let'em sue-- let'em sue

[Kip Powick]

All nine Christmas trees have been removed from the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport instead of adding a giant Jewish menorah to the holiday display as a rabbi had requested.

Maintenance workers boxed up the trees during the graveyard shift early Saturday, when airport bosses believed few people would notice.

"We decided to take the trees down because we didn't want to be exclusive," said airport spokeswoman Terri-Ann Betancourt. "We're trying to be thoughtful and respectful, and will review policies after the first of the year."

Rabbi Elazar Bogomilsky, who made his request weeks ago, said he was appalled by the decision. He had hired a lawyer and threatened to sue if the Port of Seattle didn't add the menorah next to the trees, which had been festooned with red ribbons and bows.

"Everyone should have their spirit of the holiday. For many people the trees are the spirit of the holidays, and adding a menorah adds light to the season," said Bogomilsky, who works at Chabad Lubavitch, a Jewish education foundation headquartered in Seattle's University District.

After consulting with lawyers, port staff believed that adding the menorah would have required adding symbols for other religions and cultures in the Northwest. The holidays are the busiest season at the airport, Betancourt said, and staff didn't have time to play cultural anthropologists.

Hanukkah begins this Friday at sundown.

"They've darkened the hall instead of turning the lights up," said his lawyer, Harvey Grad. "There is a concern here that the Jewish community will be portrayed as the Grinch." --------oh really ???-------

[zipped]

It's all the talk on Rush Limbaugh this morning. He is having fun with it actually. Also lots of talk KGMI Bellingham this morning. It's my thoughts that this holiday we celebrate at this time of year is Christmas. A holiday in celebration of the birth of Jesus.

I am not sure how that can offend anyone, and if it does, deal with it.

[handyman]

It's my thoughts that this holiday  we celebrate at this time of year is Christmas.  A holiday in celebration of the birth of Jesus.

I am not sure how that can offend anyone, and if it does, deal with it.

This is a Christian holiday celebrating the birth of Jesus but the problem is SOME non-Christians argue and fight to take any meaning or symbol of Christmas out of the holiday but are not willing to give up the holiday themselves! If you don't like the name of the holiday then GO TO WORK!

[YYC I/C]

Since when is the Christmas tree a religious symbol?

Does that mean Santa Claus is a religious symbol as well?

I could understand if a nativity display, or a statue of Jesus Christ, or even just a simple cross was on display- but a Christmas tree???

I may be one of the most secular or anti-religion persons out there, but a this is ridiculous.

[handyman]

Since when is the Christmas tree a religious symbol?

It has evolved over the years as a Christian tradition and a sign of celebration of the birth of Jesus. The star placed on top is a reminder of the star followed by the three wise-men.

It is most definitely a modern Christian symbol!

Christmas Tree Origin

[newgirl]

Saw on the news tonite that the trees have been reinstalled as the Rabbi has decided not to sue.

It's such a pity that those who do not celebrate Christmas can't just enjoy the the lights and the beautiful music of this season and not be offended by the traditions.

[deicer]

I guess that's what happens when everyone is given 'rights' and then they feel they need to exercise them to fulfill themselves.

Iceman

[Specs]

You know. He's not complaining about the crucifxes on necklaces that some in the airport I'm sure are wearing.

He's just got kids or grandkids at home celebrating their own holiday. Those kids see all the christian symbols up there and wonder why none of theirs are up as well. Obviously those kids might feel a little less than equal or less important so what's the harm in including a few menorahs if asked?

We can celebrate for a holiday but others can't.

[handyman]

He's just got kids or grandkids at home celebrating their own holiday. Those kids see all the christian symbols up there and wonder why none of theirs are up as well. Obviously those kids might feel a little less than equal or less important so what's the harm in including a few menorahs if asked?

We can celebrate for a holiday but others can't.

So where does it end? What about other religions either taking offence or wanting symbols of their own on display? I say NO! You should not be able to force others to display what you want!

This, like it or not, is a Christian country as is the USA. The people are predominately Christian and if an Airport authority or a shop owner decides to display a Christian symbol during Christmas he should have the right to do so without having to also represent every other religion in order to be equal in representation. Let the Jewish display at their shops the Muslims at theirs but don't force any group or individual to display a religious symbol which is not their own just to have equal representation.

[handyman]

A few years ago I spent Christmas in Bahrain on a layover. The hotel was fully decorated for Christmas including a giant Christmas tree in the lobby. They even had a complete traditional Christmas dinner for anyone who chose to partake. This year, the Christmas tree is already up in the hotel in India and I suspect a Christmas meal will be available. Funny how these predominantly non-Christian countries don't take offence to celebrating Christmas but it's becoming more difficult to do so at home. Sad really.

My point is that they should be able to display as they see fit and shop owners should not be pressured by threat of legal action should they choose one over another!

[dagger]

So where does it end? What about other religions either taking offence or wanting symbols of their own on display? I say NO! You should not be able to force others to display what you want!

This, like it or not, is a Christian country as is the USA. The people are predominately Christian and if an Airport authority or a shop owner decides to display a Christian symbol during Christmas he should have the right to do so without having to also represent every other religion in order to be equal in representation. Let the Jewish display at their shops the Muslims at theirs but don't force any group or individual to display a religious symbol which is not their own just to have equal representation.

This is a Christian country? Bullcrap.

This is a country in which Christians are the majority, but where a lot of other religions are present and where atheism also flourishes.

It's a country where people pay lip service to religious symbols at this time of year because it represents

a ) a winding down of work

b ) a dutiful and often stressful obligation to buy large amounts of gifts

The Canadian constitution does not designate a STATE religion, and thank G-D for that, because most countries with state religions - the Vatican excepted I suppose - are pissholes where you can expect the secret police to be monitoring you ever word. In these countries, religious minorities are barely tolerated, their symbols repressed and often violently oppressed.

In contrast, the beauty of Canada is in our tolerance, and (in the case of most, but clearly not Handyman), open-mindedness to difference cultures, traditions and expressions, which doesn't mean you have to adopt them, but you should - where numbers warrant - find them colorful and even enriching.

This might be hard to understand if you grew up and/or live in a society where there are few minority residents, but in today's large multi-cultural, multi-ethnic cities, visible minorities are not tiny slivers of the population. They are significant minority groups, and if you aggregate all the non-Christian (or perhaps I should say non-Protestant/Catholics, since Orthodox Christians don't even celebrate Christmas at the same time and with all the same symbols) the Christians might well be in a minority.

Handyman, you even have all the stereotypes down pat, of Jewish and Muslim shopkeepers - well what about the bank presidents and lawyers and technology gurus and studio executives.

Gad, I don't know what you would make of Hindus, I shudder to think.

[dagger]

Saw on the news tonite that the trees have been reinstalled as the Rabbi has decided not to sue.

  It's such a pity that those who do not celebrate Christmas can't just enjoy the the lights and the beautiful music of this season and not be offended by the traditions.

You know, when I went to primary school decades ago, we had a very mixed class of different races and cultures and religions, but the teacher was old school and had everyone singing Christmas carols for the better part of two weeks. That was terribly awkward for a lot of people and Specs is right. It ostracizes some kids within a class and makes them second class. Even back then I found that outrageous. (If it was the reverse and they made your kids perform some Muslim ritual even once (as ooposed to learning about comparative religions, parents would riot.)

By the way, if we're such a society of symbols, can we take that old lady's picture off our money?

[handyman]

This is a Christian country? Bullcrap.

This is a country in which Christians are the majority, but where a lot of other religions are present and where atheism also flourishes.

It's a country where people pay lip service to religious symbols at this time of year because it represents

a ) a winding down of work

b ) a dutiful and often stressful obligation to buy large amounts of gifts

The Canadian constitution does not designate a STATE religion, and thank G-D for that, because most countries with state religions - the Vatican excepted I suppose - are pissholes where you can expect the secret police to be monitoring you ever word. In these countries, religious minorities are barely tolerated, their symbols repressed and often violently oppressed.

In contrast, the beauty of Canada is in our tolerance, and (in the case of most, but clearly not Handyman), open-mindedness to difference cultures, traditions and expressions, which doesn't mean you have to adopt them, but you should - where numbers warrant - find them colorful and even enriching.

This might be hard to understand if you grew up and/or live in a society where there are few minority residents, but in today's large multi-cultural, multi-ethnic cities, visible minorities are not tiny slivers of the population. They are significant minority groups, and if you aggregate all the non-Christian (or perhaps I should say non-Protestant/Catholics, since Orthodox Christians don't even celebrate Christmas at the same time and with all the same symbols) the Christians might well be in a minority.

Handyman, you even have all the stereotypes down pat, of Jewish and Muslim shopkeepers - well what about the bank presidents and lawyers and technology gurus and studio executives.

Gad, I don't know what you would make of Hindus, I shudder to think.

hahahaha...Merry Christmas Dagger!

God bless you too!

[chockalicious]

[Moon The Loon]

Amen!

[Steam Driven]

I choose to be inclusive as opposed to exclusive with regard to the Holidays.

Christmas is a celebration that I observe and I welcome other's to join me be they Christian or not. Allow me to celebrate my event, and perhaps when it comes time for yours you can include me. Perhaps we both may learn and appreciate each other's festival...

By being inclusive we are truly an open and welcoming society. By being exclusive and denying other's (our?) celebrations we are sowing the seeds of discontent... There is no such thing as "reverse" discrimination. There is only discrimination - period. If it's bad for one, it's bad for all.

Merry Christmas to all!

[Guest]

Hear, Hear

Christmas is a celebration that I observe and I welcome other's to join me be they Christian or not.

Allow me to celebrate my event, and perhaps when it comes time for yours you can include me. Perhaps we both may learn and appreciate each other's festival...

[Specs]

At the very least - If there's a big meal involved, I want in.

[AME]

"People who want to share their religious views with you almost never want you to share yours with them."

"Going to church doesn't make you a Christian anymore than standing in a garage makes you a car."

[Moon The Loon]

If there's a big meal involved, I want in.

Amen, again, I say!

[MCDU]

Is it just me, or does Jesus kinda look like Will Ferrell?

[Mitch Cronin]

I choose to be inclusive as opposed to exclusive with regard to the Holidays.

Christmas is a celebration that I observe and I welcome other's to join me be they Christian or not. Allow me to celebrate my event, and perhaps when it comes time for yours you can include me. Perhaps we both may learn and appreciate each other's festival...

By being inclusive we are truly an open and welcoming society. By being exclusive and denying other's (our?) celebrations we are sowing the seeds of discontent... There is no such thing as "reverse" discrimination. There is only discrimination - period. If it's bad for one, it's bad for all.

Merry Christmas to all!

Beautifully put sir... Right flippin' on!

...as for Dagger:

Re: "It's a country where people pay lip service to religious symbols at this time of year because it represents

a ) a winding down of work

b ) a dutiful and often stressful obligation to buy large amounts of gifts

"

That may be how it is for you, but I think you're wrong to presume that's what it is for a majority of us. You don't have to be a religious man to appreciate the spirit of the Christmas season... and that's got nothing to do with winding down work (very odd thought in the aviation business!), nor any obligations to buy gifts... it's about the only time of year where great numbers of people can actually feel ok about showing their soft side... Families re-unite - often the only time of year that happens... -

....Suddenly something is telling me I don't need to be telling you this... I'll bet you've seen it yourself, but maybe you choose to disregard it all? Whatever...??

Anyway, like it or not Dagger, this is indeed a predominantly Christian country and it has very Christian roots. You can "bullcrap" that all you like but it won't change the truth. I suppose in the heart of a few of our largest cities that may be hard to see, but this country is far bigger than Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. (and if that fact has evaded your notice, it's high time you got to know this country! Get off your butt and trip around a bit - by car! You won't learn anything by flying over it all!)

Merry Christmas to all, ....and for now, especially to all the cynical old farts.

[Pager]

Merry Christmas to all, ....and for now, especially to all the cynical old farts. 

This cynical old fart will be attached to a freq. on the 25th for the last Christmas of my career. With TC I worked Xmas day in 1973, and most others to date.

Contrary to "the rules" the Lady of My Life and our 1st canine child went to work on the 25th in a Control Tower close to "Les Chute Niagara" (now a flight service station) and watched the icewine grow before we knew what it was!! Oh, to be that age again.

This Christmas we will repeat the ceremony but in a different Control Tower, now for Nav Can't, and without the latest canine child that passed in September.

Doctor Daughter, not even a twinkle in my eye in 1973, will be on duty in the ER at a hospital in YYZ, the "Little One" on a Christmas hiatus from her Masters may come with us "to work".

We tend to forget what wonderful and blessed lives we lead. Everyone needs to suck back and reload occasionally. I agree with Steam "Show me yours, I'll show you mine" and we will celebrate!!

I once I said here "when it was no fun I'd stop" -- Well ... It ain't no fun anymore ... 14 more sleeps ... last day is the 27th.

On to something else.

Merry Christmas & Happy New Year.

[IFG]

A few years ago I spent Christmas in Bahrain on a layover. The hotel was fully decorated for Christmas including a giant Christmas tree in the lobby. They even had a complete traditional Christmas dinner for anyone who chose to partake. This year, the Christmas tree is already up in the hotel in India and I suspect a Christmas meal will be available. Funny how these predominantly non-Christian countries don't take offence to celebrating Christmas but it's becoming more difficult to do so at home. Sad really.

Hi, Rich - I suppose that's one perspective; another might look at how many similar displays of such comprehensive cross-cultural hospitality one runs into over here. Not to even consider any possible hegemony in "our" culture encroaching more and more into non-christian societies (no doubt any islamic handymen would not be impressed at all). Some people in the Middle East are characterized as determined to destroy our way of life. Dispassionately observed, whose "way of life" may seem be, at least culturally, more threatened by this kind of stuff?

More generally, WHOGAS whether a business or airport authority in our neck of the woods puts up or takes down a tree, or says "happy holidays" (which expression I've blithely used for years), or whatever other inconsequence resuscitates threads like this? Attempting to avoid offence, even if prodded by crass commercialism, seems at worst a harmless, if sometimes thankless motive. Why all the spleen? As if "Christmas", however one celebrates it, is threatened in the slightest.

Cheers, IFG

[Lakelad]

YYZ judge gets her 15 minutes.

Tree Should Stand: Premier

Since there is no policy, each ministry makes its own Xmas decisions

Dec. 14, 2006. - Toronto Star

Premier Dalton McGuinty says it's "unfortunate" that a Toronto judge banished a Christmas tree from the lobby of a downtown courthouse this week.

"I think it represents a misunderstanding of what we are working so hard to build here in Ontario," McGuinty said today, noting Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu and other faiths' celebrations are marked at Queen's Park.

"We enjoy the wonderful privilege of building a pluralistic, multicultural society," he said, adding no one should be "asked to abandon their traditions."

"What we're saying is let's share in those opportunities. Let's better understand those celebrations," he said.

Justice Marion Cohen who oversees administration for the Ontario Court of Justice at 311 Jarvis St., ordered a small artificial Christmas tree, decked out in lights and ornaments, moved to an administrative corridor on Monday. In a letter to staff, she said it is a Christian symbol that might alienate people of other creeds and cultures.

The premier said the judge's move "reflects a mistaken understanding of what we're trying to do here."

"It doesn't offend anyone when we celebrate Diwali at Queen's Park or celebrate Hannukah at Queen's Park," McGuinty said. "That's part and parcel of who we are."

A spokesperson for the attorney general's ministry said there's no ministry policy covering Christmas trees and that it's up to the discretion of each courthouse to decide how to handle the situation.

It's not the first Christmas tree to come under fire this season. Fourteen Christmas trees were removed from the Seattle-Tacoma International Airport earlier this month after a rabbi threatened to sue for not displaying a menorah.

After a national outcry, the rabbi backed off and the Christmas trees were returned. The rabbi's lawyer said he wasn't asking for the trees to be removed, only the addition of a menorah.

Meanwhile, fierce public debate forced a Florida landlord yesterday to lift his ban on Christmas decorations that came with a threat of eviction for tenants who didn't comply. The landlord said he was merely trying to limit property damage and uphold lease provisions that prohibit tenants from attaching anything to the exterior of their units.

"It is - and forever will be - a Christmas tree,"