Transat pilot layoffs

[blues deville]

Suggesting that Chorus is in the same foreign pilot hiring game as CanJet and Sunwing is a load of crap.

CHR added both a new equipment type and new international operation and needed to outsource line training of it's own seniority list pilots for the startup season only. As CHR was using Thomas Cook aircraft, Cook had a vested interest in having some pilot reps on site for quality control. As a result, about 8 out of 20+ temporary contract pilots were non-Canadian. The rest were ex-AC, ex-SSV, ex-Zoom (in other words: ALL CANADIAN).

No foreign pilots are part of the 2011-2012 Thomas Cook Canada winter season. The CHR pilots are ALPA pilots and fully support the ALPA National position on foreign pilots. Sorry the facts do not support your allegation.

And as far as ACPA is concerned, you are correct. All that ACPA cares about is ACPA. Don't forget that it was ACPA that allowed AC to subcontract freight lift using Gemini Airlines - foreign pilots and foreign aircraft. And for a second time WJ has subcontracted lift to a foreign airline using foreign pilots.

Okay rudder thanks for the correction. I'll be seeing JH soon and congratulate him on a pure Canadian 757 roster for 2011-2012.

[boestar]

It was foreign pilot free last season as well except for the training pilots at the very start.

[blues deville]

It was foreign pilot free last season as well except for the training pilots at the very start.

Got it.

Yes I think the foreign pilots were there for at least the first 100 hours of the four month program until the Jazz pilots had 100 hours on type for their own training authority. I thought the contract Canadians were around for most of the winter program?

[DEFCON]

"the foreign pilots were there for at least the first 100 hours of the four month program until the Jazz pilots had 100 hours on type for their own training authority"

I know it's been going on for quite some time now, but isn't TC's granting "training authority" to a carrier after a few pilots have accumulated 100hrs on type a bit premature and perhaps serving the interest of profit rather than safety?

[boestar]

The Training pilots all have extensive experience on type. The issue was having enough fully qualified line pilots to check out the ones with less experience.

[rudder]

"the foreign pilots were there for at least the first 100 hours of the four month program until the Jazz pilots had 100 hours on type for their own training authority"

I know it's been going on for quite some time now, but isn't TC's granting "training authority" to a carrier after a few pilots have accumulated 100hrs on type a bit premature and perhaps serving the interest of profit rather than safety?

In the case of Jazz, nothing could be further from the truth. Jazz has exceeded regulatory requirements in all areas of training in order to ensure operational safety and success.

Jazz hired highly experienced Boeing pilots as permanent Fleet Type and Training Managers. Jazz contracted initial type training to the largest Boeing operator on the planet - Delta Air Lines. Jazz sourced almost two dozen contract line training pilots with extensive experience on both the aircraft and route structure for the Thomas Cook Canada Program including current Thomas Cook UK training Captains, former Skyservice and Zoom training Captains, and recently retired Air Canada 767 Captains.

No Jazz Line Training Captain was permitted to perform any line indoctrination prior to accumulating 100 hours on type. No Jazz Line Training Captain was permitted to perform a candidates 'first flight' prior to accumulating 200 hours on type. No Jazz pilot (other than the recently hired Boeing Fleet Type and Training Managers) exercised CCP A or CCP B authority until the start of the second season. All of the Jazz pilots in 757 training and checking positions already held those authorities on other aircraft and each had thousands of hours of command time on transport category jet aircraft.

Suggesting that placing profit before safety has been a factor in implementing the 757 program at Jazz is patently absurd and I expect that TC (Transport Canada and Thomas Cook) agrees.

[SkyBlazer]

I know years ago despite there being many qualified canadian pilots to train the jazz crews ... (aka air canada pilots) ... Jazz outsourced pilots through a contracting company that originated from all over the world.

SB

[blues deville]

The fact is Jazz did hire some foreign pilots with their TC 757 startup program. According to an informed individual on this website, they no longer have a requirement for outside help. So let's move on.

It's a difficult process to go from zero to sixty when adding a new aircraft type. I've been directly involved with these kinds of programs twice during my career and I wouldn't do it again......ever. However, I do know both the 757 fleet/training managers hired by Jazz and they couldn't have selected two better people for these positions. They also hired several support and maintenance staff with years of experience for the 757 operation.

Getting back to the original topic, there is a global demand in A330 crews for the recently furloughed TS pilots. Check out Parc and the others for the latest details and good luck.

[rudder]

I know years ago despite there being many qualified canadian pilots to train the jazz crews ... (aka air canada pilots) ... Jazz outsourced pilots through a contracting company that originated from all over the world.

SB

I assume that you are referring to the CRJ introduction at Jazz circa 2002.

In order to add the CRJ to the O/C, Jazz had to submit manuals to TC. Jazz was told that they had to pick an already approved CRJ platform, including SOP's. Jazz considered AC as it was one of the two available. AC was unable to train the Jazz CRJ pilots at the rate required to meet delivery schedules and the AC CRJ procedures were quite different from Jazz standard. In the end, Jazz selected the BBD platform for CRJ operations as it was closer to existing procedures (no surprise since Jazz was a large BBD Dash 8 operator) and accordingly went with BBD initial training, including line training. Unfortunately, BBD ended up short staffed for line training due to other contracts and there was a requirement to use some foreign pilots to get initial line training completed. That was never part of the original plan.

Not getting the Jazz CRJ start up training contract did not cause any AC CRJ pilot to lose his job.

Now back to the AirTransat pilot layoff topic.........

[SkyBlazer]

Rudder

I was refering to that, so thanks for the insight.

For the record I don't find the hiring of any foreign pilots acceptable within Canada.

We have an abundance of qualified pilots right here at home.

Anything more than just initial training is nothing more than outsourcing.

SB

[Fido]

Just curious as I am not a pilot but how do you feel about other countries hiring "foreign" Canadian pilots?

Wellll that is different don't you know.

[blues deville]

Just curious as I am not a pilot but how do you feel about other countries hiring "foreign" Canadian pilots?

Pretty good. When this country goes through it's cycle of airline failures, other national carriers around the globe have been a source of contract and/or full time employment. Also many airlines just don't have the infrastructure to produce home grown pilots.

And lucky for us, Canadian trained pilots have a well known reputation for good quality.

[ModerateChop]

It would be interesting to know the numbers, can anyone ballbark how many Canadian pilots are working at Emirates, Etihad, Qatar, Cathay, Korean, Singapore, etc. Is it more than the around 6500 that work at Air Canada, Jazz and WestJet ?

[blues deville]

It would be interesting to know the numbers, can anyone ballbark how many Canadian pilots are working at Emirates, Etihad, Qatar, Cathay, Korean, Singapore, etc. Is it more than the around 6500 that work at Air Canada, Jazz and WestJet ?

I would guess approximately 250-300 Canadians at those foreign airlines with EK being the largest single group. Next would be Cathay, Korean, Singapore, Qatar, Etihad. Chinese airlines are also in a hiring boom attracting pilots with their pay scales and tax treaty with Canada.

[chris]

I think Canadians who go to Emirates, Etihad, Cathay, etc, is a different matter altogether. None of those countries have the necessary general aviation infrastructure or enough local interest/qualified applicants for those positions, so they are forced to hire from outside. The motive is not making profit or finding cheap labour in these cases.

At Transat, we recently hired guys from EU/ME who were highly experienced and looking to return back to Canada. Unfortunately some of them are now facing a layoff. We're still hoping the company can find some sort of solutions (ie. reduced blocks, LOAs, etc). Im sure some pilots will be bailing or looking for work elsewhere, even if they're not one of the 17. This is the first time I've worked at a company that is issuing layoff notices, and I haven't been too impressed with the way it has been dealt with. Im sure it won't be the last time either though.

[DEFCON]

Rudder

I’m sorry I wasn’t clearer with my thoughts.

I was not throwing a dart at Jazz. I was throwing the dart at the ‘industry & its Regulator.

I don’t know about you, but I’ve always found I didn’t develop a real sense of comfort with a particular aircraft until I had accumulated approximately 1000hrs on that specific type. I think that’s a fairly common sentiment and why I made comment with respect to the Regulator’s 100hr path to an approved in house program.

[blues deville]

I think Canadians who go to Emirates, Etihad, Cathay, etc, is a different matter altogether. None of those countries have the necessary general aviation infrastructure or enough local interest/qualified applicants for those positions, so they are forced to hire from outside. The motive is not making profit or finding cheap labour in these cases.

At Transat, we recently hired guys from EU/ME who were highly experienced and looking to return back to Canada. Unfortunately some of them are now facing a layoff. We're still hoping the company can find some sort of solutions (ie. reduced blocks, LOAs, etc). Im sure some pilots will be bailing or looking for work elsewhere, even if they're not one of the 17. This is the first time I've worked at a company that is issuing layoff notices, and I haven't been too impressed with the way it has been dealt with. Im sure it won't be the last time either though.

It would seem that every Canadian charter carrier has a shelf life and expiry date. Many have come and gone and perhaps the competition now has TS on the ropes.

[DEFCON]

At least someone will be making money during the season.

[mo32a]

Over $500 in taxes and fees?

What the heck is all that. When you go on the site it doesn't break it down at all just gives you the total.

I'm guessing one of the fees is the actual cost of the flight.

[rudder]

Groupe Transat AT is doing their Q4/YE2011 analyst conference call on December 15. JME promised on the last call that he would update on his 'plan of action' to return the company to profitability. $49 fares to Europe will not do the trick. Should be an interesting call.

[Fido]

Over $500 in taxes and fees?

What the heck is all that. When you go on the site it doesn't break it down at all just gives you the total.

I'm guessing one of the fees is the actual cost of the flight.

The consumer wants to book the cheapest fare. They take some notice of the final figure, but the etched-in memory is "Hey, I got a fare for $49".

[mo32a]

^Exactly - no details at all. I would like them to show an exact breakdown of all the taxes and fees.

[thor]

Test

[Gumbi]

Good news!

As of this morning, all l/o pilots recalled for February first ( instead of May 1st )

[Kip Powick]

Good news!

As of this morning, all l/o pilots recalled for February first ( instead of May 1st )

Nice to hear Hopefully the spectre of future L/Os does not come about..... ever again...

Fly Safe.