Porter To Get C Series

[Thebean]

Has anyone discussed where all of Porters money is going to come from for these jets?

Anyone ever thought of a middle eastern based airline looking to get more access

to Canadian markets that the Gov has prevented them for doing thus far? Could Porter be this vehicle?

FFT???

You might want to think of rolling what you are smoking a little smaller....

[boxcar]

You might want to think of rolling what you are smoking a little smaller....

You are so funny Bean.....Now bite me!

[dagger]

Simple and fair way to handle this: Auction any new slots to the highest bidder.

Taxpayer will be well-served.

[Super 80]

Or maybe, Air Canada could try playing by the rules next time and see what happens. They did after all lose in court for the umteenth time when they challenged the most recent slot allocation, done not by the TPA but British consultants.

The criteria for the slot allocation was clear, destinations new to the island. Air Canada proposed precisely zero new destinations but still received a generous number of slots.

[dagger]

Or maybe, Air Canada could try playing by the rules next time and see what happens. They did after all lose in court for the umteenth time when they challenged the most recent slot allocation, done not by the TPA but British consultants.

The criteria for the slot allocation was clear, destinations new to the island. Air Canada proposed precisely zero new destinations but still received a generous number of slots.

Or the TPA could play by the rules and not try to gerrymander the outcome by putting terms and conditions on slot usage designed to favor one airline.

[Super 80]

The TPA is playing by the rules. Their job is to opperate the airport, not put it out of business.

The Competition Bureau and atleast a dozen different judges have found no fault on the part of the TPA or Porter in any of this despite AC's continuious stream of nusisance lawsuits directed at them.

After seven years it might be time for Air Canada to look in the mirror and honestly ask itself "Maybe we're going about this in the wrong way... it just doesn't seem to be working."

At every point, starting all the way back in about 2005 where a decision was to made and an action taken, AC and Jazz have chosen the wrong one. Acting either out of sheer stupidity or sincerely on the belief that forces were going to transpire in their favour.

[MD2]

Simple and fair way to handle this: Auction any new slots to the highest bidder.

Taxpayer will be well-served.

Dagger, plus if Air Canada has so much cash to throw around in a war for the very slots that it basically threw away over the years, shouldn't it meet its pension obligations first?! Many, including its own employees to be sure, hope that it acts more responsibly with its spending, including its executive compensation, while it's taking a vacation from its financial obligations, and farming out its flying to cheaper parties.

[Guest rozar s'macco]

Looking at the airport from the air, what they SHOULD do is raze Ontario Place and make a 2000-foot RWY extension on the west end. Just sayin.

[Thebean]

Dagger, plus if Air Canada has so much cash to throw around in a war for the very slots that it basically threw away over the years, shouldn't it meet its pension obligations first?! Many, including its own employees to be sure, hope that it acts more responsibly with its spending, including its executive compensation, while it's taking a vacation from its financial obligations, and farming out its flying to cheaper parties.

Even if one takes MD's argument at face value, I'm pretty sure WJ could afford a YTZ few slots with the $1.4b war chest they have. There isn't an airline in North America that has the sort of cash per asm flown ratio WJ is sitting on.

Dag's suggestion is a fair and difficult to argue against, (unless of course you are Porter and cash is a little hard to come by).

If Porter had cash, it's a safe bet they would have gone after the LGA slots that WJ picked up for $18m a year ago. They could also have gone after the DCA slots in the same auction. If Porter was profitable, they'd have had investors coming out of the woodwork to ensure they won that slot auction. YTZ-LGA 8x a day? Even the Bean would have given thumbs up on that move.

There would then be the question of how to pay for the 85% of YTZ slots they currently have. I suspect they'd ultimately be grandfathered in, which would put Porter, the supposed upstart, entrepreneurial airline as yet another business that relied on a steady diet of government cheese, in the form of free slots, in order to survive.

And under no circumstances could Porter be allowed to "sell" slots they were awarded by governement to others, or that shareholders be allowed to capture the value of the taxpayer owned asset should the airline be sold, which is pretty much what the plan has been since day 1.

There are airports that are slot controlled, but the slots don't necessarily cost money to acquire. Then there's LGA and DCA.....

That'd leave WJ as the only airline in Canada that actually had to PAY hard cash for all the slots at airports they operate in that were slot controlled where slots have a monetary value. (LGA and YTZ), Another bullet in the PR campaign for WJ....

A ton of handwringing and debate is going to occur around the thought of expanding YTZ. If it is approved, a lot of tax dollars will be spent.

Before this process even begins, wouldn't it be prudent for taxpayers to be able to see Porter's audited financial statements for the past three years to ensure that the business is even viable in the first place?

What's the point of going down the path if it turns out the company has no cash, no profits, and like Wardair in 1989, is on the verge of implosion?

One would hate to see a scenario where the money is spent, the runway is expanded but the principle tenant is yet another airline tombstone, alongside Jetsgo, C3000, Greyhound, Intair, Royal,Astoria, etc etc, and YTZ is just another tax payer boondoggle white elephant.

It's no different than a homebuyer being preapproved for a mortgage before wasting a realtors time and writing offer upon offer on properties that are far too expensive for their pocketbook.

Such an exercise would be easy in the case of Air Canada and WestJet who are publicly traded. Anyone can take a peak at their financials and determine their viability. Not so Porter.

Porter needs to lift up the kimono and prove to the taxpayers they have a business that is viable prior to launching the GTA into a divisive and energy sapping debate as to whether or not the airport should be expanded in the first place.

Porter's had a seven year headstart. If it isn't profitable now with the sort of fares it is extracting to day with their 85% dominance of YTZ, it's pretty hard to see how that's going to change in the future. I'm hard pressed to think of an example of any airline that has ever succeeded by "expanding into profitability".

[Guest rozar s'macco]

Takeoff Field Length (isA, sL, MToW, Max. Thrust)

Base 4,000 ft. 1,219 m

Max 4,800 ft. 1,463 m

Landing Field Length1

(isA, sL, MLW)

Base 4,400 ft. 1,341 m

Max 4,450 ft. 1,356 m

Are those the factored distances?

[MD2]

Looking at the airport from the air, what they SHOULD do is raze Ontario Place and make a 2000-foot RWY extension on the west end. Just sayin.

That may be nice from a pilot's point of view! I think extension within the marine exclusion zone, as has been suggested, and allowing jets that meet the noise ban is quite sufficient and reasonable.

Bean, I believe money had nothing to do with it, rather those airports need per-clearance. Porter has never been short of cash. Let's not forget it started with almost five times the equity of your favourite airline! If additional slots become available, I'm sure the TPA will do its part to be fair and protect the longevity and viability of its airport, as it has in the past. Maybe this time Westjet will give it more than a minute of its time!

[Thebean]

That may be nice from a pilot's point of view! I think extension within the marine exclusion zone, as has been suggested, and allowing jets that meet the noise ban is quite sufficient and reasonable.

Bean, I believe money had nothing to do with it, rather those airports need per-clearance. Porter has never been short of cash. Let's not forget it started with almost five times the equity of your favourite airline! If additional slots become available, I'm sure the TPA will do its part to be fair and protect the longevity and viability of its airport, as it has in the past. Maybe this time Westjet will give it more than a minute of its time!

Point taken on LGA slots.

Why give YTZ a minute of thought when, as you know, without at an extension and a lift on the jet ban, it is a non starter with an all 737NG fleet.

I can't imagine Porter spent much time contemplating expansion to LHR or HKG with a fleet of Q400's. What would be the point of spending a nono-second of time thinking of it if their aircraft was not capable of operating the route?

That has only changed in the past 12 months with the Encore fleet announcement and then again with the idea Porter has floated to extend the runway which makes YTZ theoretically feasible, for both WJ fleet types.

Why is this so hard for you to comprehend?

The fact that Porter started with 5x the equity as WJ, and has yet to return a red cent to it's long suffering shareholders isn't anything to brag about. Last time I checked, WJ is trading at all time record highs. Had Teachers stayed in, their original investmentt at about $2.12 cents is worth about $84 afrter splits today....

I bet your shareholders are a little tired of looking at how poorly their investment has performed since launch. They'd have made 4-6% per annum by simply having a decent broker and playing the markets....

[MD2]

Point taken bean, but then again you guys were reluctant with Toronto altogether, until you finally came around!!

[MD2]

...It's far less risky for WJ, with close to $1.5b burning a hole in it's pocket and the stock at all time record highs, meaning easy and near immediate access to more capital at any time, to go down the Encore path than it is for Porter to go down the national carrier path whilst trying to mesh together a feed network given it's current focus at YTZ. If YTZ had another 2,000 feet and allowed "jet" service, I might think differently about it, but were that the case, WJ and others would have picked off YTZ long before Porter was even a twinkle in RD's eye...

Hmmm....

[boestar]

Are those the factored distances?

Those are the advertised specs from the Fact sheets.

[boestar]

Isnt Ontario Place closed now? I thought the Ontario Government shut it down last year.

[Maverick]

Bean: you said

Should we then expect WestJet's new low cost wing to take at look at YTZ when / if they come east? Talking about encore, can not find any Dash 8 aircraft registered to them or WestJet. What am I missing?

The 1st aircraft hasn't been delivered yet...

[Super 80]

There would then be the question of how to pay for the 85% of YTZ slots they currently have. I suspect they'd ultimately be grandfathered in, which would put Porter, the supposed upstart, entrepreneurial airline as yet another business that relied on a steady diet of government cheese, in the form of free slots, in order to survive.

You and Dagger continue to dance around the issue that the only reason Porter came to have all these slots in the first place is because nobody else could have conceivably taken them as Air Canada and Jazz had chosen to make themselves ineligible to operate from the airport and instead of negotiating with the TPA turned to the courts who turned them out on their ass.

It took a massive amount of incompetence and repeatedly doubling-down on obvious errors over several years to reach this point.

[Super 80]

The 1st aircraft hasn't been delivered yet...

What about the ex-Horizon cabin trainer?

[Maverick]

What about the ex-Horizon cabin trainer?

I know nothing other than than what I originally posted.

[Super 80]

Supposedly the remains of N425QX is bound for Encore as their cabin trainer. It was scrapped at YYZ a few months ago.

[Seeker]

Supposedly the remains of N425QX is bound for Encore as their cabin trainer. It was scrapped at YYZ a few months ago.

I hope they're going to scrape some of the paint off it first:

[47north]

Supposedly the remains of N425QX is bound for Encore as their cabin trainer. It was scrapped at YYZ a few months ago.

Why was it scrapped?

[st27]

I wondered that myself...the link doesn't exactly give a definitive answer...

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/5646592

[boestar]

There are 285 Service Difficulty reports filed since 2006. So say 6 years overall. thats about 47 a year for a single aircraft. compare that to a comparable Age aircraft where I work and we file roughly 1/23 that amount / year. infact we have filed somewhere in the order of 70 for the ENTIRE FLEET since Jan 1 this year.

So I would say that this aircraft was a maintenance hog. Some of those reports are not necessarily SDR worthy and are just maintenance related but still the amount reported to the FAA is far higher than average.