe' flight. Smiley faced computer literate cadets that monitor robotics aren't what I want at the helm when the situation is going from bad to worse in flight. 

[J.O.]

 

1 hour ago, DEFCON said:

Just thinking out loud, but if a surgeon is lacking in ability, skill sets, attitude, or anything else that matters, before he's killed any more than a couple of his charges, red flags start going up and he's pulled off the line. 

Sorry to go further off topic but that has not been our experience. My father has been close to his demise on two occasions in the last seven years, both due to a doctor's failure to recognize what other doctors said were classic symptoms of what was wrong. The first was a highly infected gall bladder that eventually burst, the second was a subdue all hematoma (brain bleed). The first doc was a GP, the other a surgeon. Fortunately, other doctors came along in time to save his life. When pressed, those other doctors were reluctant to say what they really thought. I'm pretty certain there's a code against ratting each other out just as much in medicine as there can be in aviation. 

FWIW, these were very experienced people with many years in practice. Especially in the first case, we suspected that he hadn't opened a medical text or taken update training in decades. In both cases, a much younger doctor made the correct call.

If doctors had to take a PPC every year, a good many would be shown to be lacking, but maybe it'd also force them to bone up and arrive prepared for work, not just for the check, but every day. They get away with incompetence because unlike for pilots, such checks don't exist (also because they can only kill one at a time). 

[Seeker]

I agree with J.O. on this.  I have several family members in the medical field and I think it's quite likely that an incompetent Doctor would last longer practising his trade than a pilot would.

[DEFCON]

I sincerely hope I can clear up the confusion.

How many people die as result of medical incompetence of one kind, or another ... way more than pilots kill; so yes, I agree, there are one hell of a pile of medical professionals out there that don't deserve the respect, or rewards that come with the post. Should their proficiency be checked and rechecked on a regular basis... hell yes!

All that aside, physicians normally don't get the chance to kill hundreds of people in their care in an instant.

This is why I believe the selection, training and experience etc. of a pilot is far more consequential to the interests of a society than one hack medical practitioner could ever be.

  

[DEFCON]

JO

I think you are referencing a subdural hematoma?

Regardless, I think it's interesting to note that you have more, or less correctly associated the misdiagnosis of your father's conditions as a consequence of a lack of specialty expertise.

Why then would you think an 'Internist' is appropriately qualified to diagnosis and mange neurological disease in Hilary's case?