Air Canada pilot strike vote open.

[Turbofan]

[FA@AC]

57 minutes ago, Turbofan said:

You speak like you think we have no leverage.

You must also believe you have no leverage.  That's unfortunate. You have more than you think

I actually think that all of us who are negotiating now or who will be within the next few months are in a very good position.  

That's separate from a belief that the government is likely to intervene either to prevent a strike if it can find a way to do it or to shut one down soon after it starts.  In the meantime, the threat of a work stoppage puts intense pressure on the company to settle, and I don't discount that either.

I'm more interested (at least in the case of my own group's negotiations) in what achieves the best outcome.  I'm hoping that a deal will be reached so that we can carry on without disruption.  If that doesn't happen, the equation becomes more complicated to my mind that it seems to be to yours.

If government intervention did occur, would we end up better off than we would have been had we settled for the company's final position before we took job action?  We might, since AC would have a hard time pleading poverty today as its balance sheet has improved considerably.  On the other hand, my impression is that ACPA would almost certainly have done better at the table than it did in FOS when things broke down.  Would we get a better deal after taking job action?  That's hard to quantify, since different members have different bargaining priorities.  Even considering only the salary component of the contract, would the difference between the last deal offered and the deal achieved after a strike be sufficient to offset the loss in wages during job action?  If an agreement on how to shut down isn't in place, ALPA or its members could face significant costs in accommodation or in getting home from downroute when seats on other carriers are scarce.

You seem to believe that government is going to stay hands-off, and that you'll do best by striking if it comes to that.  You might be right.  In the meantime, there's still time to reach a deal and my hope is that the parties get there.  

 

Edited August 31 by FA@AC

[UpperDeck]

Turbo....from the bleachers.

You have stated that AC has no interest in further negotiations. Basically, ALPA presented a wage demand and AC said no and declined to respond with a revised wage offer. You have characterized that position as a refusal to negotiate.

Respectfully, I disagree.

One of the first rules of negotiation is to never negotiate against yourself. That is; I demand $100. Opposite party says "No!" I then say; "How about $90.?"

That is negotiating against yourself.

Second rule of negotiating is.....always try to get opposite party to negotiate against themselves!!

Hence, I suggest that a refusal to "counter-offer" is in fact " continuing negotiations".

 

[Turbofan]

30 minutes ago, UpperDeck said:

Turbo....from the bleachers.

You have stated that AC has no interest in further negotiations. Basically, ALPA presented a wage demand and AC said no and declined to respond with a revised wage offer. You have characterized that position as a refusal to negotiate.

Respectfully, I disagree.

One of the first rules of negotiation is to never negotiate against yourself. That is; I demand $100. Opposite party says "No!" I then say; "How about $90.?"

That is negotiating against yourself.

Second rule of negotiating is.....always try to get opposite party to negotiate against themselves!!

Hence, I suggest that a refusal to "counter-offer" is in fact " continuing negotiations".

 

We both agree negotiations are a strategy.  
 

So what strategy might ALPA be persuing with the media they have chosen?

VS

What AC has chosen with its media and their strategy?

 

Niether of them are fulsomely accurate are they.  Who is the target audience they are both trying to influence and why?

 

[Seeker]

On 8/30/2024 at 10:55 PM, Turbofan said:

Who is the target audience they are both trying to influence and why?

 

Enlighten us.  APLA is obviously mindful that their own members are reading and following what is disseminated publicly and AC is clearly speaking to their customers and investors but who is the target audience - the government?

[Vsplat]

No longer have a dog in this fight, but I'd like to know how close the annual cost of satisfying the union's demands is to the total annual bonus payout to the upper levels of management.

Vs

 

Edited September 3 by Vsplat

[deicer]

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/business/2024/09/04/air-canada-offers-pilots-a-30-pay-boost-as-strike-deadline-nears/

Air Canada Offers Pilots a 30% Pay Boost as Strike Deadline Nears

(Bloomberg) -- Air Canada has offered to boost the pay of more than 5,000 pilots by about 30% within the next three years, according to people familiar with the matter, as it seeks to prevent a strike. 

Pilots at Canada’s largest airline would received a minimum 20% increase up front, followed by annual raises over a three-year period, said the people, asking not to be identified because the discussions are private. Pilots with one to four years of service would receive more, the people said.

The offer means that a captain with 10 years of service flying a widebody aircraft such as a Boeing 777 with a current salary of just over C$350,000 ($259,000) per year may see an increase of more than C$100,000 over the life of the contract, the people said. The airline’s offer also includes improvements in pension and health benefits.

Air Canada and the Air Line Pilots Association have been in talks for more than a year. The last contract, a 10-year deal that was ratified in 2014, provided pay increases of about 2% annually. The pilots haven’t received a raise since last year. 

Air Canada pilots are paid less than half of what industry counterparts receive, the union has said in previous statements.

ALPA’s local head, Charlene Hudy, declined to comment on the specifics of the proposal. But entry-level wages for pilots are an issue, she said. “One-quarter of our pilots have a second job, with almost 80% of those needing the job out of necessity,” she said. “We are trying to change that.”

A meeting between the parties is expected later this week. As of last week, the talks had “completely stalled,” Hudy added. 

In August, the pilots voted 98% to give the union authorization to strike, and they’re in a position to walk off the job in the middle of September if there’s no deal. The airline introduced a rebooking policy for customers with travels between Sept. 15 and Sept. 23.

The union seeks to close the pay gap with large US airlines, which have given their pilots substantial pay increases. Last year, ALPA reached a four-year agreement with United Airlines Holdings Inc., providing pilots a total compensation increase of as much as 40%, including an immediate pay boost of 13.8% to 18.7%.

“When it is in force, we want our pilots to remain the best-paid commercial pilots in Canada by far,” Air Canada spokesperson Peter Fitzpatrick said by email. “We are open to any solution to reach a reasonable settlement, including arbitration.”

Canada’s No. 2 airline, Onex Corp.-controlled WestJet Airlines, agreed to a contract in 2023 that included a 24% compensation bump over four years.

[neverminds]

Clearly those numbers were leaked to the press by  AC  management. Trying to get the public and politicians onside- “can you believe those greedy pilots wouldn’t accept a 30% raise?”

[Turbofan]

20% upfront would leave AC pilots behind both WJ and Porter for pay.  The only reason Fitzpatrick makes the highest paid in Canada remark is because Air Canada has the 777.

It’s a deliberately disingenuous statement.  It might garner public support but internally it’s viewed as a slap in the face.

Much like the previous statement where AC stated the average pilot wage has increased over 2 1/2 times greater than inflation. Straight up gas lighting if you saw how they came up with that beauty.

A few thousand AC pilots hired in the last 5 years, the primary group with second jobs, are getting a first hand look at what AC really thinks of them.

I don’t see how this ends well. Either avenue, a strike or another forced arbitration.  After the last forced arbitration I think many have learned that you can’t sit idle if it is tried again.  The consequences have been too sever.  

 

[Malcolm]

31 minutes ago, Turbofan said:

20% upfront would leave AC pilots behind both WJ and Porter for pay.  The only reason Fitzpatrick makes the highest paid in Canada remark is because Air Canada has the 777.

It’s a deliberately disingenuous statement.  It might garner public support but internally it’s viewed as a slap in the face.

Much like the previous statement where AC stated the average pilot wage has increased over 2 1/2 times greater than inflation. Straight up gas lighting if you saw how they came up with that beauty.

A few thousand AC pilots hired in the last 5 years, the primary group with second jobs, are getting a first hand look at what AC really thinks of them.

I don’t see how this ends well. Either avenue, a strike or another forced arbitration.  After the last forced arbitration I think many have learned that you can’t sit idle if it is tried again.  The consequences have been too sever.  

 

Re the new hires, since westjet etc were hiring at the same time as AC was the decision to work for AC because, perhaps, of the long term higher paid jobs on the bigger airplanes?

[Turbofan]

23 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

Re the new hires, since westjet etc were hiring at the same time as AC was the decision to work for AC because, perhaps, of the long term higher paid jobs on the bigger airplanes?

No.  It takes 25 plus years to get to that 777 CA job. It was more the expectation that AC was going to have to pay the going rate for pilots.  That AC wouldn’t be able to keep their pilot discount intact.  If that proved wrong, then we will obviously see a rethink.

In the end though AC will have to pay their pilots the going rate.  The question is simply how ugly this gets between now and then.  How much impact that has on a few thousand fairly new pilots moving forward.

I don’t think I have ever seen AC pilots this disenchanted this early in their career at AC. It’s an eye opener for many and the junior half of this group is the most militant.  Far more militant than anything AC has seen in the past.

They make nothing.  They work second jobs. They drive Uber. They use the food bank. They control the Union. They won’t think twice about burning the place to the ground.

I think AC management, as was ACPA, is completely out of touch with what they are dealing with.  
 

 

[Malcolm]

12 minutes ago, Turbofan said:

 

I don’t think I have ever seen AC pilots this disenchanted this early in their career at AC. It’s an eye opener for many and the junior half of this group is the most militant.  Far more militant than anything AC has seen in the past.

They make nothing.  They work second jobs. They drive Uber. They use the food bank. They control the Union. They won’t think twice about burning the place to the ground.

I think AC management, as was ACPA, is completely out of touch with what they are dealing with.
 

 

Curious re their poor pay etc. how do they compare in the 1st few years with Flair or Westjet. When to Flair and Westjet peak and passed by the AC juniors or ??????

Regarding dischanted, are we perhaps seeing the result of generational gaps / expectations.  

[Turbofan]

Our new hires make about 1/2 of WJ and Flair.  Encore and Porter start higher than AC as well.

Thing is AC uses these same new hire wages as a way to paint pilots as unreasonable and it is driving anger for those in their first 5 years

For example if our new hires make half of Flair and want equal.  AC’s narrative.  Pilot wants unreasonable 100% raise.

 

[Kip Powick]

5 minutes ago, Malcolm said:

Curious re their poor pay etc. how do they compare in the 1st few years with Flair or Westjet. When to Flair and Westjet peak and passed by the AC juniors or ??????

Regarding dischanted, are we perhaps seeing the result of generational gaps / expectations.  

While the pay is low and daily costs are high, the extreme militancy demonstrated by many can partially be explained by an employed  generation of "sense of entitlement and gentle parenting" individuals. ..........you see it everyday, everywhere 

[Seeker]

4 minutes ago, Kip Powick said:

While the pay is low and daily costs are high, the extreme militancy demonstrated by many can partially be explained by an employed  generation of "sense of entitlement and gentle parenting" individuals. ..........you see it everyday, everywhere 

I think you're wrong here Kip.  These are not unskilled minimum wage staff demanding "stuff" for free.  These are pilots who have paid far more than you might realize to get where they are and want a fair wage. 

You might see the "entitled" when you are out and about but these guys aren't them.

[Turbofan]

49 minutes ago, Kip Powick said:

While the pay is low and daily costs are high, the extreme militancy demonstrated by many can partially be explained by an employed  generation of "sense of entitlement and gentle parenting" individuals. ..........you see it everyday, everywhere 

Ouch kip,

I fail to see how wanting what you and I had is “entitled”

I view it as wanting equality.  In fact calling them entitled for wanting equality?  That is what ACPA did and now what AC is doing. It’s going over badly.  We know how the first one ended.

I do however think you are on to something though.  I think AC Flight Ops management is thinking the way you described.  If it is, their situational awareness is off.  They have an entrenched disciplinarian management approach that doesn’t go over well when an employee perceives injustice.

I actually think it is the management culture that is a large part of the driving force behind where we find ourselves today.  Not the young people.  Managements historical billy club approach to Human Resources is out of date and won’t serve the company well.  I think AC is about to learn this lesson the hard way 

I have been a Captain now for 20 years at AC. I have watched multiple waves of new hires during that time.  There is no difference in this crop.  Pilots are pilots are pilots throughout the generations.  In fact I have said this in the past and it applies now.  AC is very good with its hiring.
 

 

[Kip Powick]

51 minutes ago, Turbofan said:

Ouch kip,

I fail to see how wanting what you and I had is “entitled”

I view it is wanting equality.  In fact calling them entitled for wanting equality?  That is kind of what AC is doing.
 

 

First.....I understand what they want but if they say they could care less if  " AC burned to the ground" well that  is an unwanted attitude and does little to make any progress. Why be militant ?? If their attitude is that far right wing then........move on...because according to posts, everybody makes more that AC  so there must be better places to go......

Remember in the "OLD" days when new hires were told that they would be in the left seat in five years and they went home and told the wife that they could plan on that progress so the expensive house, the two cars, a boat, etc. was ok to purchase...AND then AC started to slide backwards due to the economy, and other factors, and these junior guys were the first to start screaming that they were told their future was "golden" and were entitled to move up the ladder but.... they did not. I realize what I just posted did not concern a wage disparity, but it did show how quickly individuals have a sense of entitlement when things change.

Those that were "offended" left but there was always pilots waiting in the wings to fill the spots.

Yes, I agree that perhaps their pay is not acceptable, and AC walks away and is waiting to see what happens and naturally, I am not privy to the bargaining process, but it looks like the Government is not prepared to step in...yet... 

What I don't understand is why the "Militants"  joined AC in the first place if everyone else is making more upon joining "XY" airline. Has there been a drop in wages since they joined or is their problem totally the result of the economics in Canada?

SEEKER..It really doesn't matter how much you paid to become a pilot or how inconvienced you were going from company to company to find work. Your new employer, (AC), doesn't care and nor should they. You are qualified to do the job so they hired you and you must have known the wages upon being hired. Now that the economy has slid sideways for awhile, perhaps a raise is justified and again I must stress I know nothing about the $$$ on the table, but if the pilot negotiaters have dug their heels in and have indicated they are not moving.......well I guess we just wait and see.

[Turbofan]

Kip,

 

Wages went up around AC while we were in a ten year agreement.  WJ, Flair, Porter have surpassed us in the last 2-3 years.

To be fair.  "Burn the place to the ground" is my descriptive term.  Not theirs.

I am using it to emphasize how determined this group is.

You have been gone for a while.  You don't see some of the bully management tactics.  There is no respect.  Zero.  

I fully support the junior ranks and their quest to address the issues here.  Work/life balance has gone to crap on the narrow body. 

We have RP's working over 21-22 days a month plus training.

Home that little is no life.  This place has just gotten to a tipping point. Where people are fighting back.  20 years post bankruptcy and it's only gotten worse.

98% of the pilots don't vote to strike for no reason.  The junior pilots are not the only ones who are fed up.  Everyone is.  It just turns out that the leadership for change came from the Junior ranks.

To be honest?  I'm appreciative 

 

[Malcolm]

If AC is such a bad deal now, what lured them to join (not so long ago)?   How new are the "junior" pilots and did they join knowing the AC wage structure at the time?  Was it better or worse than the competition?

[Turbofan]

Malcolm,

There is only a single legacy carrier in Canada.  For the type of flying.  Air Canada is it.

Whether you agree or not.  Many people joined this company determined not to accept what was offered.  Rather they joined with a determination to turn it into the job it once was.  The job they want.

Some may not understand why.  Some may think too bad then.  
 

It’s the profession.  Leave it better than you found it.  Although lost for awhile.  It’s back

[deicer]

Some very specific dates mentioned here. Just curious as to why.

[AvWatcher]

The primary reason that the new hire wages are so low, is that for many negotiations, ACPA, which was dominated by senior pilots, used the phrase "take from the unborn and give it to us". As a result, starting wages kept dropping, while the high seniority pilots reaped nice increases. While that worked for AC as well, you can't blame them completely for the low starting wages.

[Specs]

Two things about the negotiations I don't understand are

1) Why aren't Pensions factored in as part of the total compensation.  

2) ALPA is now doing the negotiating instead of ACPA and they have a wider concern than what the AC pilots get.  Whatever they get here affects negotiations with other unions and carriers so given the results of the WJ negotiations aren't they more likely to recommend that AC pilots accept the offer?

 

Edited September 5 by Specs

[Turbofan]

3 hours ago, deicer said:

Some very specific dates mentioned here. Just curious as to why.

 

Even taking this to 23:59 on the 17th requires a complete wind down of the company starting about 3 days prior.  Then days if not a full week or two to get back to normal ops.  That is without even a strike actually occurring.

WJ did the same.  A controlled wind down and back up.

 

 

 

 

 

[Turbofan]

7 minutes ago, Specs said:

Two things about the negotiations I don't understand are

1) Why aren't Pension factored in as part of the total compensation.  

2) ALPA is now doing the negotiating instead of ACPA and they have a wider concern than what the AC pilots get.  Whatever they get here affects negotiations with other unions and carriers so given the results of the WJ negotiations aren't they more likely to recommend that AC pilots accept the offer?

 

No ALPA won’t be asking the AC pilots to accept wage and working conditions inferior to what AC pilots made pre bankruptcy.

This is about a bankruptcy recover contract.  We don’t care what WJ makes.  We are the only carrier in North America not to have yet recovered from our 911 losses.  
 

In fact ALPA is more like. What the heck is going on in Canada? Why have you not recovered?