Time for Winter Tires

[Mitch Cronin]

Is it really on the commute to work that you want to 'perform'????

Yes.

Absolutely every time you're out on the roads you need your tires to perform. "Slow down" is a relative notion isn't it?... Slower than what? Slower than the speed at which your tires are unable to react to the changing needs would be nice, wouldn't it?... but that's a way lower speed in the snow if you haven't got good winter tires on... and sometimes, if you need to go that slow, you're a hazzard and shouldn't be on the road at all ....- in fact, I think I'd argue that all cars without winter tires in the snow are a hazzard.

[Canus Chinookus]

SOLD! Bought a set of Goodyear Nordics, with rims, filled with nitrogen, and a 5 year warranty for defects for $750 taxes included in YEG.

[Specs]

For the most part the roads in YYZ are mostly wet in winter, not snow or ice covered so I've always had this concern with winter tires. For the amount of times I'd need extra traction in snow, I'd rather have the good wet/dry braking of an all season tire. If it's snowing, I aint going but if I must it will be very slow. Considering the avg spd in a snowstorm in YYZ or YUL, going slow would hardly make me a hazard.

Maybe if I lived outside the city?

[mo32a]

They are more correctly called winter tires rather than snow tires.

The rubber compound in summer/all-season tires becomes quite hard in temps below 5C. Even if there is no snow you are better off with winter tires on bare pavement at these temps, as the rubber compound in winter tires remains quite soft thereby improving performance.

[Specs]

On ice, definitely.

Reading consumer reports though, In cold, dry or wet weather, or on cleared roads (most of my driving), their verdict is fairly clear. Winter tires are only better at stopping than the all seasons they replace at extremly low temps.

When I read some of the promo stuff, they tend to differ from consumer reports. I can't call them objective though.

TC states " all seasons are adequate as long as conditions are moderate but once temps are consistently below -10 degrees celcius all season tires become less effective and don't come close in severe snow." This would more closely agree with what consumer repots tests show.

[Moon The Loon]

For the most part the roads in YYZ are mostly wet in winter, not snow or ice covered so I've always had this concern with winter tires. For the amount of times I'd need extra traction in snow, I'd rather have the good wet/dry braking of an all season tire. If it's snowing, I aint going but if I must it will be very slow. Considering the avg spd in a snowstorm in YYZ or YUL, going slow would hardly make me a hazard.

Maybe if I lived outside the city?

Even I will admit that after about 3 years' of use, "all-seasons" are pretty useless at a quick stop in slippery conditions.

I'm being swayed by the discussion in this thread.

Keep those cards and letters coming in!

[Specs]

Even I will admit that after about 3 years' of use, "all-seasons" are pretty useless at a quick stop in slippery conditions.

Slippery such as on ice and snow - yeah that seems to be the concensus

Slippery such as on cold wet slushy roads - that's not so clear. It's why I've never bought winter tires.

My own experience is that as recently as last winter, twice, my all seasons got me stopped at stop signs and then started again in a hurry to get out of the way as some guy, more than likely with winter tires, slid right through where I had been stopped moments earlier.

Driver attitude probably contributed as much as tire type. I spent two yrs full time skiiing in Ont and Quebec (stop snickering) with a FWD prelude and never got in trouble with all seasons.

I should add that I also buy a new set of all seasons every 2 yrs.

[J.O.]

My own experience is that as recently as last winter, twice, my all seasons got me stopped at stop signs and then started again in a hurry to get out of the way as some guy, more than likely with winter tires, slid right through where I had been stopped moments earlier.

If you're in Toronto, it's more likely that they were on all seasons or summer tires. The percentage of cars with winter tires is only somewhere around 25 to 30%. I've had more than enough occasions where I've gone around someone struggling to climb a gentle grade on their 3 yr old all seasons. I talked to a tire rep from Michelin at a car show a couple of years ago, and he said that even their best all seasons lose their winter effectiveness after 30,000 kms.

[Specs]

Quebec. That's why I qualified it with "more than likely with winter tires "

[Moon The Loon]

Slippery such as on cold wet slushy roads - that's not so clear. It's why I've never bought winter tires.

That was my experience related a few posts back. After about 3 years, they're really degraded for stopping performance on wet, city asphalt.

[newgirl]

Studded tires were banned in Sask in the 80's if memory serves me right. The reasoning being that with the freeze and thaw cycles and the clay soil , the roads were in a 'ell of a mess come spring. Of course the roads are always poor here due to the soil.

I had studded tires before the ban and loved them. Then all season radials came out and I stopped changing tires.

Luckily we don't usually deal with freezing rain and hills. Only 3 ft snowbanks and flat land.

My RAV4 with AWD gets me through the snow banks.

[Mitch Cronin]

"In cold, dry or wet weather, or on cleared roads [...] Winter tires are only better at stopping than the all seasons they replace at extremly low temps."

That statement is only true if you get cheap snow tires. Good ones will let you know how much better they are in all sorts of driving conditions.

Specs, sorry mate, but you've almost disqualified your opinion by saying you've never bought winter tires.

There is no way you can know how much better off you and all those around you are with winter tires until you try them. ...on ice, in slush, on "cleared" (yet still snow covered) road, or in deep snow, hard packed, loose granular, <-20c drifted granular... it doesn't matter... good snow tires will definitely be safer... even on dry, bare, but very cold road, as Mo said, the rubber compound is better to handle that.

[deicer]

Sorry Mitch, I'm with Specs on this one.

Technology is a wonderful thing. Having the best winter tire available will give you outstanding performance. I am not arguing that point.

Technology also leads to more crashes. When the monster SUV was the thing to have, everybody touted that you had to have one because of better traction. Yup, you got better traction, but only during acceleration. You still had the same braking capabilities as all the other yahoos out there. That's why, in the GTA, every time it snows, all you see are SUV's in the ditches.

I feel it will be the same with winter tires. Everyone will pat themselves on the back, compare performance, and still end up in the ditch because they will be travelling tooooo fast due to overconfidence.

As Specs said, Driver attitude contributes as much as tire type.

When people realise that they have to slow down because it is snowing/raining/cold, then we will see a lowering of collision rates.

For now, giving them better technology just allows them to still drive like stooges.

Just my opinion.....

Iceman

[Mitch Cronin]

I don't disagree with any of that Iceman. But I also think choosing not to put winter tires on in winter is akin to keeping bald tires on in the rain in summer. And it makes you a hazard the rest of us need to beware of. I can understand it only if you can't afford to put decent tires on... that wouldn't be anyone here.

"Having the best winter tire available will give you outstanding performance."

... if you acknowledge that then how can you choose not to have that superior performance? Do you drive with your family in the car? What about that car beside or in front of you with his kids in the car? Don't they deserve a better chance? Do you want someone on the road next to you and your kids in what may ammount to an unsafe vehicle?

Quebec's got it right. Make it law. Clearly many people don't care if they're a hazard.

[boestar]

Technology....Hence the reason I deactivated my ABS. ABS causes the car to take LONGER to stop in a panic situation that it does if proper braking technique is applied. I am divided on Winter Tires though. I have used them in tha past and, as stated they definately help traction in SNOW. Some apparently help on ice but in southern ontario if you have ice you have salt and that leads to WET ICE to which nothing sticks... NOTHING. I have spent the last few years on good all season tires and have had no issues. I drive appropriately for the conditions.

The worst conditions are the one we had here this morning... NEAR freezing temperatures and LIGHT RAIN. The thin layre of water mixed with the cold temperatures make for very slick conditions sometiimes worse than Ice.

[deicer]

... if you acknowledge that then how can you choose not to have that superior performance? Do you drive with your family in the car? What about that car beside or in front of you with his kids in the car? Don't they deserve a better chance? Do you want someone on the road next to you and your kids in what may ammount to an unsafe vehicle?

Mitch...

You've missed the point. In the Greater Toronto Area, if that guy in the car in front of me has the best tech in his car, he probably isn't driving appropriately for the conditions because he is overconfident, and that negates the advantage of having the better tires.

I feel it would be better to mandate having drivers retested regularly to ensure not only that they have the proper skills to drive, but the right attitude.

That would make our roads safer rather than just legislating better technology in cars.

Iceman

[Mitch Cronin]

I understand Iceman, but I completely disagree that having better tires will make one overconfident and therefore less safe. By that logic the safest car out there is a 73 Vega on bald tires.

I'm thinking that's called "rationalizing" your decision, and it's usually only done when one has doubts or feels guilt.

[deicer]

No doubts,guilt, or fears, just years of observation.

[Moon The Loon]

By that logic the safest car out there is a 73 Vega on bald tires.

My first car was a Vega. Try to show a little respect!

[Kip Powick]

but I completely disagree that having better tires will make one overconfident and therefore less safe

Well here is an example..... When we lived in Colorado Springs we were subjected to some pretty weird weather and snow was one . It would snow and two weeks later it would be gone........but when it did snow some of the Y'alls would put on their "snow" tires and try to drive as if the roads were bare. The end result was that it was not unusual to see many cars in the ditch with full sets of snow tires on them. I think over confidence and perhaps a dash of stupidity was evident here.

I actually had a neighbour ask me if he thought snow tires would allow him to always do the same speed in snow that he did on normal dry pavement.........so I guess there are exceptions to every rule.

[Mitch Cronin]

... well... yah, some folks are stupid. ... ...what can ya say?

I'm still using snows. Both our cars have Hakkapeliitta's.

[conehead]

ABS causes the car to take LONGER to stop in a panic situation that it does if proper braking technique is applied.

From my own experience, I'm having trouble with that statement...

[Homerun]

Boestar, unless you have a lot of experience as a race car driver and practice threshold braking on a regular basis, then your chances of outperforming an ABS system are slim to none, especially in a panic situation. Also, the more sophisticated systems include variable brake distribution form side to side to compensate for different surface grip levels. (one side of the vehicle on gravel, the other on pavement). So unless you have 2 brake pedals in your car and use both feet to brake, ther's no way you can replicate this, let alone outperform it.

[boestar]

As a matter of fact I do have credentials from a few driving schools including BFG Racing School and have Skid control and recovery training. I also have had the BMW Advanced Driver Training.

ABS by design in a panic stop will "PUMP" the brakes (Iknow individually) in order to allow a locked wheel to begin turning again. Properly applied MAximum normal braking will stop the car is a shorter distance ALMOST every time. ABS is NOT meant to stop the car faster but is meant to allow CONTROL of the car while panic braking. In a non equipped car if one hammers the pedal the wheels will lock up, this will result in the car travelling along the same trajectory as it was at the point the brakes were locked (straight line).

Same situation in an ABS equipped car the driver will be able to control the car. The difference is that with the repeated releasing and applying of the brakes will not stop the car in the same distance.

The most efficient method of braking is applying the maximum amout of braking without locking the brakes at all. This allows the Rotor to absorb all of the energy not the tire. While in slippery conditions this becomes more difficult it is not impossible.

More modern systems on expensive cars that have traction control systems work better than the generation 2 system I currently have. This is mainly because they will REGULATE the brake pressure due to wheel speed. Where old systems were on or off new systems sense a slow down or speed up in comparison to the other wheels and apply or release as necessary. This system (TCS not ABS) works much better since the wheels never reach a locked condition. I have never experimented with the newer systems myself but DO BELIEVE them to be better than a human. No argument. But Standard ABS I do not like.

When racing on the Track at shannonville one is not allowe to have an ABS system active as it is deemed too dangerous in the event of a loss of control. There are times when you want the car to lock all 4 and carry on in a straight line instead of attempting to regain that control only to end up bass ackwards and in a worse position that before.

in 1998 whenI bought my 1st ABS equipped vehicle, I took time to experiment with the characteristics of its behaviour and very quickly became aware of the shortfalls of the system.

That all being said for the average (or below) driver on the roads in this country ABS is a good thing because in reality about 1% of the drivers on the road have any sort of formal skid control training (and that number is high). If a driver needs to stop he hammers the pedal and all is well in his eyes because he does not have to interact with the system. Just like an on/off switch.

Properly applied technique without the system will result in the brakes absorbing, more consistantly, the energy required to stop the vehicle.

This is MY OPINION based on MY EXPERIENCE only. If you look in my car you will notice the ABS light is always on. I have never had an accident as a result of this deactivation.

[conehead]

If you look in my car you will notice the ABS light is always on. I have never had an accident as a result of this deactivation.

If you do, will the insurance company have issues? Just wondering....