Porter To Get C Series

[blues deville]

Lol, Robert on Dulce on BNN Business Day asked about the financing for the expansion and he says they have none, Bean is right, looks like Porter investors are getting desperate with time running out before Encore takes them out. Getting the jets on the island and extending the runway is impossible, people will never allow that to happen.

Extending the runway is impossible? Can you tell us why?

[Fido]

Extending the runways at YTZ will presumably give a total of 5,000 feet.

Where can the C series go with that amount of runway?

What does an Emb-190 or -175 need to go YTO-MIA?

[Seeker]

Extending the runway is impossible? Can you tell us why?

Well, nothing is impossible - it's just very, very unlikely.

[Guest rozar s'macco]

If they let jets in, it would be huge for corporate aviation, for one.

It you're going to extend the runway do it right and make it at least 5000 feet. Either way this is a crazy Ivan on the part of porter, announcing a jet order for an airport that doesn't allow jets and even if it did the runway's too short. There's forward looking, there's risk-taking but this is on a whole new level.

[Thebean]

Indeed, you would think that Canadians associated with aviation would be delighted with creating new opportunities and showcasing ground-breaking new technology and the city of Toronto! And it appears that some are missing the point which is to update the agreement to recognize the new technology available now in an aircraft that is very quite. This is in fact a very technical issue and not so much political.

And Bean, you are forgetting that of course the airport has always kept its doors open to all airlines and encouraged new business. In fact one airline declined the slots which it was awarded. As per your previous assertion, Westjet was never interested in this airport and I believe you said Westjet didn't give it even a minute's thought or something to that effect. If new slots should become available, which you're right they should, and Westjet has a change of heart and sees the potential of this airport, then it too can apply and be awarded its fair share.

....provided, of course, that Porter is able to continue it's cosy defacto monopoly. Apparently all the economic benefits of the airport to the GTA only apply when such a monopoly is in place. It's fascinating to watch Porter proposing to pave over a portion of the public lakefront to suit it's own commercial needs to the exclusion of others.

I don't have any particular problem with extending the runways, provided its for the unrestricted benefit of all commercial operators and it goes through all various hoops to obtain approvals.

Regardless, those who understand the bigger picture, and that specifically excludes about 99.9% of all reporters, recognize this for what it is: a pure "Galileo Seven" move

[Guest rozar s'macco]

The business crowd is what should be driving porters plans. Vegas, Florida? In a jet barely 2/3rds the size of that which 5 of your competitors are using? From an airport actually more difficult to get to for the type of passenger those flights attract? I read the Star Trek Galileo Seven wiki and well, having not actually seen the episode I don't really understand the reference but if it is about pouring gasoline on a giant pile of money and lighting it on fire, then bravo!

[blues deville]

From the Sun News article

Since it has not flown yet, I guess it would be very quiet.

Toronto Sun.....LOL. I'm sure PW knows how much noise it's latest engine makes.

[blues deville]

Well, nothing is impossible - it's just very, very unlikely.

Really? How so?

[MD2]

If they let jets in, it would be huge for corporate aviation, for one.

It you're going to extend the runway do it right and make it at least 5000 feet. Either way this is a crazy Ivan on the part of porter, announcing a jet order for an airport that doesn't allow jets and even if it did the runway's too short. There's forward looking, there's risk-taking but this is on a whole new level.

How crazy, as crazy as proposing to fly a large complicated machinery into the sky about a 100 years ago, or as crazy as arbitrarily banning a certain type of aircraft regardless of it noise footprint? To your first point, I believe that's what the request is, to extend the RWY to about 5000'.

....provided, of course, that Porter is able to continue it's cosy defacto monopoly. Apparently all the benefits of the airport to the GTA only apply when such a monopoly is in place. :

Toronto City is Porter's home base, but Air Canada also flies from there, how is that a monopoly? Plus, continental gave-up its slots. Is that Porter's fault or is Porter's fault that Westjet "didn't give it a minute's thought" as you said before, or Air Canada in its years of true monopoly did not take advantage of its full potential? Can it be said that Westjet has monopoly in Calgary? Just as airlines there have to operate within the confines of the airport's rules and slot arrangement, the same applies at Toronto City, Porter's home base and HQ. You can't like the rules only when they serve you!

[Guest rozar s'macco]

Hey, maybe this is a great idea. But a competitive response WILL be mounted while porter waits for debate, vote, loss, appeal, new debate, vote, approval, planning (what year is it now...2015?), construction (that will be fun, a runway extension at your single-runway headquarters!), delays, construction, delivery, in service. 2018?

This is a long road and Deluce, not being stupid, must MUST have an ulterior motive.

[rudder]

Hey, maybe this is a great idea. But a competitive response WILL be mounted while porter waits for debate, vote, loss, appeal, new debate, vote, approval, planning (what year is it now...2015?), construction (that will be fun, a runway extension at your single-runway headquarters!), delays, construction, delivery, in service. 2018?

This is a long road and Deluce, not being stupid, must MUST have an ulterior motive.

If past practice is an indicator of future behaviour, Porter will just threaten to sue somebody

[Thebean]

How crazy, as crazy as proposing to fly a large complicated machinery into the sky about a 100 years ago, or as crazy as arbitrarily banning a certain type of aircraft regardless of it noise footprint? To your first point, I believe that's what the request is, to extend the RWY to about 5000'.

Toronto City is Porter's home base, but Air Canada also flies from there, how is that a monopoly? Plus, continental gave-up its slots. Is that Porter's fault or is Porter's fault that Westjet "didn't give it a minute's thought" as you said before, or Air Canada in its years of true monopoly did not take advantage of its full potential? Can it be said that Westjet has monopoly in Calgary? Just as airlines there have to operate within the confines of the airport's rules and slot arrangement, the same applies at Toronto City, Porter's home base and HQ. You can't like the rules only when they serve you!

Your argument is so disengenuous, it's ridiculous. Nonetheless, I guess you've repeated it enough times, you probably believe it by now.

Open competition means just that. There is nothing stopping anyone from flying to any airport of any significance in Canada other than YTZ. Porter could operate 50x a day out of YHM, YKF or YXX, all of which are now utterly dominated by WestJet.

That is clearly not the case at YTZ. Other than Air Canada's token service to YUL, what is it about having to compete openly, head to head out of YTZ with AC or perhaps WJ/Encore that has Porter so frightened? How can Porter be so economically beneficial to the GTA as a defacto monopoly to warrant paving over part of the harbor front, but such benefit disappears with a normalized competitive environment?

It's fascinating that Porter trotted out Carty for interviews.

Don has the rather dubious distinction of being considered as the new face of the infamous Plane Business Ron Allen Award for Airline Mismanagement, (see Issue #9 this year...) given his leading role in the downfall of American Airlines from the powerhouse it was under Crandell to the floundering bankrupt organization it became after a few years under his "vision". Adding the half billion dollars Virgin America has lost under his "guidance" and the tens of million dollar hole Porter is trying to dig itself out of under his "tutelage" doesn't exactly give one a profound sense of confidence in any scheme he currently touts.

Below is a brief explanation of the Galileo Seven reference, condensed from the Wikapedia entry. Note the description about the hysterical laughter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Galileo_Seven

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On stardate 2821.5, the Federation starship USS Enterprise is en route to Makus III, delivering much needed medical supplies to be distributed at the plague-ridden New Paris Colony.

An unusual planet is noted nearby and the Enterprise's shuttle, with Spock at the controls is launched to investigate.

Soon after launch, the shuttle is violently pulled off course and out of the Enterprise's sensor range. Spock makes an emergency landing on the planet Taurus II.

Scott's repair to the engine is successful and Spock barely manages to get the Galileo off the ground and back into orbit, but by this time the Enterprise has been ordered to abandon the search and is heading back on course to Makus III.

The shuttle is too low on power to escape the planet's gravity or even to achieve a stable orbit. With communicators scrambled by the ionization from the phenomenon, the Galileo has no way to call the Enterprise for help before it falls back into the atmosphere and burns up.

Spock gets an idea and decides to dump and ignite all the remaining fuel from the shuttle's engines, although this will shorten the time the shuttle can survive.

The giant flare he produces is easily spotted by the sensors of the Enterprise. Kirk turns the ship around once again, and transports the survivors out just moments before the shuttle is destroyed on re-entry.

Back on board the Enterprise, Kirk questions Spock, attempting to get him to admit that he expended the fuel as a result of an emotional outburst. When Spock stoically points out that such a desperate measure was the most logical action, Kirk and the rest of the bridge burst into hysterical laughter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMPib-WB4Ek

[MD2]

Hey, maybe this is a great idea. But a competitive response WILL be mounted while porter waits for debate, vote, loss, appeal, new debate, vote, approval, planning (what year is it now...2015?), construction (that will be fun, a runway extension at your single-runway headquarters!), delays, construction, delivery, in service. 2018?

This is a long road and Deluce, not being stupid, must MUST have an ulterior motive.

Exactly, that is probably why they opted for 2016 which seemed to displease the other poster rudder!

If past practice is an indicator of future behaviour, Porter will just threaten to sue somebody

To be correct however, Porter has always been the defender against frivolous lawsuits from Air Canada and Jazz and has won all cases. How soon you forget!

[blues deville]

Hey, maybe this is a great idea. But a competitive response WILL be mounted while porter waits for debate, vote, loss, appeal, new debate, vote, approval, planning (what year is it now...2015?), construction (that will be fun, a runway extension at your single-runway headquarters!), delays, construction, delivery, in service. 2018?

This is a long road and Deluce, not being stupid, must MUST have an ulterior motive.

Most road construction is done at night. Probably the same for the runway extension while the airport is closed. Don't see that aspect as a problem. There is a Dutch company currently working in Dubai and South Korea on land recovery projects. They are experts in this field and to them it would be a minor project. Breakwater extension and land fill....done. Even without the C series coming to Porter, a runway extension for safety considerstions is long over due at YTZ.

Did you know in the lates 70's when Nordair took over routes into Dryden, Ontario, the Chief Pilot demanded the runway be extended 500' to accommodate 737-200s? I'm sure anyone flying into Dryden today appreciates the 5000' of runway available.

[MD2]

...

Open competition means just that. There is nothing stopping anyone from flying to any airport of any significance in Canada other than YTZ. ...

What you seem to continue to miss or ignore is that Porter does not set the rules at the airport, ironically it is also part of the same outdated Tripartite Agreement that Porter is trying to update. And thanks for the entertainment. Speaking of emotions, with less of it we will see that it is to the benefit of all to update the outdated agreement.

[Thebean]

Toronto Sun.....LOL. I'm sure PW knows how much noise it's latest engine makes.

......just like the 787 is performing precisely to the specifications it had when it was on the drawing boards.....

It's one thing to make the claims, but it might be a little more prudent to see how it performs in real life before making any decisions.....

[rudder]

Exactly, that is probably why they opted for 2016 which seemed to displease the other poster rudder!

To be correct however, Porter has always been the defender against frivolous lawsuits from Air Canada and Jazz and has won all cases. How soon you forget!

Actually, it is likely you with the somewhat selective memory.......

In October 2002, the TPA announced a $35 million plan of improvements to the airport to support expanding its usage. The TPA planned to build a $15 million bridge and a $20 million airport terminal. A new regional airline would be launched at the airport, to be run by Porter's CEO Deluce.^[11] Since its opening, the airport, located on Toronto Island, has been accessible by passenger ferry only and the ferry-only access was seen as an obstacle to expansion. In a deal with the City of Toronto, the TPA's plans were approved by Toronto City Council in November 2002.

The TPA's plans were opposed by neighbouring residents and community associations who together formed the Community Air special interest group to fight the expansion. The expansion became a primary issue in the 2003 Toronto municipal election. Mayoral candidatesBarbara Hall and John Tory supported the bridge and David Miller opposed it. Miller and a slate of like-minded candidates for council ran on a common platform, the centrepiece of which was to stop the bridge. After Miller was elected Mayor in November 2003, the new council voted to cancel the previous Council's decision, stopping the bridge project.

After the bridge was cancelled, Robert Deluce launched a $505 million lawsuit against the City of Toronto and later expanded it to the Canadian federal government.^[12] After receiving an unspecified amount of compensation from the TPA to settle the suit, his company bought the airport building that Jazz was using at the airport and cancelled Jazz's lease on January 31, 2006. Two days later, on February 2, 2006, he announced that Porter Airlines, a regional airline operating locally built Bombardier turboprops would begin service in 2006, operating from the airport, initially on a Toronto-Ottawa route.^[13] In a show of political support, the Porter press conference was staged at the Bombardier plant in suburban Toronto, where the airplanes are built, with support from Canadian Auto Workers leader Buzz Hargrove, who said it would create new employment opportunities in the region

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porter_Airlines

Or if you prefer a more credible source:

Deluce responded by suing the city for breach of contract, and a protracted legal battle ensued to unwind the contracts and determine appropriate compensation.......The suit was eventually settled for an estimated $35 million, and Porter Airlines began operations out of TCCA alongside Air Canada Jazz in 2006.

http://www.langaracompetitions.com/documents/Porter%20Airlines%20Case.pdf

[MD2]

...Did you know in the lates 70's when Nordair took over routes into Dryden, Ontario, the Chief Pilot demanded the runway be extended 500' to accommodate 737-200s? I'm sure anyone flying into Dryden today appreciates the 5000' of runway available.

As did Westjet in Thunder Bay when the RWY was 6000' I believe....

[inchman]

And Bean, you are forgetting that of course the airport has always kept its doors open to all airlines and encouraged new business.

Now, that's a rewriting of history if I've ever read one. AC/Jazz even sued for over 3 years to get access. I don't see how the doors could be considered "open".

Then, there was that little issue of division of landing slots once it became impossible to keep out new carriers . When the NEW slots were split evenly among the three applicants, and one of them decided not to proceed, Porter got ALL of those slots. So, they had 100% of the existing slots plus 66% of the new slots. The new ratio became 83% Porter and 17% Jazz/AC.

If I didn't know better, I'd say .....

And, assuming that is still the case, there is absolutely no question in my mind that Porter will get their runway extension and jet access, and will probably get an increase in the total number of slots, without any other airline getting any new or additional slots for any type of aircraft.

[blues deville]

Unfortunately I don't have any 1960's tv show references to support my argument but I for one am getting tired of hearing about a YTZ monopoly. This airport for years consisted of an old 1940s building that was used as a terminal for passengers, an FBO and some small flight schools. Russ Payton was offered the FBO for $1 and turned it down. I know this because he told me so. Deluce and his investors came in and bought the place bringing the facilities up to modern travel standards. Sky Regional/Air Canada have benefited from the improved ferry boat/dock system, terminal and soon to be completed tunnel walkway.

After doing all this, who wouldn't protect their investment? Tell me how many other airlines have invested millions in the infrastructure at their home base airport in Canada?

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

[MD2]

No rudder, I was referring to lawsuits between Porter and Jazz or its mother corporation that they have always been the suitor.

As for the case against the government for breach of contract, of course that was justified and that is why Porter won. Unless of course you do not believe in our legal system or feel like North Korea, the government should do what it wants without accountability.

[chockalicious]

Interesting post on the Community Air Blog. They also poach posts from here, most notably, Bean's, as proof that Porter is unsustainable.

http://blog.communityair.org/page/1.aspx

Bill Freeman

PORTER’S PURCHASE OF THE CS100 JETS IS MIGHTY CURIOUS

April 10, 2013

As Alice in Wonderland said, “this is getting curiouser and curioiuser.” We are talking, of course, about the Porter Airlines announcement that they are going to buy a fleet of CS100 jets from Bombardier.

Porter’s home base is the Island Airport (called the “Billy Bishop City Centre Airport.”) At the present time only turbo props are allowed at the Island Airport and Porter flies the Bombardier Q400. Jets are banned at the Island Airport according to the Tripartite Agreement.

To allow jets, this agreement would have to be amended by all three parties to the agreement: the federal government, the Toronto Port Authority and the City. No one knows the position of the city, but it promises to be a very lively debate.

Porter is a private company so we have no knowledge of the current financial picture of the company, but when they attempted an IPO in the spring of 2010 the financials showed they had serious losses. The IPO was withdrawn and none has been attempted since. So where will the company get the money to buy the planes? We have to assume that it will come thanks to the federal government loan guarantee program.

Porter is flying at a little better than 60% seat occupancy on average and in the last four months their load factor has actually dropped from the year before. Both Air Canada and West Jet have loads of over 80%. Will buying new jets with even greater seating capacity be a smart move when they cannot fill the planes that they currently own?

But can the Toronto Island Airport handle these jets? That seems very doubtful. The longest runway on the Island is 4,000 feet. The CS100 appears to need 4,800 feet (at 130,000 pounds) to take-off and 4499 feet for landing even when the CS100 is carrying 112,000 pounds. Porter is touting a crippled version of the plane that requires 3,999 feet for take-off and 4,440 for landing. That means the runway on the Island Airport will have to be lengthened.

The Q400 currently used by Porter is assembled in Toronto, but none of the CS100 is made in this city. Shenyang Aircraft Corp. in China manufactures the fuselage. Other portions of the plane are made in Belfast, Ireland and final assembly is at Mirabel in Quebec.

The Island Airport presently is at the limit of the number of take-offs and landings that are permitted under the regulations. To expand this would be difficult because of the limitations of the airport. Again, any expansion would require an amendment to the Tripartite Agreement.

So what is this announcement all about? Is the Bean correct and these are soft orders designed to make both Porter and Bombardier look good? The Globe and Mail has speculated that “Porter could also be looking to deploy the CSeries from alternate airports, including Montreal, to destinations in the US and significantly expand its footprint on those routes.”

The point is we just don’t know. So the more speculation and the more news makes this all just “curiouser and curioiuser,” as Alice said.

In the meantime Porter’s current operation at the Island Airport is causing havoc for the residents of the Waterfront. The Island Airport expansion is incompatible with the live-work neighbourhoods that are emerging along the entire water’s edge and introducing jets will make things far, far worse.

Toronto’s Waterfront redevelopment project is the largest of its kind in North America. Billions of private and public sector dollars have been and will be spent to transform this part of the city. The downtown of Toronto has doubled in population in the last ten years. Toronto Islands, the harbour and Lake Ontario are the greatest recreational resources in the city. All of this is being threatened by the expansion of this airport.

CommunityAIR will use every effort to stop jets at the Island Airport and any further airport expansion.

For more comment contact Bill Freeman, 416 203-2956 billfreeman@rogers.com

Posted by Community Air at 4/10/2013 8:30 AM | Add Comment

[rudder]

What you seem to continue to miss or ignore is that Porter does not set the rules at the airport, ironically it is also part of the same outdated Tripartite Agreement that Porter is trying to update. And thanks for the entertainment. Speaking of emotions, with less of it we will see that it is to the benefit of all to update the outdated agreement.

Priceless! ......."outdated Tripartite Agreement"......I guess that when the rules don't work for you then the next logical step is to label them 'outdated' and hire (yet another) PR firm to fight a battle in the arena of public opinion? That is what this mornings dog and pony show was about, right? Shop Canadian, jobs for all, food for the starving, etc.

I wish you luck with Toronto City Council. I hope that your investors were very generous in their campaign contributions to the election campaigns of as many councillors as possible. But I do not believe that you will find the votes that you require. Know your single biggest impediment? The fact that the mayor supports it. Many councillors will vote 'No' just because the mayor is voting 'yes'.

My suggestion is that you drop the 'conditions', buy the planes (sooner than 2016), and put them in to service at existing airports that meet the operational requirements. I believe in the end that there is no room in the Canadian market for a third significant national carrier. But I also believe that you have the fundamental right to try. You will need very deep pockets.

[MD2]

Now, that's a rewriting of history if I've ever read one. AC/Jazz even sued for over 3 years to get access. I don't see how the doors could be considered "open".

Then, there was that little issue of division of landing slots once it became impossible to keep out new carriers . When the NEW slots were split evenly among the three applicants, and one of them decided not to proceed, Porter got ALL of those slots. So, they had 100% of the existing slots plus 66% of the new slots. The new ratio became 83% Porter and 17% Jazz/AC.

If I didn't know better, I'd say .....

And, assuming that is still the case, there is absolutely no question in my mind that Porter will get their runway extension and jet access, and will probably get an increase in the total number of slots, without any other airline getting any new or additional slots for any type of aircraft.

This is usually the problem that there are conflicting allegations and accusations based on one's perspective. Just after I have to remind someone that Porter has been on the receiving end of lawsuits from Jazz and Air Canada, someone else posts that Jazz sued for over 3 years!!

Anyhow, this was after the fact that Jazz had "grown" its business out of the Island from 400,000 pax of City Express days to 25,000, that Porter came and put the airport back on the map.....landing slots were also divided based on international rules, Air Canada appealed and lost. Again another Air Canada lawsuit, I've lost count....

[MD2]

Rudder "outdated" simply means out of step with available technology. In today's fast progress environment, all things must be weighed regularly and modified if warranted, that's all.