Porter looking for a buyer? Again? Still?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, seeker said:

Several years? Seeker has been in this business for 38 years!  I don't live in Ontario so it doesn't really concern me too much, won't really affect me.  As a pilot I love airports - the more the best - but as a taxpayer I hate to see waste and duplication.

Rookie  

[Seeker]

13 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

Rookie  

Yeah, unfortunately I just missed out on boarding passes being hand-written with a quill.   

p.s. ( I did exaggerate a bit - licensed for 38 years, in the business for a little less)

[blues deville]

As I mentioned earlier Seeker, why let facts ruin a good argument?

For someone who doesn't live in Ontario or says it won't affect them, you certainly have an endless series of negative points of view. How did you feel about Montreal's Olympic Stadium? Do you know 10 New Orleans 'Super Domes' could have been built for the same cost. The retractable roof cost the city $200,000/yr for storage alone until it was installed. And it never worked properly. I think some of your 38 years of taxes helped pay for that monster. And as a former resident of Montreal, don't even get me started about tax payers dollars being poorly spent in your province on things that may have improved your quality of life. 

Two guys and a back hoe? Really? Another little history lesson for you. 

YHD was served for several years by Transair with 737's (AC never went near it with a DC9) When Transair merged into PWA, some of their routes went to Nordair. Their CP decided the runway was unsafe for normal 737-200 operations and needed (I think it was another 900' or so) lengthened. I know it was built properly to meet all required standards. Maybe 4 guys? Who knows? 

Sorry, not going to respond to your other comments. 

Anyone with time on their hands in the Toronto area should take a drive down to the harbour front. Instead of looking at the western (YTZ area) harbour, checkout the sh$t hole east side. It's the former blue collar neighbourhood with a smoke stack, rusting Great Lakes boats, and occasional dead body pulled out of the water by Toronto's men/women in blue. It's real pretty but well outside of Adam Vaughn's yuppie highrise village riding of Spadina and never gets much attention by anyone. 

[ng78]

7 hours ago, MD2 said:

And I ask again, is funding for the project the only remaining obstacle?

No sir, my point is that funding never comes up in the arguments., only environmental assessment and noise, which are also very important.  Since funding never comes up in the arguments I see, I am skeptical as to the amount of money that the tax payer is expected to foot, and who will benefit as a result of this, and whether that money is better put to use on other infrastructure projects.  It's a very important question. 

 

8 hours ago, blues deville said:

Certainly you too can see how everyone will benefit from a project such as this. The spin off in job creation is endless. Take a look at how many worldwide projects where cramped cities have recovered land from various water systems. It's a common practice in smaller countries like the Netherlands and many places in Asia. Dutch companies are experts at it and often contracted to do theses mega projects. 

 

It's taken years for the city of Toronto to finally expand its subway system and roadway network due to shortsighted politicians and government bickering. Toronto is currently only second to LA in daily commuting times at a fraction of their population.

I simply don't think the job creation is as endless as you think by allowing jets into the island.  What is the incremental benefit if Porter operates the CS100 into CYTZ?  I think allowing US Customs and increasing the number of slots into the island with more Q400 service would give us the increase in passenger numbers without nearly the investment required.  On top of that, the benefits would be spread out beyond just Porter.  Competition is a good thing!

 

I agree that our city is suffering due to severe short-sighted politicians and lack of investment.  But the city is highly developed now (even if seemingly just condos) and any project allowed down by the waterfront is at the expense of other projects which may have a higher ROI or even may contribute to better quality of life for more people.  If the Island Airport is expanded, it could be at the expense of projects slated for the Ontario Place or Port Lands areas for example.  The infrastructure around the airport is also barely capable of dealing with the airport traffic as it is, so that has to be considered.  

 

I really think a balanced approach needs to be considered, and all the talk is simply about airplane noise.  My point is that it is far more complicated than that.    

[blues deville]

Tell us more about the projects slated for Ontario Place. I'm all ears! 

[ng78]

There are always projects being floated around, including revitalizing Ontario Place.  I think it's worth considering the potential for development in any of these places, and what the impact of having an expanded Island Airport might be on other projects.  

So what's the cost of the runway extension, what's the ROI, who pays, who benefits, what's the plan for the infrastructure around the airport, and what other projects are unable to go forward as a result of the runway expansion?  So far all we know is about how quiet the CS100 is.  

[MD2]

When the massive terminal one was built at Pearson who paid for it, who was the beneficiary? This expansion will be the same but on a much smaller scale. Similar to noise and environmental requirements, funding requirements can also be included into the agreement. Endless philosophical debates end in nothing, plus all these points are already envisioned and included in the studies. Talking about things is great, but at some point we must start "doing" things. The rest of the world is moving ahead....

[dagger]

1 hour ago, MD2 said:

When the massive terminal one was built at Pearson who paid for it, who was the beneficiary? This expansion will be the same but on a much smaller scale. Similar to noise and environmental requirements, funding requirements can also be included into the agreement. Endless philosophical debates end in nothing, plus all these points are already envisioned and included in the studies. Talking about things is great, but at some point we must start "doing" things. The rest of the world is moving ahead....

Pearson is one of the continent's largest airports, a cash cow if ever there was one for the federal government. The cost of the terminal helped put it into severe debt that the traveller is shouldering through a high AIF. However, Highway 409 was built expressly to link the airport with Highways 401 and 427, so the public contribution was large. Then there is the UP Express. Even then, there a move a foot to begin planning to extend the Eglinton Crosstown and Finch West LRTs to a transit hub that would be built adjacent to the airport, to help serve the passenger and employee traffic. 

Then again, there's a reason why it makes sense to spend billions of tax dollars on Pearson (over the decades).

It, and the cargo community around it, and manufacturers which want to be close to it for their logistics, constitute THE SECOND LARGEST EMPLOYMENT CATCHMENT AREA IN CANADA.

Employment in Pearson and environs is something like 300,000 people, but don't take my word for it. 

 

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/02/29/airport-area-employers-look-for-a-better-way.html

 

That's why governments spend money on Pearson - it is indispensable to Canada's economic well-being. YTZ is not. I'll grant you that Bombardier, the oil sands, the fisheries on both costs, the ag economy of the Prairies, forestry in BC, Alta, Quebec, ON, NB and NS. But YTZ is not critical to the country's economic well-being.

 

[Seeker]

5 hours ago, blues deville said:

As I mentioned earlier Seeker, why let facts ruin a good argument?

Well then, what are the facts?  You, and MD2, talk about  "what the runway extension will for Toronto and the economy."  That's a little vague, don't you agree?  And "endless job creation?"  A little exaggerated, no?

For someone who doesn't live in Ontario or says it won't affect them, you certainly have an endless series of negative points of view. How did you feel about Montreal's Olympic Stadium? Do you know 10 New Orleans 'Super Domes' could have been built for the same cost. The retractable roof cost the city $200,000/yr for storage alone until it was installed. And it never worked properly. I think some of your 38 years of taxes helped pay for that monster. And as a former resident of Montreal, don't even get me started about tax payers dollars being poorly spent in your province on things that may have improved your quality of life. 

My "endless series of negative points of view" balances you "endless job creation" - there, we've even!  I could give you my opinion any 10 or 20 capital works projects but we're talking about YTZ here.  (The Big O was a massive failure of government planning and oversight, if you really care about my opinion on that.)

Two guys and a back hoe? Really? Another little history lesson for you. 

YHD was served for several years by Transair with 737's (AC never went near it with a DC9) When Transair merged into PWA, some of their routes went to Nordair. Their CP decided the runway was unsafe for normal 737-200 operations and needed (I think it was another 900' or so) lengthened. I know it was built properly to meet all required standards. Maybe 4 guys? Who knows? 

My point there was that adding 900' in YHD is easy compared to doing the same in YTZ.  Have you been to YHD?  You do realize that the comment about 2 guys and a backhoe wasn't meant to be taken literally, right?

Sorry, not going to respond to your other comments. 

Why not?  Those are the comments that really deserve a response.

Anyone with time on their hands in the Toronto area should take a drive down to the harbour front. Instead of looking at the western (YTZ area) harbour, checkout the sh$t hole east side. It's the former blue collar neighbourhood with a smoke stack, rusting Great Lakes boats, and occasional dead body pulled out of the water by Toronto's men/women in blue. It's real pretty but well outside of Adam Vaughn's yuppie highrise village riding of Spadina and never gets much attention by anyone. 

Sure, the waterfront area to the east of downtown is a mess but what does this have to do with YTZ?

 

[Fido]

2 hours ago, MD2 said:

When the massive terminal one was built at Pearson who paid for it,

Before Tl 1 was even designed Air Canada wanted to get things moving and offered to build their own terminal.

But it was turned down because the airport authority insisted on building it themselves.

[rudder]

Trying to compare the significance of YTZ to YYZ is akin to comparing the significance of Porter to Air Canada. Not even close.

YYZ still has a final terminal phase pending which will resolve the gating and capacity issues associated with the transborder operations.

The only place where YTZ is being discussed is this web board and the Porter head office. It will not be on the political radar screen again for several years.

[dagger]

4 hours ago, seeker said:

10 hours ago, blues deville said:

Anyone with time on their hands in the Toronto area should take a drive down to the harbour front. Instead of looking at the western (YTZ area) harbour, checkout the sh$t hole east side. It's the former blue collar neighbourhood with a smoke stack, rusting Great Lakes boats, and occasional dead body pulled out of the water by Toronto's men/women in blue. It's real pretty but well outside of Adam Vaughn's yuppie highrise village riding of Spadina and never gets much attention by anyone. 

Sure, the waterfront area to the east of downtown is a mess but what does this have to do with YTZ? 

Actually, there are massive plans to redevelop that area. The city - in its infinite stupidity - is about to spend $1 billion to move the intersection of the Don Valley Parkway and Gardner Expressway a bit further north so the mouth of the Don River can be altered, and huge redevelopment can then proceed. 

See the image below. 

 

[blues deville]

11 hours ago, seeker said:

 

I'm sure your a good guy and all that seeker but don't worry, I get all your jokes.

However, if we're going to have a serious discussion about this issue and potentially others, silly jokes don't really enhance your end of the argument. So perhaps leave them out and just state the facts. And I would respond to some of your other comments (yes I have landed in YHD as a passenger and as a pilot, last time was an A320 charter as a matter of fact) but you seem to be so negative about the whole idea of the island airport, it's just too much effort to convince you otherwise. 

From my perspective (if you're at all interested) I will soon be moving from my suburban 905 area home to the beaches area of Toronto and would love to have jet service only a short street car ride away. Who wouldn't? I don't really care if it's Porter or AC/regional or Encore flying me to south Florida or SFO in the future. YTZ is not an anti-AC argument for me but we all know (and I know first hand having flown out of there for 4 years) that YTZ has been a thorn in the side of big red since the mid 80's and the City Express days. Deluce moved in and took over the place while AC was busy battling Westjet. Russ Payson told me he was offered the FBO for $1 and didn't take it. That little airport has been such a political hot potato and nearly 30 years after I worked there it finally got a (privately funded) tunnel. Only 30 years!!!

The city of Toronto has officially run out land to build on and has only one way to grow.....and that's up. As a result, high rises are being built at a tremendous rate, especially along the harbourside areas. Many of these are being purchased by a generation of retiring baby boomers (my clan, maybe yours too) who would probably like the option of a modern city airport with jet service. 

I'm also a huge fan of our Canadian airplane building heritage. I have flown four models of dehavilland aircraft in my career and I see the CSeries as another great Canadian airplane. Apparently your airline does too (along with a political deal to do the heavy maintenance in Trois Rivières or someplace) and I bet we will see them at YTZ sometime in the future. Politicians and their parties come and go and I'm sure the runway extension will be reviewed once more. And you don't really know who will pay for it. It could potentially be a privately funded project like the tunnel if approved 

And if you want to have a real serious discussion about wasting tax payers money building airports in Canada, I can give you our next topic.

Mirabel.

[blues deville]

14 hours ago, dagger said:

That's why governments spend money on Pearson - it is indispensable to Canada's economic well-being. YTZ is not. I'll grant you that Bombardier, the oil sands, the fisheries on both costs, the ag economy of the Prairies, forestry in BC, Alta, Quebec, ON, NB and NS. But YTZ is not critical to the country's economic well-being.

 

Let's be clear. The new T1 was built because the old T2 (originally built as a cargo facility and converted into a a pax terminal) was a sh&t hole and embarrassment for Canada's national airline. The gleaming newer T3 for the "other guys" was a modern design and didn't do much for AC's image.

T1 has become indispensable to AC's economic well-being. No one else. Why isn't Westjet operating out of T1 and let all the foreign carriers have T3? You don't see foreign airlines parked at the new or convenient terminals around the world. At Seoul/Incheon, AC and everyone (AA, UA, DL, EK, BA) else park at a secondary terminal requiring a completely inadequate subway ride to the main building. The best spots are only for the two national carriers, KE and OZ. 

YTZ definitely has its place in Toronto's economy (and therefore Canada's) with close access to business, hotels and the downtown core literally only minutes away. In today's world time is money and my friends who frequently use YTZ (Porter or AC/regional) tell me they love the convenience and time saved by not having to add hours per trip flying out of YYZ. 

[boestar]

Not long before the old T2 came down AC spent 55 million of its own dollars on Terminal upgrades and enhancements. 

[blues deville]

23 minutes ago, boestar said:

Not long before the old T2 came down AC spent 55 million of its own dollars on Terminal upgrades and enhancements. 

Good planning. Where are those decision makers now?

[MD2]

15 hours ago, dagger said:

Pearson is one of the continent's largest airports, a cash cow if ever there was one for the federal government. The cost of the terminal helped put it into severe debt that the traveller is shouldering through a high AIF. However, Highway 409 was built expressly to link the airport with Highways 401 and 427, so the public contribution was large........

That's why governments spend money on Pearson - it is indispensable to Canada's economic well-being. YTZ is not. I'll grant you that Bombardier, the oil sands, the fisheries on both costs, the ag economy of the Prairies, forestry in BC, Alta, Quebec, ON, NB and NS. But YTZ is not critical to the country's economic well-being.

Pearson is important, but City airport also has its own place and has created its own traffic and therefore is also needed for its own purpose. The same way the expansion project was funded at Pearson, City expansion will be funded too, just as it funded its tunnel in spite of the naysayers. Growth as City airport is not loss somewhere else which can be seen by the growth at both Pearson and City airport. It is clear that Air Canada's reduction of service at City airport to only 5 daily flights to Ottawa in 2005, was for its own benefit and not the travelling public. Since Porter, airport traffic which was a meager 25000 passengers annually has grown to over 2.5 million last year. This shows that the demand was always there if there was a commitment from an airline, and the growth has come in conjunction to the growth at Pearson.

Speaking of Pearson, I agree that the new Terminal 1 should be shared with WestJet if it wants it and foreign carriers should not have better access. Never mind that 55 million was never going to be enough for that size terminal, and tens of billions needed which was fine because it has great potential, but it has not been reached. This is partly due to Air Canada focusing too much on attacking domestic competition as opposed to focusing more on international routes. Now that finally WestJet is entering the international markets, perchance this will change.

This becomes clear when we compare Pearson with Dubai airport for instance. Emirates airlines has little to no domestic market, yet has grown so much over the years to make Dubai the 3rd busiest airport in the world with 78 million passengers. Only a decade ago, Dubai would not even rank among the top 40 airports, but its traffic, which is mostly transit, has grown double digit every year. This shows that even without a domestic market, an airline can be successful and flourish. And it's not only Emirates, there is also Etihad, Qatar Airways, Kuwait Airways, Fly Dubai, etc. In the Persian Gulf area which only had Gulf Air, now have emerged 4-5 other major airlines all growing and making their respective airports among the busiest. Air Canada would be wise top follow their example instead of trying to stifle competition and recirculate rumours and misinformation about the cost of Toronto City airport expansion, or finances of Porter.

[DEFCON]

I always thought the old T2 was pretty fine as airport terminals went.

 

 

I know it’ll never happen, but Toronto would be well served if CYYZ was rebuilt on a man made island somewhere along the shoreline of Lake Ontario and the old site turned into a central park.

[blues deville]

33 minutes ago, DEFCON said:

I always thought the old T2 was pretty fine as airport terminals went.

 

 

I know it’ll never happen, but Toronto would be well served if CYYZ was rebuilt on a man made island somewhere along the shoreline of Lake Ontario and the old site turned into a central park.

Perhaps well built in structure but it was designed as a cargo/freight facility. If you recall it was a long walk from end to the other although depending on where you park, the new T1 can have some lengthy walking distances too.

These new made-man island airports have an advantage of being a completely clean slate with no old structures, old runways, or old roadways to constrict the imagination of the designers.  

[boestar]

I believe the 55 million was spent several years (short time as far as airport development goes) before T1 was even off the drafting table.  in Fact the old T1 was still there.  The upgrades and enhancements were long overdue and very welcomed.

Many of the "foreign" airlines at T1 are either Code share or serviced by AC,  There are far more foreign carriers at T3 than at T1

 

[blues deville]

4 hours ago, boestar said:

Many of the "foreign" airlines at T1 are either Code share or serviced by AC,  There are far more foreign carriers at T3 than at T1

 

True but AC also does line maintenance for some of the foreign carriers who park at T3. When AC lands and parks at ICN they are nowhere near their code share Asiana partners. I'm sure to doesn't make for easy transit baggage transfer but it does work.

The problem now is T3 probably couldn't handle all the "heavies" currently using T1 which includes the EK A380's. The rest as you know are 330, 787 and 777's. The horseshoe gate area (B & C) at T3 wouldn't work for any of those aircraft today or if it did it would be a limited number. 

It will be interesting to look back at this whole Porter/YTZ issue in say five years to see what transpired for Deluce, his airline and of course the airport. I think we have many more pages to write in our Canadian aviation history books. 

[Lakelad]

6 hours ago, DEFCON said:

 but Toronto would be well served if CYYZ was rebuilt on a man made island somewhere along the shoreline of Lake Ontario and the old site turned into a central park.

Dunno, but I think a lot of stuff would be left stranded if it was rebuilt elsewhere:

'The region’s, and the nation’s, second largest employment zone with 300,000 jobs is clustered around Toronto Pearson. This relatively suburban zone straddling the borders of Brampton, Mississauga, and Toronto now outperforms all Canadian downtown cores except Toronto’s in terms of employment and economic significance.'

[blues deville]

35 minutes ago, Lakelad said:

Dunno, but I think a lot of stuff would be left stranded if it was rebuilt elsewhere:

'The region’s, and the nation’s, second largest employment zone with 300,000 jobs is clustered around Toronto Pearson. This relatively suburban zone straddling the borders of Brampton, Mississauga, and Toronto now outperforms all Canadian downtown cores except Toronto’s in terms of employment and economic significance.'

Intereting read. And from the cover story photos you can see that YYZ really is a beautiful display of modern engineering and construction. Equally interesting is the office address of the article's author. 

[DEFCON]

It would be a bit of a transition for sure Lakelad, but with some planning, workers and pax could board collector trains that would run through the city and feed directly into the new Pearson; imagine a series of 'V' shaped lines with the airport located at the south end.

Thanks for posting the article too, it  was quite interesting. 

     

[MD2]

1 hour ago, Lakelad said:

'The region’s, and the nation’s, second largest employment zone with 300,000 jobs is clustered around Toronto Pearson. This relatively suburban zone straddling the borders of Brampton, Mississauga, and Toronto now outperforms all Canadian downtown cores except Toronto’s in terms of employment and economic significance.'

Interestingly enough, the nation's largest employment zone which is downtown Toronto already has quick and easy access to City airport using public transit, or even walking and cycling, and with the proposed expansion will have even more choices from it. This is why consumers support the expansion of the airport. It just makes too much sense.