Pilots urged to avoid full body scanning

[Kip Powick]

Pilots' unions for US Airways and American Airlines are urging their members to avoid full-body scanning at airport security checkpoints, citing health risks and concerns about intrusiveness and security officer behavior.

"Pilots should NOT submit to AIT (Advanced Imaging Technology) screening," wrote Capt. Mike Cleary, president of the U.S. Airline Pilots Association, in a letter to members this week. USAPA represents more than 5,000 US Airways pilots.

"Based on currently available medical information, USAPA has determined that frequent exposure to TSA-operated scanner devices may subject pilots to significant health risks," Cleary wrote.

American Airlines pilots have also received guidance from their union, the Allied Pilots Association, to decline full-body scanning. APA represents 11,000 pilots.

"It's safe to say that most of the APA leadership shares my view that no pilot at American Airlines should subject themselves to the needless privacy invasion and potential health risks caused by the AIT body scanners," APA president David Bates said in a letter to members.

Both unions are concerned about the effects of repeated exposure to small doses of radiation emitted by the backscatter technology used in some of the Transportation Security Administration's full-body scanners.

In the course of their daily duties, pilots are routinely exposed to elevated levels of naturally occurring atmospheric radiation, which increases at higher altitudes.

The unions urge members to choose security lines that use standard metal detectors whenever possible. When faced with AIT screening, pilots should opt for enhanced pat-downs, although this security procedure also concerns the unions.

Unions are encouraging pilots to request private pat-downs. USAPA urges members to make sure a witness is present during the procedure.

USAPA refers to incidents where Transportation Security Administration officers may have implemented the screening technique inappropriately.

One pilot described his experience as "sexual molestation," according to Cleary's letter. Bates wrote, "There is absolutely no denying that the enhanced pat-down is a demeaning experience."

Both unions are looking for long-term solutions to airline crew screening.

"Pilots really should never have been subjected to this type of screening, ever. Because when we walk through these machines, within a few hundred yards we get into what potentially could be the biggest weapon on the airport, and that's the airplane," said James Ray, a USAirways captain and spokesman for USAPA.

Pilots are well screened with security background checks and regular medical and mental health checks, he said. The union suggests implementing alternate identity verification technology that would allow pilots to bypass regular passenger screening.

The TSA said it welcomes further discussion with pilots and emphasized the agency's role in addressing security threats.

"We are frequently reminded that our enemy is creative and willing to go to great lengths to evade detection. TSA utilizes the latest intelligence to inform the deployment of new technology and procedures in order to stay ahead of evolving threats," the TSA said in a statement.

[Don Hudson]

I dont blame the AA pilots one bit and support their views the APA response isnt rabid resistance to security measures but a measured response to what have been at times intense frustration with the way the TSA conducts itself towards flight crews.

There have been times (and incidents) when, as a flight crew member, I have felt security was more about power than it was about making sure the captain wasnt a threat to the flight s/he was about to operate.

Like all crew members, I have been security-cleared which means my entire life was and is (because I have an active airside pass for my present work), an open book to the RCMP and who knows what other security agency around the world? I have no privacy as a crew member and I am not granted the right to expect such privacy who knows where my financial records go each month besides Visa and my bank? Ive been finger-printed numerous times and Im sure a file exists somewhere in Washington on me for some of the asides I made and questions I had the boldness to ask as captain while watching diplomats from China being excused from security processes board my aircraft from San Francisco to Toronto. They had refused to permit security to look inside their brief cases. I was going to refuse them boarding but knowing that the captain is always suspect in the eyes of the TSA and the focus would be on that problem and not the breach of security which would likely have caused a political problem for important people. Where is the security in that if flight crews can be stopped and even prevented from going to work?

I quite understand that flight crews can inadvertently present an opportunity for others to carry out nefarious actions but such circumstances would be, I think, as rare as someone with ill intentions getting hold of a flight crews gun and using it. The only incident I can recall in this ridiculous and stupid policy of carrying in the cockpit is the accidental firing of a gun by a crewmember in the cockpit. I think John Wayne casts a long shadow.

Quite literally and factually, we are now behind locked cockpit doors (illegal to be open while in flight), with a fire axe and free use of tons of kerosene. Where are the incidents or the security breaches from our group that demonstrate the need for such treatment? Where has reason and trust gone? Are we to take off our belts, shoes and submit to other arbitrary processes out of fear of further action by the authorities? Where does such authority end? The TSA has enormous powers of detention - who monitors the TSA? Have you ever talked to someone whose name was mistakenly on the "no-fly" list who has tried to have their name removed? - they are guilty and must prove innocence.

The question is, who balances the need for national security with those precious liberties which we have because of the sacrifices the men and women whom we honor today both in Canada and the US have made?

Security and credibility and the resulting belief and trust in the process go hand in hand there is nothing that flight crews want more than an air travel system that is as secure as possible and, like we have submitted to a clinically-conceived cockpit environment in which our every word and action is subject to examination, we have submitted to these processes for very good reasons.

But in many cases the TSAs and at times, CATSA's behaviour towards flight crews does not convey that sense. The TSA has been scratching in the same place for too long and now the sore is festering. Such treatment of aircrews is creating a less secure environment out of a sense of growing hostility and contempt for arbitrary and exuberant processes towards those whose interests are the same, supposedly, as the TSA's.

I am, (and a populace should be) deeply suspicious of any process or set of rules that privileges nationalism and patriotism under the heading of security. Are such lessons already being forgotten - is today not a reminder of such fundamental principles? There are refreshing signs that these precious principles are not being forgotten, including this sign from the AA and USAirways groups.

The alternative solutions are apparently unpalatable in North America profiling and vigourous, targeted action combined with an effective, light-on-its-feet intelligence community unfettered by bureaucratic or political silos. In fact there is profiling against flight crews, identified by our uniforms, but that is apparently acceptable. Why? Perhaps it is because profiling flight crews are an easy way to portray security as "doing its job" because crews are indeed "high-profile" and cannot protest without serious consequences. Whatever the reason, it is time to get back to the job of security.

Clearly this is a hot button for flight crews, and rightly so. Security processes are not conceived to permit a rational, (not emotional or political) discrimination between known security risks, and professional aircrews who, once past the daily tribulations of pat-downs and body-scans are entrusted with the nation's airliners.

The cracks in the process are now showing respectfully and politely, but showing. What is the TSA's solution? It is going to take far more than pleasant, reassuring words from the TSA's leadership to reinvest the process with the effectiveness and credibility it deserves in preserving our collective national security.

Don

[Kip Powick]

Purely Pilot Points

Don, et al,

I am sure you all remember when we had the “walk through metal detectors” and we all felt comfortable going through them…….and then we had a very big knee jerk reaction to 9/11 with respect to pilots being treated like passengers.

The only way the issue in regards to body scanners and invasive body pat-downs is concerned is if the pilots make a stand……….and refuse both.

If I were ‘King’ I would send out an edict to the Press, all the airline CEOs, and TSA, FAA, and TC stating that……

……….. effective, (for example) 01 June, (((ooohaa the summer traffic time))), no airline pilot shall submit to body scanners and/or fairly invasive body pat downs.

…………pilots will accept screening with the pre 9/11 walk through metal detectors but under no circumstance will pilots be subjected to body scanners or invasive/close body pat-downs.

All the threats in the world from any, and every government body would soon diminish if the pilots held their ground….but if Canada is an example of airline unions having the balls to do the unexpected…you, that are still flying, are doomed.

Sound ridiculous?? To some, perhaps, but everyday the pilot profession is looking more and more like a bunch lemmings.

When are those in the pointy end going to take a stand????( No airline can function without its 'drivers')

PS.. I am available as a consultant for just a few $$$

[Mitch Cronin]

the iris scan should cover it just fine.

[Don Hudson]

the iris scan should cover it just fine.

Mitch;

A good suggestion, but with some questions... - in a moment.

My (American) wife and I use the iris-scan all the time for our Nexus border pass into both countries. It works very well and is unobtrusive and fast. The process of entering either country at the airport takes about 3 minutes and one hands the customs and immigration officer a card that is printed by the iris-scan machine.

I think what deeply offends and angers flight crews about the present security process is the complete absence of recognition of the submission to process by professional crews and the resulting in-depth investigation into one's entire life that one, (and one's relatives) must endure in order to obtain a RAIC pass.

In fact, one time I simply took my RAIC pass off and put it with my wallet, belt and other personal items to make a statement - that the thorough (and expensive) investigation that the pass was obtained by was useless and that the pass itself was worthless and ineffective as a piece of identification given the fact that flight crews were constantly subjected to the same screening procedures as the every passenger, and now more than most passengers - the choice is pat-downs or radiation.

Perhaps the real security, as contemplated above, (intelligence, profiling, etc) is happening underneath all this apparent activity.

I hope so. In the meantime, the airline pilot community is watching the TSA with enhanced interest.

Are we doing 'pat-downs or radiation' in Canada or is this exuberance just limited to the US? Is there an issue for ACPA and ALPA with CATSA?

Mitch, the questions that may be raised regarding the iris scan may be:

- it only identifies a person but does not examine what they have on them or what they are carrying. There still needs to be a process to do this to avoid crews becoming an inadvertent participant, as described in my first post. It is the inappropriate exuberance, not the actual need to know that is at issue;

- it is a serious privacy issue which, though voluntary at the moment, will be in other databases from other jurisdictions (and countries) linked forever. I think that requires extremely careful thought and social action but given the propensity of a minorityparliament to listen, and the peristaltic political process in the United States as a result of the recent elections, the "security bureaucracy" is permitted a life of its own to interpret the Constitution as it will, as permitted by the Patriot Act. We are actually in a state of affairs, especially in the United States where if you question such processes, your future within the bureaucracy is not assured, nor, therefore, is your income or pension. Where have we seen this kind of social control for ideas before?

- it may be only a matter of time before iris mimicry can be achieved - this is just a thought, not a suggestion that it can be done.

Justification for pat-downs or radiation has not been provided by the TSA and so appears arbitrary and driven by power, not by need. Neither the TSA nor the CATSA have addressed the obvious questions concerning cockpit crews who, after passing the body-examination, will be behind locked doors in flight. Let us take this scenario to the extreme to see what makes sense: Security is based upon finding harmful instruments; there is no security process in place at the airport which can just identify human intention. At some point, the substantive processes in place must be trusted by those who designed them to identify and differentiate legitimate, serious security threats while not making the vast majority endure increasingly invasive and inappropriate actions which are based upon the assumption of suspicion or guilt by one's own government.

Don

Edited to finish response to Mitch

[Kip Powick]

Don said.............

There still needs to be a process to do this to avoid crews becoming an inadvertent participant,

PILOTS ONLY ....How does one become an inadvertent participant unless...............you have a nutbar like the dude on Air India and there is NO WAY to stop that kind of thing.....

I really think many people out there are over thinking the problem.....Go back to what worked for crews before, (re-pilots). Prior to 9/11 with the security we had in place, was there any record of a pilot becoming a terrorist after boarding the aircraft.

Guys you have locked cockpits, armed Marshalls, pasengers almost getting naked prior to boarding and the pilots all going along with this crap without a concentrated front that will stop making pilots look like a threat to a safe flight.

Time to stop talking and get on with it...but as I said in a previous post...no one has the ----- to get'er done...so sad

[Miles]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39758088/

[chockalicious]

Some momentum may be building against some of the idiocy.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AA55S20101111

[boestar]

I would love to set up full body scanners for these journalists and TSA execs and even government officials to enter their place of business. See how they like it.

[boestar]

Perhaps the general public will actually realize (in the US) that their civil liberties, which they defend so hard, have been removed from their Constitution under the guise of SECURITY. The Patriot Act and the addition of the TSA and Homeland security after 9/11 was the end of freedom for the american people. It was the end of privacy for them as well. The american government has given the right to detain without cause, to search and seize without cause and to wire tap without court order. Any american should be ashamed of what their government has done to them and also be scared of what the future governments WILL do to them.

Once one of the most powerful economies in the world has bee brought to its knees by simple terrorists who have won every battle in the "War".

[RGT]

http://www.optoutday.com/

[Don Hudson]

malcolm;

Had a dream last night that all unions / associations representing Pilots & Cabin Crew, came together and presented the authorities with a united front on this issue.... ..... ..... Like most dreams I doubt this will ever happen. Too Bad

Well, wait a sec...is it that easy? In fact we know it isn't, so why set up a strawman argument to knock over and then claim it's "too bad" that "unions can't come together"? We could say the same thing about our favourite management problem whatever that may be...it's as tough to manage as it is to herd cats. In fact there are many aspects to "presenting a united front" which have to be decided upon.

A bit of a diversion into discussing "the workforce":

Realistically, the notion of a "united front" is itself open to question. Most employees these days are "issue-challenged" and "issue-fatigued", so it takes a great and obvious wrong to foster a united front. In the thirties, unions were controlled by beatings and murders of workers but today methods must be more subtle yet "effective" so business can continue degrading the status and working conditions of employees. You have to keep in mind too that all unions today ironically do not have the support of most workers, (membership is about 26% of all employees in Canada about half that in the US), nor the present government, nor labour law, nor the Minister of Labour, nor the courts and nor, certainly, business, so gathering steam and focussing on one issue, especially this one, against a tide of hostile reactions is itself somewhat of a dream which must be encountered and come to terms with. Today we do not have a strong workforce in which succession plans are in place for business's benefit. We have instead a shrinking, splintered, increasingly lower-skilled workforce with no unity whatsoever, which is paid poorly, which have no retirement plans and no hope for a "successful" retirement and which cannot afford to have families to replace such workforce in the future. Even as many manfacturing jobs have been outsourced by private enterprise to cheaper countries and our own workforce reduced to piecemeal work at lower wages to increase profits for shareholders, care of the workforce (broadly known as the "welfare" of the workforce - now a dirty word and not allowed in boardrooms), is necessary so such workforce will be there over time to keep business a going concern. Business has an interest in ensuring such succession but has done a poor job of sustaining the workforce and has in fact acted to destroy a competetent workforce. Unionism, portrayed narrowly as "corruption", actually balances these economic forces so that sustainability of a capitalist economy is possible, but of course these are left-wing views which have been dismissed decades ago, even by most employees.

Back to dreaming...

Most understand the frustration but the problem isn't with the original "dream". Because such laudable dreams are not fulfilled easily or quickly doesn't mean they aren't worth dreaming but the expectation that resolution comes easily and, because it clearly doesn't/can't sets up a false sense of entitlement and points the finger in the wrong direction. Dreams are only the beginning - there isn't a dream that hasn't required tough slugging to make happen.

This goes to the dialogue on "rights". Everyone has "rights", therefore at some point, rights are going to collide. Who arbitrates such collisions such that one right "prevails" over another? Who sets how much that right should prevail over another? In the case of free speech or racial equality that right is without counter-example. In the case of one's right to continue working past eighty and another's right to retire while healthy and there are other things to do in life, there are nuances in "the dream" which do not necessarily occlude others' rights, and such cases need hard work, good politics and careful thinking to come to terms successfully and fairly.

Time to stop talking and get on with it...but as I said in a previous post...no one has the ----- to get'er done...so sad

Kip, hear you. However I think we need to know more. Do we have the same "body-scans or radiation" problem in Canada or are you imploring ACPA to support ALPA's and the APA's efforts in the US? You address "pilots" which I think is appropriate focus because we, (along with university professors who have had to leave the US for expressing such "anti-American" views), are the current "target group" bearing the brunt of the Patriot Act but do you see as well the disappearing civil rights issue underneath the visible problem? Do you see the similarities with history and the irony of this discussion on November 11th?

I would like to see ACPA act as well and believe the leadership has the balls to do so but what direction and what kind of such support do you envision and are calling for? What's the metric? I'm not challenging your claim that action is in some way required but the matter must be carefully thought out - do we know that it isn't on the agenda of that plans aren't being created as we speak? Please understand, I'm just asking, not defending actions - it isn't time for criticizing either (action/no action) yet, in my view and I'm not in on any private conversations re this issue - far from it. I think ALPA and the APA are doing the right thing; what support do you envision we can provide?

A nation's security is its right and the US has both the right and a clear need to defend its borders and its population against threats of security. But where has this right and obligation taken the US? Is this merely an over-reaction which will self-correct or is patriotism to be the new measure of loyalty to country? To me, loyalty in any form is the courage to criticize as well as the courage to support. The notion of "patriotism" does not however, encompass such "hostile" behaviours as criticizing one's own, and that is a problem.

History shows us very clearly that nationalism and patriotism are dangerous games which can turn populations into "criminals". History also shows that ideas and freedoms cannot be jailed or stamped out but they can be silenced through fear.

A culture of silence grows out of fear (of losing one's job, of being detained without warrant, of losing one's reputation) and is the first sign of a dying democracy. Some see history repeating itself in a nation that was based upon the notion of freedom and democracy. That is the larger question here.

Don

Edited to add quote

[Kip Powick]

Don,

My point is this.................too much talking, whining etc....no action.

Lets just take the 3 "airlines" in Canada........get the "Brass Hats" of each pilot group to agree to affirmative action and present the authorities, (TSA /CEOs, TC) with an ultimatum.....

In a nutshell.........We, the pilot associations for AC, WJ, and Porter have advised our respective pilots to refuse full body scans and invasive pat-downs effective 01 May 2011. Should the pilots be advised that they will not be allowed to pass security unless the TSA mandate, as it stands, is adhered to, our respective pilot corps will refuse to operate their designated flights.

This is a non-negotiable item, however, pilots will accept metal detector scanning as per the procedure pre 9/11.

This isn't revolutionary dialogue, this is the "dog being tired of being wagged by the tail."

Wasn't it FDR that said "we have nothing to fear except fear itself". There is no big mystery about this issue.....Pilots are being treated with contempt and I say enough is enough....get something going but not some mamby- pamby discussion behind closed doors that will take about 3 years to even come to a concensus as to what to do...

Pilots need to stand up, put that "A" personality out there and show they are united and not going to take this crap anymore.

Don ...all the talk about loss of jobs, fines, etc, is merely gravel in the soup. IF and it is a big IF , the pilots stick together, nothing adverse will happen to the drivers from 3 of the major airlines in Canada.

Surely to goodness, the authorities can see the repercussions of a "Canada wide pilot strike" where the all the pilots are ALL of the same mind set.

Does anyone really think that all the pilots for AC, WJ, and Porter are going to be fired at once........air travel is an intergal part of the economy.......now get out there and prove it !!

Apologies to AT and others not included in my rant......you can join "my dream" revolution if you wish.

[Kip Powick]

My views about the pilot corp and their apparent lack of action with respect to Security are well known, (if you have been following this thread), and I shall not comment on the issue anymore

Too bad that all the pilots in Canada are just watching ..... not doing anything about this situation...At least I have not read or heard anything positive as of this date.

I leave you with this link .........CNN today..(don't know how long it will last)

http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/11/12/travel.screening/index.html?hpt=P1&iref=NS1

Good luck.............

[boestar]

Hey Kip.....you for got JAZZ. A fair bit larger than porter.

just sayin'

[CanadaEH]

I'd be more interested in educating the public about how air travel isn't a right and that there is a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff that makes a $30M-$250M aircraft get you from A to B.

But, you know.. the inconvenience of being scanned is obviously more important.

[Maverick]

I'd be more interested in educating the public about how air travel isn't a right and that there is a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff that makes a $30M-$250M aircraft get you from A to B.

But, you know.. the inconvenience of being scanned is obviously more important.

I agree with your first point. As for your second I strongly disagree! I will NOT allow that machine to be used on me or my kids. That takes a lot of power to get that kind of image. There has been no long-term testing on low-level radiation like these machines. I will take the pat-down from the immigrant-first-job-in-Canada guy every time.

If that's offensive too bad, I've been patted down three times in YYC in the last 5 weeks and all 3 (different) agents were virtually unintelligible. I was not pleased.

[cp fa]

I'd be more interested in educating the public about how air travel isn't a right and that there is a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff that makes a $30M-$250M aircraft get you from A to B.

Air travel is a product, the sale of which provides a livelihood for most of us on this forum. I don't think it's in anyone's best interest to tell passengers that if they don't like it they should stay home.

But, you know.. the inconvenience of being scanned is obviously more important.

Being given the choice of being seen naked by a stranger while being exposed to potential health risks, or having a stranger run their hands over your genital areas is far beyond an inconvenience, it's a violation.

[inchman]

While I do consider that things have gotten out of hand over the past few years in terms of the security that aircrew (and passengers) are subject to, we actually have it pretty good in Canada. Essentially, we do get through security based solely on our pass and a fingerprint. Canada is the only first world country in which we can do this and it surprises me that we are still able to do so.

I'm certainly not for pat-downs or radiation and unless they are actually "doing" EVERYONE before they board, these techniques are really just for show. A terrorist really doesn't care if he gets caught. On the other hand, security does prove itself quite often, at least with sharp objects and more than a few guns in the U.S. Many overseas stations have a big box of knives and scissors taken from passengers on show near security. They may not have been used against crew or other passengers, at least in a premeditated way, but under the influence of the owner or someone else, we will never know what might have happened because they didn't get on board.

If commuters are to be treated like passengers, so be it, IMO. That's what they are. If someone works at McDonalds, they don't get to just walk behind the counter when they're not working. When they're not working, they're customers. Any of us that do go through LHR know that it's possible to follow the LAG rules, so it's not that tough for commuters to do the same. If you want to carry more than the carry on limit, check a bag. Simple.

I don't want to get into details but this is much more complex than "I already control the well provisioned missile" and treating it like an unnecessary convenience issue is well short of the point. An agent at the security post once answered a query about why crew were subject to screening by asking "What would you do if a terrorist was holding your kids right now?". It doesn't matter how many RAIC security checks you've been through and what you think you would do...

[Kip Powick]

................It doesn't matter how many RAIC security checks you've been through and what you think you would do.................

[inchman]

................It doesn't matter how many RAIC security checks you've been through and what you think you would do.................

Easy for you to say.

[Kip Powick]

Easy for you to say.

Yes it is, and even if I was not a "Dot" I would not be going through what you guys are accepting.......do something !!!

[BoomerPete]

Slightly off topic here, but only slightly.

I've just come through the domestic security line here in YVR as a passenger. I was asked to show my boarding pass no less than 3 times while traveling the short distance from the entry to the baggage scanner! Now I appreciate that there's a need to check these things, but 3 times within a distance of 50'? More amazing was that the line was virtually non existent so I was just being passed from one security person to the next with each watching the other check my pass before dutifully doing the same themselves. At what point did/does this become overkill and is there anybody anywhere able to decide when enough is enough? It seems we're headed down a one way street with every incident and every technological development resulting in further duplication of work and further intrusions of personal dignity.

Pete

[Spinnaker]

Slightly off topic here, but only slightly.

I've just come through the domestic security line here in YVR as a passenger. I was asked to show my boarding pass no less than 3 times while traveling the short distance from the entry to the baggage scanner! Now I appreciate that there's a need to check these things, but 3 times within a distance of 50'? More amazing was that the line was virtually non existent so I was just being passed from one security person to the next with each watching the other check my pass before dutifully doing the same themselves. At what point did/does this become overkill and is there anybody anywhere able to decide when enough is enough? It seems we're headed down a one way street with every incident and every technological development resulting in further duplication of work and further intrusions of personal dignity.

Pete

I've been less than 5 feet between guards at YVR asking for boarding pass. It's like they don't trust each other. Just smile and nod, smile and nod.

[inchman]

Yes it is, and even if I was not a "Dot" I would not be going through what you guys are accepting.......do something !!!

I don't see what we're "accepting" that is so bad. There's absolutely nothing that a few thousand frost back pilots are going to do that will affect what happens south of the border. They could care less if a few dozen flights to Canada get canceled.

In Canada, where we potentially might have some pull if we needed to exercise it, we are subject only to holding our card up to a reader and having our finger scanned and I haven't seen anything that would indicate that that will change.

Not exactly what I call being violated.