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[MCDU]

"Zero grasp"? The bottom 15% were going to be dove-tailed with 800 or more regional pilots, some losing up to 600 numbers or about ten years seniority. I think he got it. The crux of the argument here is whether or not you think that was fair. The Air Canada pilots clearly did not think that it was.

To answer your question- when I left the regionals I had a discussion with the MEC chair of the time who told me "the merger is in abeyance. Nobody knows what that means. If I were you I'd go." I did.

I did not leapfrog 400 regional pilots. I passed through a selection process, one that was applied by Air Canada management to every pilot they hired regardless of his previous experience or place of employment. The same process was available to each and every one of the regional pilots.

I asked about the possibility of a merger at my interview. They stated at that time and have continued to state to this day twenty years later that they did not recognize a merger and refused to be bound by any internal CALPA policy.

The entire process was something kicked up by a handful of individuals within CALPA and never had the support of a majority. Recognizing the futility of the endeavor, the AC MEC made a couple attempts to shut it down before Picher even got to work but were stymied by the political process within the union. Ironically, the very CAIL pilots who forced this process are now ACPA members.

I regret the animosity between us. I regret the animosity between the red and blue factions of our company. But, there are two points that I firmly believe after almost 30 years in this industry. The first is that you as a regional pilot didn't lose anything- it was never yours to begin with. You're trying to take what belongs to me.

The second is that although we'll tighten belts, work-share, create Mutual Aid programs and the like- we are all primarily self-interested. Hypocritically, we'll always point fingers and offer the other guy's stuff and you see that here on this forum all the time.

Much like the Age 60+ guys- we'll wave whatever human rights flag or solidarity banner which might provide cover for our own advances, but nobody ever gives away his own nest for the greater good and the Air Ontario pilots are certainly no exception.

[rudder]

... but nobody ever gives away his own nest for the greater good and the Air Ontario pilots are certainly no exception.

Unless I am mistaken, at some point the during the 1990's (?) the Air Ontario pilots opened up all of their system vacancies for bidding by DOH seniority to all of the other connector pilots at the time.

Seems like a pretty good example of 'walking the walk'

[MCDU]

Unless I am mistaken, at some point the during the 1990's (?) the Air Ontario pilots opened up all of their system vacancies for bidding by DOH seniority to all of the other connector pilots at the time.

Seems like a pretty good example of 'walking the walk'

System vacancies? You mean after everyone else already had the spot they wanted? And by the pilots whose DOH meant that they could already hold anything system-wide, anyway? Not a very convincing argument, my friend.

[GTFA]

When Air Canada Regional was formed, for the sake of principle there were a significant number of pilots who were layed of at the time of the merger then recalled out of seniority for the sake of recognizing the merged list. They didn't like it then and they don't like it now but they liked their jobs then and they like their jobs now. The pilots of Jazz walked the talk. The process was not simple nor was it easy but the outcome far outweighs any short term pain.

[DEFCON]

GTFA

One more point regarding the walk. The blue side was merged in on a DOH basis, no fight, just teambuilding.

[RussD]

System vacancies? You mean after everyone else already had the spot they wanted? And by the pilots whose DOH meant that they could already hold anything system-wide, anyway? Not a very convincing argument, my friend.

What he means is that ANY Vacancy that GX had could be bid on by ANY pilot within the AC family of regionals (ZX,GX,3J,Qk) and be awarded in accordance with the pilot's date of hire at there own respective carrier. You may not be impressed, (I suspect anything that didn't further your own immediate interest you would find unimpressive), but to my knowledge it is the first and only time such a principled action has been taken by ANY group absent an actual merge.

During it's subsequent round of bargaining, the ZX group agreed to reciprocate, but the actual merge of the regional overtook the issue.

[MCDU]

(I suspect anything that didn't further your own immediate interest you would find unimpressive)

You know, Russ, your comment reminds me of why I only check in on this forum every year or so. Every time we go around this argument it usually starts with somebody on the regional side making nasty comments about Air Canada pilots. Me, or some other naive AC guy, thinks "no, that's not the way it was. I was there, and that's not the way it happened" and gives an honest try of explaining the other side of the coin. The discussion degenerates into insults and both sides retreat back into their bitterness and lawsuits.

Your example- still not so good. Any senior pilot group has nothing to fear when it opens itself up on a DOH basis. Westjet would get creamed if we offered to merge with them on a DOH basis. Would I suddenly say that was fair because it was for the greater good, a unified pilot group and the furthering of the profession?

No. If a pilot brings baloney to the picnic he shouldn't expect to eat steak. As a senior A320 captain, I would expect to be merged in with my equal- a senior B737 captain- even though I've been at my airline twice as long as the Westjetter has been at his.

-outa here. Got a marathon to train for-

[conehead]

Thought this "discussion" WAS a marathon...

[UpperDeck]

MCDU.....If you're still "out there" or if you return, let me apologize. You kind of deviated down the "merit road" and others including myself followed. By that, I simply mean that you were touching upon whether the claim of the Air Ontario pilots was justified.

That really wasn't the purport of this thread. As was stated initially, this lawsuit might be dismissed in its entirety and everyone will continue on with their lives. The possibility exists, however, that the lawsuit will be successfull.

And the question is---how will that impact upon you and by "you", I mean every AC pilot who falls within one or more of the defendant classes?

As was pointed out, there is one law firm representing ALL defendants even though all defendants do not have the same "interest". That "conflict" was pointed out by the Court in a recent decision. Was that information circulated among all AC pilots "at risk"?

It now appears that ACPA is paying for all of the legal costs even though not all ACPA members are involved in the lawsuit. In a recent decision that was referenced, the tactics of defence counsel were harshly criticized as a substantial costs award was issued in favour of the plaintiffs. Should this information concern you or should you just rely on the good will of your union officials?

Finally, as was also referenced, ACPA has apparently refused to even meet to discuss possible resolution of the lawsuit. An invitation by ALPA to that effect was rejected out of hand. Was that rejection motivated by the best interests of the defendants or was it "politically" motivated?

Much as one might dislike the suggestion, lawyers do occasionally perform a valuable service. In this instance, if I was a member of the defendant class, I think it would be in my immediate best interests to seek the advice of my very own lawyer.

The downside is a very frightening proposition---if you're paying attention.

[Johnny]

The entire process was something kicked up by a handful of individuals within CALPA and never had the support of a majority. Recognizing the futility of the endeavor, the AC MEC made a couple attempts to shut it down before Picher even got to work but were stymied by the political process within the union. Ironically, the very CAIL pilots who forced this process are now ACPA members.

The miss-information machine continues.

When the Air Canada MEC started voicing its intend to merge with the ACR Family, the Canadi>n MEC tried its level best to talk some sense into them.

The Canadi>n MEC had a wealth of Merger experience, verses the AC MEC who had...zero. The AC MEC were told, in no uncertain terms; "you are making a colossal mistake and should seriously re-think this. There is not an Arbitrator alive that is going to end-tail the ACR Pilots."

The AC MEC knew better and in their arrogance pushed the merger.

Some of the members of the ACR Family (namely Air BC) wanted nothing to do with a merger with Air Canada.

Trying to pin this mess on the CAIL Pilots, proves how deep and twisted your hatred lies.

Now, further to the history lesson.

Once this did not go the way the AC Pilots wanted (...they really should have listened,) and they wanted to weasel their way out of it.

The collective body of Airlines that formed CALPA, did not have a mechanism to un-declare a Merger, that was mutually agreed to, on the wishes of a single party.

...it was the Air Canada MEC's idea!

However, the President of CALPA at the time happened to be a Canadi>n Airlines Pilot. Who did nothing but uphold the CALPA Constitution, that had long history and was written by many outstanding Air Canada Pilots. Who was completely constrained and could not let the AC Pilots out of the merger, even if he wanted to, without the agreement of all parties.

Which at that point the ACR Pilots, were not about to do.

[rudder]

Correct if me if I am wrong, but wasn't the purpose of the merger declaration to prevent transfer of flying to an alter-ego company and therefore protect the careers of AC pilots? The AC MEC requested a merger declaration in 1986 and again in 1991. The merger clearly was never consumated. Were the original objectives therefore met or not met?

[Guest floatrrr]

It all just makes me laugh. Every pilots perspective is related directly to where they sit in the pile.

In a perfect world , at the beginning of time, DOH would have been implemented, but that's not what is.

Now in some way , we will all eventually suffer for being the aviation sluts we all are. Way to go!

ME ME ME , It's all about ME!

[Canus Chinookus]

It all just makes me laugh. Every pilots perspective is related directly to where they sit in the pile.

In a perfect world , at the beginning of time, DOH would have been implemented, but that's not what is.

Now in some way , we will all eventually suffer for being the aviation sluts we all are. Way to go!

ME ME ME , It's all about ME!

and you can transpose this truth to the age 60/65 argument. I'm glad someone finally said it.