Encore pilots

[wizard]

500 Encore pilots have unionized. Sorry did not attach a link for the story.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, wizard said:

500 Encore pilots have unionized. Sorry did not attach a link for the story.

Here you go:

WestJet's 500 Encore pilots officially join union; company 'disappointed'

 

CALGARY HERALD

Published on: November 30, 2017 | Last Updated: November 30, 2017 5:04 PM MST

A culture change underway at Calgary-based WestJet Airlines has deepened after 500 pilots with its regional carrier Encore formally joined an international union.

The Canada Industrial Relations Board, a quasi-judicial tribunal that reviewed the union drive, certified the Air Line Pilots Association as the bargaining representative for Encore pilots.

The move paves the way for the group’s first negotiations with management.

“We look forward to putting ALPA’s abundant resources to use and helping the Encore pilots gain a stronger voice in the decisions that impact their careers and collective future,” Capt. Dan Adamus, ALPA Canada’s president, said in a release.

WestJet, which once prided itself on a non-unionized corporate culture, has been forced to contend with an increasingly organized workforce.

A majority of WestJet pilots have joined the same international employee group, while other union drives are underway by Unifor, the United Steelworkers and the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers.

“We are disappointed by this outcome but we remain committed to working constructively with all WestJet employees,” WestJet CEO Gregg Saretsky said in a statement.

“Our core values and culture of ensuring a great guest experience will not change as we concentrate on the continued success of the organization.”

[wizard]

Thanks Malcolm .

[blues deville]

I guess this group felt like poor cousins to their “jet pilot” friends. Now one big happy family. 

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, blues deville said:

I guess this group felt like poor cousins to their “jet pilot” friends. Now one big happy family. 

Or more likely we are seeing how much the WestJet culture has changed.  Dare we blame it on the millenniums or perhaps the drive of new leadership?    

[blues deville]

Well I wouldn’t discount the millennial factor because a good percentage of them haven’t been flying for very long. The recent demand for young pilots has exceeded the normal supply line so these are people who may not fully appreciate the new equipment or the nice routes they are flying. I was in an YVR Starbucks line recently behind an Encore FO. I could tell because he didn’t need to shave yet...and proudly wearing his ALPA lanyard. Best part was his iPhone ear piece so we could all hear his “so interesting” conversation with what was probably another FO by the topics being discussed. I’d bet he’s never loaded or will ever load an ice filled 45 gal. drum into the back of his brand new Q400.

 

[Wolfhunter]

7 hours ago, Malcolm said:

Or more likely we are seeing how much the WestJet culture has changed. 

Change and expansion is virtually unavoidable. From an outsider perspective (mine) it seems that WJ has almost become the new Canadian. It took a while, but they seem to have abandoned virtually every founding principal that Clive proudly affirmed. Hopefully they will avoid “rapid expansion and mindless competition for market share” syndrome that (to me) would be evidence of the final stage of metamorphic change.

[UpperDeck]

Speaking of " changing cultures" ( but AC and not Encore), I commented some time ago on my belief that there is a growing divide between cabin crew and flight crew. I was told by a " new hire" that there was a " non-fraternization" suggestion during training. I wondered whether that was generational or in fact company policy.

Leaving that aside, I sense that in years gone by, the relationship between cabin and flight crew developed into mutual trust through hours slogging together up the seniority hill. A typical route to mainline required accumulation of hours at regionals etc where one or two flight attendants shared the same routes with the pilots to " less travelled" destinations and shared a beer at the same watering holes. I know some here can attest to walking picket lines with flight attendants carrying signs right alongside.

Now we have new hires travelling on B1's asking Captains if they can use crew rest bunks if they get PY instead of J. 

Where do they get that sense of entitlement? Tough for the Captain to tell a " fellow pilot" no but here are two guys hired 17 months ago asking for permission on an aircraft that they're not trained on knowing that the Captain will have to provide a briefing when time permits.

I would have thought it was sufficient that they were on the aircraft in priority to other " pass travellers" with MANY more years of seniority.

Maybe it is generational or maybe it is because of the recognition that their timing is impeccable---- qualified when demand exceeds supply.

Not for them the duress of furlough---they weren't born yet!!

[deicer]

And that is why there is a movement afoot to return to DOJ for pass travel.  Alphabetizing priority only feeds the entitlement.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Wolfhunter said:

Change and expansion is virtually unavoidable. From an outsider perspective (mine) it seems that WJ has almost become the new Canadian. It took a while, but they seem to have abandoned virtually every founding principal that Clive proudly affirmed. Hopefully they will avoid “rapid expansion and mindless competition for market share” syndrome that (to me) would be evidence of the final stage of metamorphic change.

As far as being the New Canadian , still too small  and the Canadian Employee group was and remained loyal right up to the bitter end.

[j.k.]

On 02/12/2017 at 8:51 AM, UpperDeck said:

Now we have new hires travelling on B1's asking Captains if they can use crew rest bunks if they get PY instead of J. 

Where do they get that sense of entitlement? Tough for the Captain to tell a " fellow pilot" no but here are two guys hired 17 months ago asking for permission on an aircraft that they're not trained on knowing that the Captain will have to provide a briefing when time permits.

I would have thought it was sufficient that they were on the aircraft in priority to other " pass travellers" with MANY more years of seniority.

Maybe it is generational or maybe it is because of the recognition that their timing is impeccable---- qualified when demand exceeds supply.

Entitled? Sounds like they are asking to be able to stretch out a bit. 

Are you a 777 Captain? If so, why don't you say "No" if it puts you out so much? If you aren't, why do you care?

What if they weren't a "demand exceeds supply 17 month new hire" what if they were a 10 year guy? 20+ year guy? 

I've certainly seen all seniority levels in the bunk on pass travel/commuting. I've been in the bunk for a sleep on pass travel/commuting even DHing, I found the Captains always offered it up, made sure I was taken care of as much as they could when I introduced myself.

[AIP]

6 hours ago, j.k. said:

Entitled? Sounds like they are asking to be able to stretch out a bit. 

Are you a 777 Captain? If so, why don't you say "No" if it puts you out so much? If you aren't, why do you care?

What if they weren't a "demand exceeds supply 17 month new hire" what if they were a 10 year guy? 20+ year guy? 

I've certainly seen all seniority levels in the bunk on pass travel/commuting. I've been in the bunk for a sleep on pass travel/commuting even DHing, I found the Captains always offered it up, made sure I was taken care of as much as they could when I introduced myself.

Well said, as it should be.

Take care of each of our brothers, what a concept.

[UpperDeck]

11 hours ago, j.k. said:

Entitled? Sounds like they are asking to be able to stretch out a bit. 

Are you a 777 Captain? If so, why don't you say "No" if it puts you out so much? If you aren't, why do you care?

What if they weren't a "demand exceeds supply 17 month new hire" what if they were a 10 year guy? 20+ year guy? 

I've certainly seen all seniority levels in the bunk on pass travel/commuting. I've been in the bunk for a sleep on pass travel/commuting even DHing, I found the Captains always offered it up, made sure I was taken care of as much as they could when I introduced myself.

I'm afraid you missed the essential point. The crew bunk is intended for CREW REST.....not the convenience of airline employees who happen to be pilots and who are travelling for leisure purposes on a pass. However.....and much more importantly.....one is required to be qualified on the aircraft to access the crew bunk.

No...I am not a Captain. Why do I "care"?. The point of discussion was the possibility of a generational gap to explain what was once accepted behaviour and what is now expected emoluments of employment as a pilot.

[j.k.]

Incorrect. 

The Pilot is not required to be qualified on the aircraft. If they aren't qualified they must be made familiar on emergency equipment and exits. Same as if they are traveling in the cockpit jumpseat.

I would suggest your opinion is a minority and bottom line is it's up to the Captain on how his seats are used. I am sure a 777 Captain has the balls to say "No" if that's his preference or someone comes off as an entitled dick.

So if you do indeed care, you shouldn't - it's a courtesy between two professional colleagues and neither one of them is you. 

[Fido]

and people wonder why some pilots get no respect

[j.k.]

Please elaborate rather than insinuate Fido.

Bottom line, it's the Captains' jump, alleging generational gap differences is irrelevant and I don't see it. 

Making an issue here where there is none.

[J.O.]

1 hour ago, Fido said:

and people wonder why some pilots get no respect

Tone aside, please elaborate on anything he said that wasn’t true.

[UpperDeck]

8 hours ago, j.k. said:

Incorrect. 

The Pilot is not required to be qualified on the aircraft. If they aren't qualified they must be made familiar on emergency equipment and exits. Same as if they are traveling in the cockpit jumpseat.

I would suggest your opinion is a minority and bottom line is it's up to the Captain on how his seats are used. I am sure a 777 Captain has the balls to say "No" if that's his preference or someone comes off as an entitled dick.

So if you do indeed care, you shouldn't - it's a courtesy between two professional colleagues and neither one of them is you. 

I thought I initially said "qualified or briefed". In any event, acknowledged that if the occupier is NOT qualified, they must be briefed by the Captain. Perhaps a minor inconvenience depending on timing but nevertheless a distraction ---if done properly?

I may very well be in the minority ( a position with which I am familiar) but I remain of the opinion that a pass traveller with a seat should not be accessing crew rest bunks absent exigent circumstances. BUT....I readily acknowledge that a Captain might choose to extend an invitation to a friend without prompting and as a gesture and in that case, it would seem consistent with well-worn tradition.

You said in your initial response that you would introduce yourself to the flight crew when travelling as a pax. My question is ----why? If the loads are bad and you had submitted a request for the js, then understood. But otherwise?

" Hi, Captain. My name is John. I'm new to the company and wanted to introduce myself." Personally, I don't see most Captains now responding; " Nice to meet you, John. If you're not in J, do you want access to the crew rest bunk?"

You said you don't see this as " generational". You may be right. However, I had a sense that in years gone by, it was the passage of time that gave one the " testicular fortitude" to impose upon a Captain whereas now, it seems possession of an ATP suffices.

But you're also right in stating that access to the bunks is irrelevant to me. I'll never see one...and I'm okay with that. I was reacting to 1) a recent event and 2) what I perceived as a correlation between that event and an " attitudinal evolution" which I attributed to a " generational change".

Just one other thing...." professional courtesy". In my experience, one does not " shop" for the privilege. It is voluntarily extended by one who anticipates reciprocity.

 

[Kip Powick]

17 minutes ago, UpperDeck said:

You said in your initial response that you would introduce yourself to the flight crew when travelling as a pax. My question is ----why? If the loads are bad and you had submitted a request for the js, then understood. But otherwise?

Probably the main reason, (I also introduced myself) , was that in the unlikely event that one of the  pilots became incapacitated during the flight , the cabin crew knew there was another pilot in the back, may not be qualified on type, but could certainly assist with the flight.

[UpperDeck]

1 hour ago, Kip Powick said:

Probably the main reason, (I also introduced myself) , was that in the unlikely event that one of the  pilots became incapacitated during the flight , the cabin crew knew there was another pilot in the back, may not be qualified on type, but could certainly assist with the flight.

Apologies for being slow on the uptake but who did you inform as to your presence.....flight deck or cabin crew?

Regardless, I understand your reason for an introduction. I recently read an article in which it was stated that cabin crew identified travelling FA's and pilots as potential resources in the event of an incident where familiarity with procedures was essential. They also identify the " able bodied" in case a more muscular intervention was required. Lol

[Kip Powick]

 

flight deck or cabin crew?

Cabin crew....why bother the pilots ? They have enough to do prior to flight and should assistance  be required, at least the  IC FA would  know where there was a pilot.  

There would no need to be fully qualified on type, the two up front are fully qualified and the odds of both being "ill" is not likely but an "unqualified on type"  pilot  knows  the radio procedures, where the levers etc. would be,  more of an asset than someone who has never sat in a cockpit, or even flown an aircraft.

[j.k.]

I try to introduce myself to my colleagues anytime it works, in the boarding area, if workload seems low preflight, after a flight, whatever, and yeah it pretty much goes like that - "I'm John on the Boeing in Toronto and I'm not really a new guy, I just wanted to say hello and thank you for the ride"... a brief moment of small talk follows and I leave it at that, and yes, most times in fact the question is "did they get you a good seat in the back"... 

We are nearly 4000 now spread across aircraft, across bases, and I like to meet my colleagues when possible, my impression has been that they do too... that way I know when I see them who to get a pint for. 

I believe most of us try to and want to look out for one another where we can, whether the jump, the bunk, etc... maybe that's inappropriate to you... but if we don't watch out for each other NO ONE ELSE WILL... 

I'll leave it at that... I'm not going to carry on and hijack this thread further and debate every question... maybe we can start a new thread if you think it's a hot issue.

[AIP]

Only time anybody other than on duty flight crew, is in the OFCR is on a leg that doesn't require its use (ie, YVR-YYZ).

from there active Pilots only, is the way it is written, and the CA must ensure they are briefed on egress and emergency items.

F/A's and other staff are NOT permitted its use (they can use the regular jumpseats up front with Captains concurrence.

 

 

[wizard]

This conversation went sideways. Was about Encore pilots that have unionized into using bunks. You guys are too much LOL.