Latest News in AOPG vs ACPG

[John S.]

I don't think that Don misperceived anything. He knew what was explained to him.

Another story: A few weeks after the Picher decision I was on a flight and sitting beside a buddy that I had flown floats with a few years earlier. At the time he was on the 47 at AC and was deadheading home.

The 47 captain he just flew with was all in a bother because some AirBC pilot (initials SC) would have more seniority than him and the 47 capt would lose bidding rights to his vacation!

I asked my former float buddy where this captain got such rubbish (even I knew at the time about ONLY the bottom 15% being dovetailed). "The Union" he replied.

I said that I would send him the CALPA version of propaganda so he could get a more balanced background. I do not think it changed anything.

So, like I have said before: I have to hand it to the ACPA founders/leaders - they were/are masters of the science of propaganda.

[skyline]

I also know of regional pilots who after getting accepted and given a number at AC would call their friends (now that they were ahead of on the seniority list) to come over and oddly clear their conscious. The sad part is, many of these people would not have had the qualifications to be at AC if not for the door opening of the 249 wing. Lets not forget that prior to all this, an applicant needed a degree or aviation collage diploma or military background. What a disgrace to our profession this has all been and we have only ourselves to blame.

[Johnny]

I'm in "memory lane" here and would have to dig up the list from my archives. However, I didn't think the award would affect me, I knew it, at least from the seniority list I got after the award, which showed me losing 23 numbers. In 1995 I had almost 22 years of service and when I joined AC neither Air Ontario nor any of the other regionals even existed and didn't for some time after and I couldnt' understand how some could have more years of service. That's what bothered me so much at the time, and I wonder now, if this whole thing was misperceived?

Although Air Ontario did not exist, Austin Airways (Canada's oldest Airline, 1934) and Great Lake (1958) did. The two merged in "87." I suspect that is where Pilots senior to you came from?

Date of Hire on a DC3 at Austin Airways.

The sad part is, many of these people would not have had the qualifications to be at AC if not for the door opening of the 249 wing. Lets not forget that prior to all this, an applicant needed a degree or aviation collage diploma or military background. What a disgrace to our profession this has all been and we have only ourselves to blame.

Categorically, untrue. Air Canada never REQUIRED post secondary. Air Canada was the airline of choice for the (younger) ex-Military crowd, as they were (...prior to roughly 1989-90) the only one that permitted pension buy-back.

Wardair, and to a lesser extent C3, were a high draw for the ex-Military guys. At the time getting promoted at Air Canada was a long, slow process.

[skyline]

I may stand corrected but if memory serves me right very few if any were hired (my late 70's era) without these qualification. I know for a fact that a friend of mine who did not have post secondary education was if fact rejected by CP and AC recommended post secondary enrolment. This was said over the phone (pre email era). You are probably right in the application requirement but in reality a necessity.

[Johnny]

We are the same era, Skyline. Not that it matters much, with the volume of "H20...under the bridge."

I predict the AO guys are going to win a substantial cash settlement.

I further predict that there will be a huge fight at ACPA, if they think they are going to force the entire membership to pay.

[John S.]

What a disgrace to our profession this has all been and we have only ourselves to blame.

So true. SO VERY TRUE.

[skyline]

I think you're right my friend. What a shame. I wonder if other professions eat their young like this?

[boestar]

Some do....Pilots are the worst.

The biggest reason being that the entire profession is based on seniority. More seniority = better plane = better pay.

So really I guess it is greed driven. Some people get it some dont.

[Kip Powick]

Status pay.......could be the answer

[skyline]

Does anyone know what or when the next step is going to take place? This has been in court for quite some time.

[UpperDeck]

Does anyone know what or when the next step is going to take place? This has been in court for quite some time.

The action was scheduled to begin trial in September just past but because the defendants had failed to produce financial information required to prepare a "loss analysis", the trial was adjourned.

Two judges have now referred to the fact that the plaintiffs (the AO group) offered to take a short cut---go to trial just on liability. If they lost then end of game. ACPA (the defendant pilot group) refused and insisted that the trial be on both issues---liability AND damages. That is making the whole process lengthier and more costly for both sides.

What's even worse is that ALPA and ACPA already went through a similar "loss analysis" as they each evaluated the impact of the Mitchnik and Keller awards so all of the information has been compiled and is stored away in boxes in someone's basement ---or law office.

Now, their jumping through the same hoops doubling the expense to get the same financial data. And for whose benefit?

Can anybody say; "Lawyers"?

[John S.]

Geez, who's giving these people such advise?

Can you say "Lawyers"?

Hmmm, do you think that there might be some self-motivation involved?

[GTFA]

What a fascinating discussion.

I find it makes me nostalgic for a time when there was so much potential for the pilots of all groups involved. Never has so much been lost by so many for the sake of so few. (My apologies to WC and those to whom he was referring.)

It is a telling shame to hear Captain Hudson reflect on his impression of affairs at the time. The missing link was the "Supplemental Award". It was, in effect, hidden from the AC pilots by the Kill Pichet gang. The award was distributed via company mail to all the AC pilots, most of whom never found it when they went to check their mail. Hmmm...The supplemental award addressed all of the issues that were the crux of the AC opposition. Then wasted.

Thanks John S. for your input. There are enough of us here who know who you are and respect not only your factual input but commentary as well.

GTFA (It's an acronym, not a registration)

[Mitch Cronin]

.... I have a question... if I may?.... How does one lose what he never had in the first place?

[GTFA]

Everyone has potential. But just as in quantum mechanics it must first be observed to exist.

[skyline]

Good one GTFA

[Mitch Cronin]

Everyone has potential. But just as in quantum mechanics it must first be observed to exist.

Does anything we percieve as lost really qualify as a loss if we've never actually had it to lose? Potential? Hell, that's almost unlimited! Have I lost that Maserati I should have had by now?

[GTFA]

You have not lost the Maserati but you may have lost the potential to obtain it. Potential is not elusive, it is there to be realized... or not.

What is elusive is the ability to realize potential. There was massive potential for the pilots of CALPA to gain the influence and esteem that we now sorely wish we had. We lacked the ability to obtain it due to shortsightedness. All parties suffered this at some juncture in the process. We are all culpable in the failure.

GTFA

[DEFCON]

Don

Someone can correct me if I’m in error, but I can’t imagine the “Rand formula” being applied to the present circumstance?

Personally, I could imagine an internal ACPA dispute arising on the issue of liability and forming the basis of the next legal feeding frenzy, but should that day of reckoning come, I doubt satisfaction of the judgment would be delayed or suspended while the ACPA members fought out the finer points of liability from within?

I think it’s more likely the Court would require those named and framed within a particular sub-group to satisfy the judgment in the present sense and take the matter of personal liability forward to the Courts?

[MCDU]

12, 13 years after having this discussion on Pam's AEF- the same distortions and half-truths, the same tired old lines...

There was no propaganda, the supplemental award was distributed, not suppressed. But just like every other lengthy document- not everyone bothered to read it all the way through. Some, like Don, were well-informed but mostly un-affected and can be forgiven for forgetting the specifics. It's been a while and we've had bigger fish to fry.

One point that the AC-critics seem to always miss is that large groups are difficult to focus and are allowed to change direction. Internal power struggles and conflicting agendas mean that governments fall and different goals are pursued.

The AC/regional merger was never a big thing for the majority of the AC pilot group. Some were vaguely aware that the possibility of a merger was being investigated. A group of YVR F/Os who were afraid of being bumped off the base watched BA146s taxiing by and actively pushed for a merger. Those hired in the '80s (243+) actively opposed. The vast majority didn't give a crap until the Picher list was published.

Eventually, the downturn at AC ended and the junior pilots gained the ear of those in power. The merger no longer helped anyone at the mainline, quite the opposite in fact, and the direction of the ship changed. Large groups of people are allowed to do that.

And then there's the greater good argument... Yeah, you have half a point. But at what price? It'd be for the greater good if you pooled your pilot wages with the auto worker next door. But how much would you personally be willing to give away from your own career, from your own pocketbook for the solidarity of the profession? Ever noticed how those who wave that flag are usually on the receiving end? Rather convenient, eh?

Under Picher the personal hit to me was over 500 numbers, about an 8 year setback- to be leapfrogged by an entire wave of pilots who had been junior to me when I was a Dash 8 captain. Of course I was opposed to that. Who wouldn't be?

As for the rest- at a YYZ general council meeting in the spring of '95, a grey-haired 747 captain stood up. Turning to us, he said "Gentlemen, I am John Wright, AC seniority number 1. This Picher list is a rape of your careers and we will not allow it to happen."

He sat down to thunderous applause and the rest, as they say, is history.

[DEFCON]

MCDU

Overall, your take on history is quite interesting.

I can't help but laugh as "John Wright, AC seniority number 1" clearly had absolutely zero grasp of the facts but was apparently ready to lead and being much like a ‘pied piper’, the pack were prepared to follow regardless of the facts?

[Innuendo]

I can't help but laugh as "John Wright, AC seniority number 1" clearly had absolutely zero grasp of the facts but was apparently ready to lead and being much like a ‘pied piper’, the pack were prepared to follow regardless of the facts?

If it is the John Wright that I think it is, did he not hold the position of CALPA President for a term?

[DEFCON]

MCDU

"Under Picher the personal hit to me was over 500 numbers, about an 8 year setback- to be leapfrogged by an entire wave of pilots who had been junior to me when I was a Dash 8 captain. Of course I was opposed to that. Who wouldn't be?"

I don't expect a counter, but being a Dash Captain means you almost certainly understood the merger was underway at the time you left.

I'm also sure you feel your own reasons justified the move.

How would you address the other side of reality, 400 regional guys above you were disadvantaged by your choice to leapfrog over them?

[UpperDeck]

12, 13 years after having this discussion on Pam's AEF- the same distortions and half-truths, the same tired old lines...

One point that the AC-critics seem to always miss is that large groups are difficult to focus and are allowed to change direction. Internal power struggles and conflicting agendas mean that governments fall and different goals are pursued.

The AC/regional merger was never a big thing for the majority of the AC pilot group. Some were vaguely aware that the possibility of a merger was being investigated. A group of YVR F/Os who were afraid of being bumped off the base watched BA146s taxiing by and actively pushed for a merger. Those hired in the '80s (243+) actively opposed. The vast majority didn't give a crap until the Picher list was published.

Eventually, the downturn at AC ended and the junior pilots gained the ear of those in power. The merger no longer helped anyone at the mainline, quite the opposite in fact, and the direction of the ship changed. Large groups of people are allowed to do that.

Under Picher the personal hit to me was over 500 numbers, about an 8 year setback- .........

MCDU----

I've had the opportunity of reviewing Minutes of the AC MEC and of the various LEC's through the 80's and 90's.

Interesting that you should refer to YVR because in fact, when the MEC circulated an intention to get out of the merger process, the YVR LEC expressed its concern that this was morally wrong.

You should read the Minutes of the YUL LEC !! Every other meeting, it was "merge! merge!" and those resolutions were sent to the MEC. Immediately after revision of the Scope clause, that same group were crying; "Get out of the merger. Get out of the merger."

You perhaps were unaware that the MEC went to the company "suggesting" the possibility of a Common Employer application. It also advised the company of the initiation of the merger process through CALPA. However, once the company agreed to a revised Scope, these "negotiating tools" were no longer necessary and the MEC started trying to halt the train even though when the CALPA Prez was asked to sign the Scope agreement, he was assured that because of the seniority merger, it would have NO impact upon the Regional pilots---their "brothers in arms" within the CALPA family. Yeah, right!

You are right that in 1991, those "involved" were more focused on the anticipated merger with CP than with the seniority integration with the Regionals but I assure you---not a MEC meeting went by without an update on the Regional issue.

By the way---I also have a copy of the "Picher" list. The "loss" of position on the list you describe seems awfully high especially given the relatively few AO pilots whose doh put them within the AC list rather than at its end where most Regional pilots were positioned. If you wanted to PM me with your name, I could confirm how many numbers you moved. Any chance?

No, MCDU---no historical revisions. The Regionals were led down a garden path and we all know what happened to Adam. A lot of years have passed but that doesn't mean the piper has forgotten. He demands payment.

[rudder]

The AC/regional merger was never a big thing for the majority of the AC pilot group. Some were vaguely aware that the possibility of a merger was being investigated. A group of YVR F/Os who were afraid of being bumped off the base watched BA146s taxiing by and actively pushed for a merger. Those hired in the '80s (243+) actively opposed. The vast majority didn't give a crap until the Picher list was published.

The merger was declared twice, by two different CALPA Presidents and in both cases at the explicit written request of the AC MEC through the MEC Chairman. Pleading ignorance to the actions of the body elected to represent the group is a very thin excuse.