Mitch Cronin Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 As I read another thread here, I began to understand how a pilot could find himself in the following situation: [i was being towed at the time and was listening to both company "Stock" frequency, as well as apron] ...after the setup you can imagine where the arriving Embraer has to hold just off the T2 apron while a departure gets out of his way, and then being cleared to the gate: .... "Ummm Apron we're having some trouble moving here, ... maybe stuck in a pothole here.... or maybe something's wrong...." [later]"we're gonna need a minute here apron", "Toronto Stock it's a/c 3xx, we're not moving here at deltatango.... brakes are stuck or something... we've tried going to 40%...?" "Well try 60%" "Apron are we clear behind us to add some thrust?" "Ya go ahead" the aircraft then taxi's to the gate. ..... ... In the midst of all the methodical, logical, algorithmical and otherwise computer-like-but-human-executed behaviour.... can you sometimes forget you're the master of the machine? ....to some degree? ... or maybe that in spite of it's apparent complexity, it's still just a simple machine that pretty much does what you make it do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kip Powick Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Not sure where you are going, or if there is a question here. Most pilots know how much power is required to taxi under most circumstances and if an anomoly crops up then one has to weigh the different course of action. It would seem in this case the pilot felt he was using excessive power to taxi so probably pondered a stuck brake, cocked nose wheel, pot hole or something and was letting STOC know he had a problem. When stock said "use 60%" that might have confirmed what he felt he was going to do....cause he might also be consideing the consequences if he upped the power and really screwed up the aircraft, (mech problem), more that it might already be. The call to APRON was just a courtesycall so as not to blow anyone behind him off the taxiway.. ALL in all I think I probably told you stuff you already knew but tonight is my "idle at min thinking speed " evening regards.. Kip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Most pilots know how much power is required to taxi under most circumstances and if an anomoly crops up then one has to weigh the different course of action. It would seem in this case the pilot felt he was using excessive power to taxi so probably pondered a stuck brake, cocked nose wheel, pot hole or something and was letting STOC know he had a problem. Ya like a greasy old monkey stuck in the wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted October 12, 2006 Author Share Posted October 12, 2006 Hiya Kip.... I completely understand that min idle thinking speed. Where I was going isn't so hidden... When I heard/observed the episode I detailed (which was a long while ago btw), I was a little bamboozled about how a pilot could get himself so out of touch with his machine that he wouldn't have a better handle on what it would take to make the damned thing move on the ground.... I thought it had to be a lack of experience, but then I thought, "cripes the guy had to have been flying something else for a little while!.... surely he'd have a handle on powering the beasts around when they want to stick....? So I'm wondering now if it's trained out of them somehow, while they learn to "interface" with the software....? ... maybe the thought process somehow more readily jumps to "It doesn't want to do that....Why?...? I remember an awful experience I had with a 1975, computer controlled VW Beetle... No kidding, the thing had fuel injection! The first I'd ever seen at all, and certainly the first I'd seen in a VW! ...But suddenly I was almost useless at fixing the thing... whatever went wrong, I was never sure if it was the magic, or the machine.... First chance I got, I replaced that power plant with a good old, analog, carbureted version of itself. ...the old steam stuff... But these guys are moving to the new stuff, the magic, whether they want to or not.... and they probably do want to... But isn't there some value - as evidenced by that above example - in keeping a grip on the truth of the simplicity of the relationship? Me Pilot. You Airplane. Me say you do this, you do this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted October 12, 2006 Author Share Posted October 12, 2006 Ya like a greasy old monkey stuck in the wheels. Did someone forget to let the dog back in the cockpit? Looks like the little man's been touching something again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
handyman Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Did someone forget to let the dog back in the cockpit? Looks like the little man's been touching something again. hahaha..get back to work you! Have a good night! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Mitch: There have been a few incidents on the EMJ where the brakes would stay locked on even after the parkbrake was released so I'm not sure how knowledge of that possibility would have caused some doubt as to what was happening. I also question your recollection of the radio calls as I find it suspect that STOC would be giving the pilots any advice on how to operate the aircraft or that the pilots would accept direction on how to resolve such an issue from STOC. Are you sure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted October 12, 2006 Author Share Posted October 12, 2006 Howdy Seeker... Yessir, I'm not able to give exact quotes on all the radio stuff, but it went just like that for certain. The man thought he couldn't go, but he hadn't even really stepped on the gas. Please don't take it like I'm criticizing the poor guy.... you'll notice, I hope, that I've mentioned it was a while back, and for that reason I doubt there's a soul who could deduce who it was.... ...I'm trying to illuminate, or I'm asking about, what seems to me, at first glance anyway, to be a possibly less than desireable side effect of pounding all the magic through your heads.... ? edited after more thought to add: Of course the guy in stoc was going to suggest more power! The airplane was taxiing in, not heading out... the guy admitted over the radio he'd hardly touched the throttles to move (40%???? Please!!) ...and was hanging there asking for ..... help? So it came: "Ya, step on the gas dude." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Mitch: Isn't the Magic there to prevent people (not only pilots) from messing up the machine. It is still push forward go fast pull back slow down on the throttle. Push forward houses get bigger pull back houses get smaller on the column. The physics remains unchanged, the magic just allows us to not test the limits of physics. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seeker Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Mitch; No, I don't take it as if you're being critical at all. It's just very unlikely that a pilot would look to STOC for advice in this situation. I would guess it was more of a talk-it-out or just verbalizing the situation and that happened to be on the STOC frequency. Perhaps it was by way of explaining why he wasn't moving into the gate rather than looking for assistance. Further to the point, I don't think the pilot forgot that he could just add a sh1tload of power and maybe break free. The situation as you describe it doesn't need immediate action and therefore the guy driving has the luxury of taking his time. The fact that he took some time or verbalized the issue does not indicate that he was lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted October 12, 2006 Author Share Posted October 12, 2006 The fact that he took some time or verbalized the issue does not indicate that he was lost. Well now that's a darn good point that I hadn't been considering.... He might have got there himself anyway.... still seems curious that he wouldn't have got there sooner intuitively, but maybe that's just a true indicator of experience on type?... Thanks Seeker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Interesting thread. A couple of comments, some already made by others. Of course, we need to start with the disclaimer that none of us (as far as I know) were actually on the flight deck so we are armchairing the poor crew. 1) Sounds like the pilot was advising STOC of a delay. I sure hope that STOC really did not tell the pilot to add power, as there are many things that make that a bad idea and STOC is not supposed to give ANY operational advice. By law. Perhaps you meant Maintenance or Dispatch? At least these two agencies can make some recommendations within limits. But not STOC. I agree with Seeker, the call to STOC was more likely a sitrep than a consultation. 2) I think the premise that the pilot had forgotten it's just an airplane doesn't give credit to the pilot for a larger situational awareness, that it's an airplane on a busy ramp where increasing power can hurt everyone around the aircraft. If indeed the reason for non-progess is a wheel in a depression, say a main sunk in a soft spot, putting on a lot of thrust may send chunks flying and do some serious harm. Even on the humble little Embraer. 3) I am curious as to what the aircraft was doing immediately before the crew encountered the problem. Were they in motion and something went 'clunk' and they stopped, or were they already stopped and trying to get going again? Means a lot, that difference. FWIW Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted October 12, 2006 Author Share Posted October 12, 2006 Hmmm, well I guess this isn't the first time I've taken raw materials and wound up building a can and filling it with worms... I'll see if maybe I can remove at least a few worms now...? Ok, STOC to you guys is evidently not what I think of... No doubt it's me that has it wrong, but STOC to me is the guys I used to work with who end up sitting in an office someplace (I've never seen it) at the end of a radio, saying things like "try resetting your kadiddle breaker" or Ok, we'll get a wrench out to check on that for you.... Then they get on another radio (on a frequency our maintenance grunts on the ground are tuned into) and they call for whoever is needed. I thought they answered to the name "STOC" or "STOC Maintenance"... When I see some of these guys I haven't seen in years and ask them where they've been, they answer "stoc". ?? Anyway, it was one of those guys (a guy I used to work with... an AME) who suggested the use of more power, after the fellow had asked for help. The aircraft had been taxiing along Delta and turned in at Delta Tango and stopped short of the apron to wait for a departing airplane or two to get away from his gate - I think we were in his way as well, as we passed by in front of him, but I don't remember what gate we were on or which one he was headed to. I have no way of knowing if he'd set his park brake while he waited, or if he just stood on his brakes, but the tarmac under and around him was consistently smooth....no pot holes, - he couldn't see underneath of course. Sorry if it seemed like I was trying to belittle the man... that ain't it. It was just an incident that really stuck out to me.... No doubt the crew were both concerned about things like their jet blast and possibilities of stuck brakes.... I just thought it wouldn't have happened in an older airplane where the man behind the sticks knew by sound and feel how much power he was applying. I wondered if maybe something in the man/machine relationship had gotten blurry... and I can see how that could happen as people get their heads entirely buried in the computer wizardry of these fandangled machines.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AAS Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Entering the ramp at DT its a bit uphill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCDU Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Mitch- STOC is the agency we talk to for operational concerns- gate assignment, catering, ramp delays, ticketing and sales issues. Sounds like you're talking about the frequency assigned to "Maintenance" with which we talk to real, live mechanics. Although we often consult with the latter, we would not ask STOC for advice. I can't speak for those particular pilots or for the Embraer operation in general, but one possible factor in the thinking could be our natural tendency to baby the machinery. I find that AMEs, due to their superior systems knowledge, are more accepting of the "get a bigger hammer" philosophy. Quick example: I once had a sliding window stick open on the A320. I couldn't get it free so I called maintenance and out came a guy with a big-bejesus screw driver that was about 3 feet long. I winced as he jammed the thing under the delicate-looking release lever, expecting the whole window to go kablooie. But, he knew what he was doing. With a very loud "sproing" the mechanism popped free. I wouldn't have had the guts to try that fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 STOC consists of ALL of the above including Maintenance. I do relief assignments up there from time to time. I can assure we ALL sit in the same room. You are talking to "a real live mechanic" but he doesnt turn wrenches any more he holds a chair to the floor and talks on a phone or radio for most of his day. Everybody should pay a visit to the STOC centre once to see what goes on in there. We look after EVERY aspect of every flight. It can be a VERY busy place. Drop in and say hello. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 boestar, as a STOC player, you have no doubt been briefed on the restrictions I noted above. STOC is operations coordination, Dispatch is operational control. The two can't be mixed..... Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fido Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 Entering the ramp at DT its a bit uphill. The real reason likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCDU Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 You are talking to "a real live mechanic" but he doesnt turn wrenches any more he holds a chair to the floor and talks on a phone or radio for most of his day. I don't mean to belittle the STOC people. Some of them try very hard and seem to be smart people. However, your maintenance man has a license, many years of experience and aircraft-specific training. He is qualified to start my airplane, taxi it around, fix it and give me advice. The rest of the people in STOC aren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 I think what mitch was getting at is that the pilot in question WAS talking to the Maintenance person in STOC. The Freq Mitch would have been using would be the Maint STOC freq. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boestar Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 VS: The aircraft was arriving and falls under operational coordination. Dispatch would have nothing to do with this aircraft. The pilot likely called STOC on the maintenance Freq. to say "I think I have a problem" The Maintenance controller would then advise a course of action "push it harder". B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vsplat Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 boestar, negative. Operations coordination takes place in parallel with operational control. Whenever the aircraft is off the blocks, it is under operational control. As I noted before, maintenance can respond to pilot requests for advice, but such communications are supposed to be routed through or monitored by Dispatch, even when taxying. Without airing more of this in a public forum, I suggest you check with one of the MLO's in Toronto for further. Vs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mitch Cronin Posted October 12, 2006 Author Share Posted October 12, 2006 You may be right MCDU... Thanks for that input. BTW, those windows tend to jamb open when someone sends them to their open stop like they were trying to slide it through to the tail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCDU Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 BTW, those windows tend to jamb open when someone sends them to their open stop like they were trying to slide it through to the tail. This one had just been greased. I didn't apply anything more than normal force, honest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conehead Posted October 12, 2006 Share Posted October 12, 2006 - STOC is the agency we talk to for operational concerns- gate assignment, catering, ramp delays, ticketing and sales issues. Sounds like you're talking about the frequency assigned to "Maintenance" with which we talk to real, live mechanics. Although we often consult with the latter, we would not ask STOC for advice. Be careful. We have Maintenance people working in STOC. When you call them on the radio, you call "Toronto Maintenance", but you are actually talking to an old AME who is sitting right beside the Gate Planner in STOC. This old mechanic will certainly give you advise about a problem, but I suggest you take it with several grains of salt. Some of the guys up there are very knowledgable. Some of them are not. Some of them are there because they are somehow injured, and they are on "modified duties". Some of them are there because they are extremely lazy, and they see this as a way of getting out of doing any actual work. Some of them are very incompetent. As I say, be careful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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